|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 26, 2021 18:13:33 GMT 1
Questions will be asked, questions will be answered. Who said they are going to be dodged? There will be mistakes identified for sure, how can there not be. A lot of criticism made towards the government too (on PPE for example, on not having a T&T solution in place). And looking to other countries provides perceptive, in that the UK was not the only country in the world struggling to contain and manage a unprecedent pandemic. But that seems to be something many seem desperate to ignore. So that the Tories are in some way the exception. And we all know why. And from what I can recall, they were asked to provide their opinion on others such as Italy and France and they declined to do so. Not that they had no interest, that they had no answer. And of course they didn't because it's pretty clear it was political. As if for some reason the Tories have to held accountable whereas others do not. And again, we all know why. Sorry; "perspective" is not relevant here. That's moral relativism of the worst kind. The UK government is primarily responsible to the UK population. You yourself admit "mistakes were made". There's evidence that a pandemic was the number one item on the UK government risk register for some time was a flu-like pandemic but it was ignored by successive governments in favour of focusing on brexit. The PPE stockpile was run down. People saw what had happened in China and mainland Europe and screamed for a lockdown but were ignored. If there's evidence that the government ballsed up its response to this and decisions Boris and others can be shown to have contributed to the appallingly high death toll when it was possible another course of action would have saved lives, what possible reason is there for him not to have to face some consequences in the same way a negligent driver would for causing an accident? Pointing out the 125k deaths is not "going to great lengths to attack someone", it's just asking for a bit of accountability. I really cannot understand why this is such a controversial idea for so many conservatives, especially given the constant references to Blair and Iraq. We clearly see things differently on a number of things there.
|
|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 26, 2021 18:17:52 GMT 1
imagined moral high ground There are strains of gonorrhoea that have a better claim to the moral high ground than this government! Perhaps. But most people aren't stupid enough to think Labour would be any better. And for good reason when looking to when they were last in government.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2021 18:21:36 GMT 1
There are strains of gonorrhoea that have a better claim to the moral high ground than this government! Perhaps. But most people aren't stupid enough to think Labour would be any better. And for good reason when looking to when they were last in government. Lucky we are not heading to an election now..... how poor would the conservatives do..... ohhh wait a minute....😂😂
|
|
|
Post by venceremos on Apr 26, 2021 18:28:24 GMT 1
Perhaps. But most people aren't stupid enough to think Labour would be any better. And for good reason when looking to when they were last in government. Lucky we are not heading to an election now..... how poor would the conservatives do..... ohhh wait a minute....😂😂 And there we have it in a two-post nutshell - for some, nothing matters as long as the Tories are winning and people would be "stupid" to vote Labour. I seem to remember some folk not a million miles from this thread found it unacceptable for brexit voters to be called stupid. Double standards, eh, doncha love 'em?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2021 18:33:29 GMT 1
There are strains of gonorrhoea that have a better claim to the moral high ground than this government! Perhaps. But most people aren't stupid enough to think Labour would be any better. And for good reason when looking to when they were last in government. What’s government sleaze and corruption got to do with the Labour Party?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2021 18:35:03 GMT 1
Perhaps. But most people aren't stupid enough to think Labour would be any better. And for good reason when looking to when they were last in government. Lucky we are not heading to an election now..... how poor would the conservatives do..... ohhh wait a minute....😂😂 N*b 😂😂😂👍
|
|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 26, 2021 18:43:17 GMT 1
Perhaps. But most people aren't stupid enough to think Labour would be any better. And for good reason when looking to when they were last in government. What’s government sleaze and corruption got to do with the Labour Party? This is what you replied to above... Indeed. But I suppose that was some time past now, for many long forgotten. But I think there is good reason why Labour's attempts to take up some imagined moral high ground whenever they go to the electorate tends to fail. The electorate see straight through it.
So that was what I was talking about. You seem to be after another discussion. So I guess wires got crossed and we can leave this here...
|
|
|
Post by venceremos on Apr 26, 2021 18:55:41 GMT 1
Apart from the stupid ones, I suppose .....
|
|
|
Post by neilsalop on Apr 26, 2021 19:06:33 GMT 1
Sorry; "perspective" is not relevant here. That's moral relativism of the worst kind. The UK government is primarily responsible to the UK population. You yourself admit "mistakes were made". There's evidence that a pandemic was the number one item on the UK government risk register for some time was a flu-like pandemic but it was ignored by successive governments in favour of focusing on brexit. The PPE stockpile was run down. People saw what had happened in China and mainland Europe and screamed for a lockdown but were ignored. If there's evidence that the government ballsed up its response to this and decisions Boris and others can be shown to have contributed to the appallingly high death toll when it was possible another course of action would have saved lives, what possible reason is there for him not to have to face some consequences in the same way a negligent driver would for causing an accident? Pointing out the 125k deaths is not "going to great lengths to attack someone", it's just asking for a bit of accountability. I really cannot understand why this is such a controversial idea for so many conservatives, especially given the constant references to Blair and Iraq. We clearly see things differently on a number of things there. Most of us on here and also throughout the UK are generally ignorant of what happens in Germany, Italy, France or any other country, because we get most of our news from UK outlets. The fact that you live in Germany, but are British means that you are better placed than most to make judgements.
We have 65.8m people in this country, whereas Germany has 80+m, but your population density is lower, so I think we are fairly close to use as a comparison.
Germany has around 80k deaths, the UK has over 127k. UK bad.
The UK has vaccinated around 33m, Germany has done 25.4m. UK good.
The UK has done nearly 13m 2nd doses, Germany has done 6m. UK good.
Germany is giving between 500k and 700k doses per day after a slow start, the UK did less than 80k yesterday and the average number of doses dropped from an average high of over 525k to the current average of 117k. UK bad
By my reckoning it will be a month or two until you catch us up and leave us behind unless we get our act together.
|
|
|
Post by Pilch on Apr 26, 2021 19:19:59 GMT 1
We clearly see things differently on a number of things there. Most of us on here and also throughout the UK are generally ignorant of what happens in Germany, Italy, France or any other country, because we get most of our news from UK outlets. The fact that you live in Germany, but are British means that you are better placed than most to make judgements.
We have 65.8m people in this country, whereas Germany has 80+m, but your population density is lower, so I think we are fairly close to use as a comparison.
Germany has around 80k deaths, the UK has over 127k. UK bad.
The UK has vaccinated around 33m, Germany has done 25.4m. UK good.
The UK has done nearly 13m 2nd doses, Germany has done 6m. UK good.
Germany is giving between 500k and 700k doses per day after a slow start, the UK did less than 80k yesterday and the average number of doses dropped from an average high of over 525k to the current average of 117k. UK bad
By my reckoning it will be a month or two until you catch us up and leave us behind unless we get our act together. again you dont even touch on the most important factor uk had x many arrive with in the country with covid germany had y until we know what X & Y were any comparisons are just meaningless
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2021 19:30:20 GMT 1
again you dont even touch on the most important factor uk had x many arrive with in the country with covid germany had y until we know what X & Y were any comparisons are just meaningless Why is that the most important factor? Just curious.
|
|
|
Post by neilsalop on Apr 26, 2021 19:40:42 GMT 1
Most of us on here and also throughout the UK are generally ignorant of what happens in Germany, Italy, France or any other country, because we get most of our news from UK outlets. The fact that you live in Germany, but are British means that you are better placed than most to make judgements.
We have 65.8m people in this country, whereas Germany has 80+m, but your population density is lower, so I think we are fairly close to use as a comparison.
Germany has around 80k deaths, the UK has over 127k. UK bad.
The UK has vaccinated around 33m, Germany has done 25.4m. UK good.
The UK has done nearly 13m 2nd doses, Germany has done 6m. UK good.
Germany is giving between 500k and 700k doses per day after a slow start, the UK did less than 80k yesterday and the average number of doses dropped from an average high of over 525k to the current average of 117k. UK bad
By my reckoning it will be a month or two until you catch us up and leave us behind unless we get our act together. again you dont even touch on the most important factor uk had x many arrive with in the country with covid germany had y until we know what X & Y were any comparisons are just meaningless How many more metrics do you want to bring into play?
People give you statistics, you look for a way to rubbish those statistics. It is getting boring to be honest. There is no way to get every fact and figure for every scenario that would even come close to satisfying you.
Not even you can ignore the drop from in the average daily amount of vaccine doses given by nearly 75%.
Just to add I did pick up the wrong stat. Our best average 7 day vaccine rate was just over 506k, not 525k, that was our best day. I do apologise>
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2021 19:53:10 GMT 1
again you dont even touch on the most important factor uk had x many arrive with in the country with covid germany had y until we know what X & Y were any comparisons are just meaningless How many more metrics do you want to bring into play?
People give you statistics, you look for a way to rubbish those statistics. It is getting boring to be honest. There is no way to get every fact and figure for every scenario that would even come close to satisfying you.
Not even you can ignore the drop from in the average daily amount of vaccine doses given by nearly 75%.
Just to add I did pick up the wrong stat. Our best average 7 day vaccine rate was just over 506k, not 525k, that was our best day. I do apologise>
I’m sure when our death rates were soaring, the government apologists on here where telling us all that we shouldn’t be comparing ourselves to other countries. Apparently that’s only the case when the news is bad👍
|
|
|
Post by Feedo Gnasher on Apr 26, 2021 20:02:52 GMT 1
The last two pages of this thread have been an absolute cesspit of party politics.
Is it not possible for the Tory supporters of the world to believe they’re the most suitable party to govern whilst still demanding higher standards of morality and decency? We’re not even talking about competence here!
Boris Johnson could murder someone in the street and Downie would still defend him and say Blair was responsible for the death of many more!
|
|
|
Post by SeanBroseley on Apr 26, 2021 20:42:57 GMT 1
If these comments are true Johnson should be told by senior cabinet ministers that he had lost their support and be forced to resign. But out institutions are sick to the core and so this won't happen.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2021 20:44:38 GMT 1
The last two pages of this thread have been an absolute cesspit of party politics. Is it not possible for the Tory supporters of the world to believe they’re the most suitable party to govern whilst still demanding higher standards of morality and decency? We’re not even talking about competence here! Boris Johnson could murder someone in the street and Downie would still defend him and say Blair was responsible for the death of many more! 🤣🤣🤣
|
|
|
Post by salop27 on Apr 26, 2021 21:07:41 GMT 1
All this is laughable. Someone's got the knife out for BoJo, probably somebody from his own party. Currently the Conservatives could replace Boris with Larry the number 10 mouse catcher and they'd still be ahead in the polls. Starmer is anonymous while labour's deputy leader appears to be brain dead.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2021 21:43:54 GMT 1
The last two pages of this thread have been an absolute cesspit of party politics. Is it not possible for the Tory supporters of the world to believe they’re the most suitable party to govern whilst still demanding higher standards of morality and decency? We’re not even talking about competence here! Boris Johnson could murder someone in the street and Downie would still defend him and say Blair was responsible for the death of many more! Not sure I fully agree with you, if I just listen to headlines ten yes, I would be full of hate and want everyone sacked and replaced by another incompetent fool, but I try to think things through and can understand frustrations of trying to achieve things, I also understand how things can be taken out of context and used against you. I try to see logical explanations and investigate further.... unless of course it’s about Blair and it’s bad news, then I will take that at face value xx
|
|
|
Post by staffordshrew on Apr 26, 2021 22:29:14 GMT 1
Blimey, if Boris goes we could end up with Prime Minister Gove or Patel. Boris, you're forgiven....
|
|
|
Post by frankwellshrews on Apr 26, 2021 22:38:42 GMT 1
Starmer is anonymous while labour's deputy leader appears to be brain dead. This is weird though. According to the Conservatives the problem with Starmer is that he's anonymous and doesn't challenge the government enough but whenever anyone challenges the government it's always aparrently laughable nitpicking and people should just get behind Boris in this difficult situation. Make your minds up.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2021 22:42:06 GMT 1
If these comments are true Johnson should be told by senior cabinet ministers that he had lost their support and be forced to resign. But out institutions are sick to the core and so this won't happen. Let’s look at this closely, Allegation...... Boris Johnson said Xxxxxxxxx So allegation has been made and on the face of it, what awful words..... and should immediately resign and off to the gallows. Now let’s add a bit of context to it. It is alleged that a furious BoJo upon agreeing to a second lockdown that he personally did not want, but has taken advice and agreed upon said angrily xxxxxxxx. So to me that has already changed the face of it.... a frustrated man has said something in haste after being defeated into something he did not want to happen.... Now let’s look at some facts..... despite saying something in anger back in October, he did impose a 3rd Lockdown in Jan and there was not thousands of bodies lying in the streets. Conclusion, a frustrated man said something that was possibly ill advised but had no intention of it happening.... in a fit of anger.... so what.... have we not all done that in our lives....
|
|
|
Post by SeanBroseley on Apr 26, 2021 23:25:20 GMT 1
If these comments are true Johnson should be told by senior cabinet ministers that he had lost their support and be forced to resign. But out institutions are sick to the core and so this won't happen. Let’s look at this closely, Allegation...... Boris Johnson said Xxxxxxxxx So allegation has been made and on the face of it, what awful words..... and should immediately resign and off to the gallows. Now let’s add a bit of context to it. It is alleged that a furious BoJo upon agreeing to a second lockdown that he personally did not want, but has taken advice and agreed upon said angrily xxxxxxxx. So to me that has already changed the face of it.... a frustrated man has said something in haste after being defeated into something he did not want to happen.... Now let’s look at some facts..... despite saying something in anger back in October, he did impose a 3rd Lockdown in Jan and there was not thousands of bodies lying in the streets. Conclusion, a frustrated man said something that was possibly ill advised but had no intention of it happening.... in a fit of anger.... so what.... have we not all done that in our lives.... This is no better than the man in the pub comment earlier from Johnson's biographer.
|
|
|
Post by cabanas2017 on Apr 26, 2021 23:30:49 GMT 1
I think Robert Peston is odds on to look stupid when his witnesses don’t come forward for what ever reason......
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2021 23:36:46 GMT 1
Let’s look at this closely, Allegation...... Boris Johnson said Xxxxxxxxx So allegation has been made and on the face of it, what awful words..... and should immediately resign and off to the gallows. Now let’s add a bit of context to it. It is alleged that a furious BoJo upon agreeing to a second lockdown that he personally did not want, but has taken advice and agreed upon said angrily xxxxxxxx. So to me that has already changed the face of it.... a frustrated man has said something in haste after being defeated into something he did not want to happen.... Now let’s look at some facts..... despite saying something in anger back in October, he did impose a 3rd Lockdown in Jan and there was not thousands of bodies lying in the streets. Conclusion, a frustrated man said something that was possibly ill advised but had no intention of it happening.... in a fit of anger.... so what.... have we not all done that in our lives.... This is no better than the man in the pub comment earlier from Johnson's biographer. It is however how it’s being reported by Peston so it’s not guesswork
|
|
|
Post by SeanBroseley on Apr 27, 2021 0:27:33 GMT 1
Johnson's biographer, Andrew Gimson, dispenses with the the first stage of denial ("he didn't say it") to "OK he said it, but no one minded" with this reported by the Daily Mail: "... the PM "may well have" made "tasteless" remark about allowing dead bodies to pile up but believes it will "strengthen his reputation as a man who talks as a man in the pub would". Who does Gimson usually drink with? Johnson? The second stage of denial looks implausible when you consider that the "tasteless" remark is concerning an illness that Johnson himself is supposed to have his own brush of death with.
|
|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 27, 2021 8:07:21 GMT 1
Boris Johnson could murder someone in the street... But if its hyperbole you are after Feedo perhaps it would help if some people didn't act as though he had.
|
|
|
Post by Feedo Gnasher on Apr 27, 2021 8:07:47 GMT 1
The odious Robert Peston has all but confirmed he said it, however the fact of the matter is it was clearly said in frustration and exasperation, as we did in fact enter a third lockdown rather than ‘let the bodies pile high’. Doesn’t make him any less of a shyster mind.
|
|
|
Post by ssshrew on Apr 27, 2021 8:21:45 GMT 1
Was Robert Peston there then? Or is he just reporting what others are telling him possibly with their own agendas?
I’m no Boris fan but I can’t help but feel there are more important things that need dealing with and reporting on at the moment.
|
|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 27, 2021 8:22:45 GMT 1
The odious Robert Peston has all but confirmed he said it, however the fact of the matter is it was clearly said in frustration and exasperation, as we did in fact enter a third lockdown rather than ‘let the bodies pile high’. Doesn’t make him any less of a shyster mind. I think that's fair enough...👍 For some people its going to be "he said it he should resign". For some people it's going to be "he didn't say it, its just desperate attempts to smear him" or whatever. But for others its going to he might have said it, he might not, if there is no actually recording of this its going to be one persons word against another. And even if he did say it, did he really mean it (as insensitive as it is) or was it said in anger and frustration in that he implemented a 3rd lockdown that he was desperate to avoid (but implemented anyhow).
|
|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 27, 2021 8:24:02 GMT 1
Was Robert Peston there then? Or is he just reporting what others are telling him possibly with their own agendas? I’m no Boris fan but I can’t help but feel there are more important things that need dealing with and reporting on at the moment. Peston wasn't there. He was informed by people who were stood outside the room where Johnson was where he was said to have said this. The door to the room as ajar. 👍
|
|