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Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 29, 2021 14:06:22 GMT 1
But that’s the point surely there are far too many who either can’t or don’t want to see through him, sadly. I think he is given a fair bit of leeway because of Brexit. We shouldn't forget why he is PM in the first place and why the Tories are sat on an 80 seat majority. We shouldn't forget that there were plenty of MP's and a parliament that spent years trying to overturn the result of the 2016 referendum. So when we talk of trust, selfishness, entitlement for example, I would think many people (on the leave side of things) don't have the best impression of a good few MP's and a parliament who tried to put a stop to Brexit. And I think that helps Johnson a fair bit. I guess how you voted in the referendum might have an influence on how you see things here. As what I am getting at is that if you don't have a particularly good opinion of politicians as it is (because of their actions around Brexit you may see them as corrupt, selfish, entitled, untrustworthy etc.), then you might be more willing to give Johnson some leeway. I think those four years would have changed the way many people view politics and politicians (and not in a good way). Hope that makes sense. I mean even if you don't agree with it, you know what I am getting at...
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Post by northwestman on Apr 29, 2021 14:21:15 GMT 1
I hear what you are saying. But lovable rogue? The guy is a Grade A . Anybody who can't see through the bluster and buffoonery and not find a deeply untrustworthy, entitled, selfish, nasty and vindictive individual is an appalling judge of character. This article sums him up quite nicely. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/29/sleaze-boris-johnson-careless-privilegePeople like Johnson have always been around. The most troubling question is how he came to be prime minister. Part of the answer lies in the sociologist Aeron Davis’s masterly study of the new power elites, Reckless Opportunists. Based on 20 years of interviews with people at the top of Westminster, the City and the media, Davis’s book argues that the new generation of leaders is “precarious, rootless and increasingly self-serving”. They reach the top sooner, career around scoring headlines or a few million quid, and then lurch off through the revolving door. They have neither ideology nor shame, and their chief legacy is to undermine the very institution they head. It is as true of George “nine jobs” Osborne and David “Greensill” Cameron as it is of Johnson.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Apr 29, 2021 14:25:28 GMT 1
That picture of him losing his temper with Starmer at PMQs doesn’t show a “loveable rogue”. The reality is he’s anything but that. The biggest issue for the Labour Party is that the working class identify with this bloke more than the party they’ve traditionally voted for. I get people saying Starmer should be going after the policies, but peeling back the mask is equally important. People vote on personality as well as policy. Hmmm. One of the problems with the first sentence is that the classification of class often used to justify it is that developed to help people sell things to us. The one very important drawback in is the classification of pensioners, even when they are (petty) rentiers. The working class look very different from what used to be the case. But they are still exploited by employers, landlords and as consumers. Irrespective of class there will be millions of people who have not dealt with people like Johnson at close quarters on an habitual basis who won't identify the behavioural traits. In fact, because the BBC have only just started highlighting the issues, there will be millions of people who are not aware of things like PPE contracts for publicans and jewellers etc. We do need decent people as politicians, as we do in leadership roles in every walk of life. But even if we did have such people and they became PM then people leading businesses would still have too much influence on politics, especially ones who are rentiers rather than entrepreneurs. The former - Greensill being a prime example - being particularly attractive to politicians and ex-politicians who want to develop a lucrative income stream.
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Post by ssshrew on Apr 29, 2021 14:53:07 GMT 1
But that’s the point surely there are far too many who either can’t or don’t want to see through him, sadly. I think he is given a fair bit of leeway because of Brexit. We shouldn't forget why he is PM in the first place and why the Tories are sat on an 80 seat majority. We shouldn't forget that there were plenty of MP's and a parliament that spent years trying to overturn the result of the 2016 referendum. So when we talk of trust, selfishness, entitlement for example, I would think many people (on the leave side of things) don't have the best impression of a good few MP's and a parliament who tried to put a stop to Brexit. And I think that helps Johnson a fair bit. I guess how you voted in the referendum might have an influence on how you see things here. As what I am getting at is that if you don't have a particularly good opinion of politicians as it is (because of their actions around Brexit you may see them as corrupt, selfish, entitled, untrustworthy etc.), then you might be more willing to give Johnson some leeway. I think those four years would have changed the way many people view politics and politicians (and not in a good way). Hope that makes sense. I mean even if you don't agree with it, you know what I am getting at... Yes total sense. Thanks.
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Post by ssshrew on Apr 29, 2021 14:55:00 GMT 1
Does a certain type of person go into politics or do even ‘decent’ people cha he when they get there because of the culture they find and have to work in?
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Post by northwestman on Apr 29, 2021 15:27:55 GMT 1
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9525487/Boris-Johnson-defends-keeping-powers-overrule-new-sleaze-adviser.htmlBoris Johnson today defended keeping powers to overrule his new sleaze adviser Lord Geidt despite complaints the PM being in control is comparable to 'a thief investigating a burglary'. The PM insisted the newly-appointed ministerial standards adviser will do an 'outstanding job' after he was tasked with reviewing the murky funding of the No11 flat refurbishment. Mr Johnson also stopped short of committing to publish the peer's findings, despite Labour and the chair of the independent Committee on Standards in Public Life warning that the premier should not be the 'ultimate arbiter' of whether there has been wrongdoing. Asked if he would release the report and follow any recommendations, Mr Johnson said: 'Well, I'm sure he'll do an outstanding job. I think what people are focused on overwhelmingly is not that kind of issue, but on what we're doing to take this country through the pandemic. I think we can all draw our own conclusions from this! Note that once again, for the umpteenth time, he moves away from the question without answering it and starts blathering away about anything else in order to deflect the questioner. Utterly pathetic technique used constantly by him, especially at PMQs. Prevarication and obfuscation on an industrial scale!
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Post by northwestman on Apr 29, 2021 18:21:40 GMT 1
Leaks have clearly been a problem for governments for a number of years!
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Apr 29, 2021 19:25:59 GMT 1
Does a certain type of person go into politics or do even ‘decent’ people cha he when they get there because of the culture they find and have to work in? For an insight into the type of people who want to be MPs, Isabel Hardman's book 'Why Do We Get The Wrong Politicians?' is a good starting point.
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Apr 29, 2021 19:42:10 GMT 1
Well that was a waste of PM ‘QS by Mr Starmer don’t ya think "I don't mind 1,000s dying of Covid or kids going hungry, but ask me to buy my own curtains and I'll rip your face off'
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Post by Exkeeper on Apr 29, 2021 19:53:20 GMT 1
Well that was a waste of PM ‘QS by Mr Starmer don’t ya think PMQ is always a waste of time because the tw*t refuses to answer the questions. He should not be allowed to get away with that. You would agree if this was a Labour PM.
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Post by mattmw on Apr 29, 2021 20:14:53 GMT 1
As a result of covid I'd lost contact with a few colleagues who work in the Westminster bubble, but caught up with one this week. Suggestion in the bubble is that sundays papers might be rather tricky for Johnson especially in light of what he said during PMQ's yesterday. I take that to read one Minister might be getting a bit leaky with what was said in cabinet
Thought at the time Stamers "we'll wait and see" comment after his question about what Johnson said was interesting, he seemed quite pleased with Johnsons response
Will also be interesting to see if the events of the last 10 days impact on any of the local election results.
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Post by Worthingshrew on Apr 29, 2021 20:56:56 GMT 1
Well that was a waste of PM ‘QS by Mr Starmer don’t ya think PMQ is always a waste of time because the tw*t refuses to answer the questions. He should not be allowed to get away with that. You would agree if this was a Labour PM. The Speaker should be able to judge whether the PM answered the question, and if not, it doesn’t count towards the 6 the leader of the opposition can ask! Never going to happen though.
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Post by cabanas2017 on Apr 29, 2021 21:04:24 GMT 1
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Post by Pilch on Apr 30, 2021 7:08:38 GMT 1
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 30, 2021 7:39:00 GMT 1
Is the mask starting to slip? Ask him about kids going hungry, 130,000 Covid deaths, high unemployment, 1% for nurses and front line NHS staff, exports down 40% to the EU, business going under at an alarming rate = meh. Ask him who paid for his new curtains...
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Post by Pilch on Apr 30, 2021 8:09:25 GMT 1
Is the mask starting to slip? Ask him about kids going hungry, 130,000 Covid deaths, high unemployment, 1% for nurses and front line NHS staff, exports down 40% to the EU, business going under at an alarming rate = meh. Ask him who paid for his new curtains... do I need to ask him anything about vaccines ?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2021 8:18:43 GMT 1
I know it's a big story so not dismissing it, but I don't think it's quite the disaster for Boris/Tories that some think it is, I get the impression that a lot of people don't care too much about it because of the timing, ie, we are in a pandemic, thousands have died, still living under restrictions, worried about the future.... so who paid for Boris's curtains isn't a major story. Yes in the world of politics its a big story, yes there are those who are anti Tory who will been to highlight the sleaze, however for lots of people in this country, they have bigger things to worry about about (or it could also be down to apathy and people just see sleaze from a politician and just think its nothing new)
Like I said, I'm not dismissing it and for me it's another example of a lack of standards for politicians & being held to account, I saw a right wing journalist say he's seen lots of politicians lie/deceive/dodge over the years, but has never seen someone refuse to answer a question as much as Boris has this week.
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Post by salop27 on Apr 30, 2021 8:24:45 GMT 1
Is the mask starting to slip? Ask him about kids going hungry, 130,000 Covid deaths, high unemployment, 1% for nurses and front line NHS staff, exports down 40% to the EU, business going under at an alarming rate = meh. Ask him who paid for his new curtains... As the saying goes you can only beat what's in front of you. Conservatives lead in the polls has increased again. Starmers got as much presence as the invisible man and the majority of the general public don't give a monkeys about curtains but about vaccine roll out😃.
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Post by ssshrew on Apr 30, 2021 8:28:16 GMT 1
Perhaps that’s why it is a story in a way. If he’s ducking and diving over this - what else is he avoiding?
I see the Boris story this morning is that his private telephone number is on a website. I may be being naive here but doesn’t he just have to change it immediately to solve the problem? If no one has bothered about it up until now what’s the problem? Just change it now.
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 30, 2021 8:38:24 GMT 1
Is the mask starting to slip? Ask him about kids going hungry, 130,000 Covid deaths, high unemployment, 1% for nurses and front line NHS staff, exports down 40% to the EU, business going under at an alarming rate = meh. Ask him who paid for his new curtains... As the saying goes you can only beat what's in front of you. Conservatives lead in the polls has increased again. Starmers got as much presence as the invisible man and the majority of the general public don't give a monkeys about curtains but about vaccine roll out😃. Would that be the vaccine rollout that slowed from a 7 day average of over 500,000 in March to less than 120,000 today. Germany on the other hand managed to hit just shy of 1.1million on Wednesday and contrary to popular belief is using the AZ vaccine to hit that amount.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2021 8:48:49 GMT 1
Would that be the vaccine rollout that slowed from a 7 day average of over 500,000 in March to less than 120,000 today. Germany on the other hand managed to hit just shy of 1.1million on Wednesday and contrary to popular belief is using the AZ vaccine to hit that amount. That figure is misleading as its only first dose, April was always going to be a heavy second dose month. Yesterdays figures (which were for Wednesday) there were 597k doses administered across the UK and it was 495k the day before.
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Post by Pilch on Apr 30, 2021 9:07:03 GMT 1
I know it's a big story so not dismissing it, but I don't think it's quite the disaster for Boris/Tories that some think it is, I get the impression that a lot of people don't care too much about it because of the timing, ie, we are in a pandemic, thousands have died, still living under restrictions, worried about the future.... so who paid for Boris's curtains isn't a major story. Yes in the world of politics its a big story, yes there are those who are anti Tory who will been to highlight the sleaze, however for lots of people in this country, they have bigger things to worry about about (or it could also be down to apathy and people just see sleaze from a politician and just think its nothing new) Like I said, I'm not dismissing it and for me it's another example of a lack of standards for politicians & being held to account, I saw a right wing journalist say he's seen lots of politicians lie/deceive/dodge over the years, but has never seen someone refuse to answer a question as much as Boris has this week. and equally important, who paid for the mr softee ice cream ? we need a full enquiry and if anything is found amiss this has to run its course, which means Boris will have two face the rap of , err yeah thats right, the prime minister
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Post by sheltonsalopian on Apr 30, 2021 9:33:23 GMT 1
An interesting article which explains the political shift happening - the working class moving to Conservative and the Tories beginning to lose their grip on the liberal parts of the Country. Strange world where the middle class vote Labour and the working class vote Tory but that's politics in 2021.
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Post by northwestman on Apr 30, 2021 9:33:46 GMT 1
and equally important, who paid for the mr softee ice cream ? we need a full enquiry and if anything is found amiss this has to run its course, which means Boris will have two face the rap of , err yeah thats right, the prime minister Askey's Ice Cream? Donors to the Tory party.
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Post by frankwellshrews on Apr 30, 2021 10:58:49 GMT 1
An interesting article which explains the political shift happening - the working class moving to Conservative and the Tories beginning to lose their grip on the liberal parts of the Country. Strange world where the middle class vote Labour and the working class vote Tory but that's politics in 2021. Now that the manufacturing and industrial base is eroded and whole swathes of the working class ate now pitched into the "gig economy" or other spurious self employment (or increased reliance on the welfare state), the middle class are the last large group that still largely pays PAYE and makes a living by selling its labour though and has an interest in notions of solidarity and collective bargaining. Makes perfect sense that they're put off by this version of the tories. The working class shift towards the conservatives makes sense if you consider that it's really a shift towards individualism. This is largely why the "grab what you can" mentality of the conservatives resonates with many. The old days of unionised workplaces, settled communities with widespread homeownership and cohesion are long gone in a lot of areas. Middle class professionals still have that though and are increasingly p**sed off with having to foot the bill for the current leaderships chaotic economic policies and shameless electoral bribes.
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Post by frankwellshrews on Apr 30, 2021 11:02:26 GMT 1
Is the mask starting to slip? Ask him about kids going hungry, 130,000 Covid deaths, high unemployment, 1% for nurses and front line NHS staff, exports down 40% to the EU, business going under at an alarming rate = meh. Ask him who paid for his new curtains... As the saying goes you can only beat what's in front of you. Conservatives lead in the polls has increased again. Starmers got as much presence as the invisible man and the majority of the general public don't give a monkeys about curtains but about vaccine roll out😃. To paraphrase Sun Tzu, while your enemy is making a mistake, keep quiet. Think there's a strong element of long game to Starmers approach right now. I think the current goings on are the beginning of the 21st century version of the Major era sleaze scandals that ultimately led to the Blair government. Incidentally a friend sent me this link. BoJo writing about Mandelson being caught out by an undeclared loan in the 90s; Total ****ing hypocrite. Not that any of his acolytes on here care, but there it is.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 30, 2021 11:59:27 GMT 1
An interesting article which explains the political shift happening - the working class moving to Conservative and the Tories beginning to lose their grip on the liberal parts of the Country. Strange world where the middle class vote Labour and the working class vote Tory but that's politics in 2021. That's because culture now has just as much importance, if not more so, than economics when it comes to politics in 2021. The Tories are hitting that sweet spot in shifting to the left when it comes to economics but right on culture. That appeals to the small c conservative working class. Whilst Labour are comfortable on the left when it comes to economics, they are unable or unwilling to shift when it comes to culture. And the position they do hold is driving that same working class elsewhere (and currently, that's into the arms of the Tories). Strange world though, you are right. A significant shift in UK politics. 👍
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Post by SeanBroseley on Apr 30, 2021 16:08:42 GMT 1
In his first four years as DPP Starmer built up expenses of £161,272 for a chauffeur driven car. He lived four miles from the CPS offices.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Apr 30, 2021 16:13:27 GMT 1
Don't forget you can't eat, clothe or shelter people with culture. Economics is there driving it. The individualism devil take the hindmost philispohy mentioned in a post above is a "cultural" result of the economics of the last 40 years eroding the wages share in favour of profits, dividends, rents and bonuses. Thatcher wanted to turn people into her father. We've ended up with too many beinglike her son.
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Post by Mortgagehound on Apr 30, 2021 16:47:21 GMT 1
As the saying goes you can only beat what's in front of you. Conservatives lead in the polls has increased again. Starmers got as much presence as the invisible man and the majority of the general public don't give a monkeys about curtains but about vaccine roll out😃. Would that be the vaccine rollout that slowed from a 7 day average of over 500,000 in March to less than 120,000 today. Germany on the other hand managed to hit just shy of 1.1million on Wednesday and contrary to popular belief is using the AZ vaccine to hit that amount. Ah but we are 4-0 up on aggregate so are just cruising now
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