rob62
Midland League Division Two
Posts: 207
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Post by rob62 on Jun 30, 2024 16:44:15 GMT 1
It is crystal clear from opinion polls which have done seat by seat analysis that both North and South Shropshire will be a close fight between the Lib Dems and the Tories.
So you have a choice between 2 parties that after 4 July will be in opposition to the Labour government.
I would ask anyone who is able to vote in those seats to consider the qualities, integrity, and track record of the candidates.
Ask your self who will be a hard working local champion who will fight for his / her constituents, and who is a career politician that jumps seats in the hope of an easier life.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jun 30, 2024 20:22:39 GMT 1
Choosing between Sunak and Starmer is like choosing between Rolf Harris and Jimmy Saville to babysit your kids. For me the thing to concentrate on is which individual is going to be best for the constituency. For example, the Lib Dems, Greens, Reform, etc. aren't going to be forming a government nor probably even entering into a coalition, but voters might feel that a particular candidate would be best for their constituency, or at least better than the sitting MP. |
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Post by Valerioch on Jul 1, 2024 8:13:21 GMT 1
Slightly O/T but historic results in the French election last night - interesting to see if Marine Le Pen can get a majority in next weekends second vote - here’s hoping so!
A notably high turnout by French standard too
Interesting to see if it has any impact on the final few days here
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2024 8:46:08 GMT 1
Slightly O/T but historic results in the French election last night - interesting to see if Marine Le Pen can get a majority in next weekends second vote - here’s hoping so! A notably high turnout by French standard too Interesting to see if it has any impact on the final few days here A slight improvement over her holocaust denying father I'll grant you, but the rise of the far right across Europe and the world is concerning to say the least. Anyone that has read a history book can see that extremism of any flavour is rarely a good thing, be that political or religious. |
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Post by Valerioch on Jul 1, 2024 8:53:37 GMT 1
Slightly O/T but historic results in the French election last night - interesting to see if Marine Le Pen can get a majority in next weekends second vote - here’s hoping so! A notably high turnout by French standard too Interesting to see if it has any impact on the final few days here A slight improvement over her holocaust denying father I'll grant you, but the rise of the far right across Europe and the world is concerning to say the least. Anyone that has read a history book can see that extremism of any flavour is rarely a good thing, be that political or religious. The words "extremism" and "far-right" are thrown about so freely nowadays, that they mean very little |
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Post by ProudSalopian on Jul 1, 2024 9:27:14 GMT 1
A slight improvement over her holocaust denying father I'll grant you, but the rise of the far right across Europe and the world is concerning to say the least. Anyone that has read a history book can see that extremism of any flavour is rarely a good thing, be that political or religious. The words "extremism" and "far-right" are thrown about so freely nowadays, that they mean very little Racist, facist, extremist, all terms that are used so easily nowadays, increasingly because someone gives a view that the other person doesn't agree with. It's a shame because those terms are ones which really should be used to describe people that should be ostracised from society I always think that when you see the more extreme groups becoming more popular amongst the general population, rather than scream & shout that it's a disgrace, ask yourself why are moderate people becoming drawn to them? Yes there is undoubtedly an element of these group playing on peoples fears but when many other parties and their supporters are labelling people racist for expressing those fears, if they are the only party willing to discuss it then it shouldn't be a surprise when people are drawn to them. |
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Post by gtismygod on Jul 1, 2024 9:29:18 GMT 1
Slightly O/T but historic results in the French election last night - interesting to see if Marine Le Pen can get a majority in next weekends second vote - here’s hoping so! A notably high turnout by French standard too Interesting to see if it has any impact on the final few days here A slight improvement over her holocaust denying father I'll grant you, but the rise of the far right across Europe and the world is concerning to say the least. Anyone that has read a history book can see that extremism of any flavour is rarely a good thing, be that political or religious. There’s nothing extreme or far-right about a country having full control of its borders. That just seems like common sense to me. We’re so used to centrist political parties in this country (and Western Europe as a whole) that are devoid of any real ideas or direction. Any party that brings some new ideas to the table and can promise genuine change, such as Reform or National Rally, is immediately shouted down as extremist. |
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Post by sheltonsalopian on Jul 1, 2024 9:37:30 GMT 1
A slight improvement over her holocaust denying father I'll grant you, but the rise of the far right across Europe and the world is concerning to say the least. Anyone that has read a history book can see that extremism of any flavour is rarely a good thing, be that political or religious. There’s nothing extreme or far-right about a country having full control of its borders. That just seems like common sense to me. We’re so used to centrist political parties in this country (and Western Europe as a whole) that are devoid of any real ideas or direction. Any party that brings some new ideas to the table and can promise genuine change, such as Reform or National Rally, is immediately shouted down as extremist. I'm with you on how easily the term is banded about, and I also agree we need control of our borders. Reform do not have a plan for that though - Farage implied that he would just pick up any channel crossers and drop them back off in France - if you were France would you not just drop them straight back? That's not a plan even though it sounds tough. |
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Post by Valerioch on Jul 1, 2024 9:45:23 GMT 1
There’s nothing extreme or far-right about a country having full control of its borders. That just seems like common sense to me. We’re so used to centrist political parties in this country (and Western Europe as a whole) that are devoid of any real ideas or direction. Any party that brings some new ideas to the table and can promise genuine change, such as Reform or National Rally, is immediately shouted down as extremist. I'm with you on how easily the term is banded about, and I also agree we need control of our borders. Reform do not have a plan for that though - Farage implied that he would just pick up any channel crossers and drop them back off in France - if you were France would you not just drop them straight back? That's not a plan even though it sounds tough. The French are currently picking them up, and escorting them across the invisible sea border in to UK waters - why on earth wouldn’t / shouldn’t we do it back? Absolutely scandalous behaviour from the French, and if Le Pen does win next weekend, it’ll be interesting to see how she approaches this national emergency with us |
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Post by gtismygod on Jul 1, 2024 10:09:49 GMT 1
There’s nothing extreme or far-right about a country having full control of its borders. That just seems like common sense to me. We’re so used to centrist political parties in this country (and Western Europe as a whole) that are devoid of any real ideas or direction. Any party that brings some new ideas to the table and can promise genuine change, such as Reform or National Rally, is immediately shouted down as extremist. I'm with you on how easily the term is banded about, and I also agree we need control of our borders. Reform do not have a plan for that though - Farage implied that he would just pick up any channel crossers and drop them back off in France - if you were France would you not just drop them straight back? That's not a plan even though it sounds tough. I’ve certainly got more faith in Reform to come up with a solution than any of the other parties. The Rwanda scheme will never get off the ground, and Labour have no plan whatsoever. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2024 10:15:22 GMT 1
Will be interesting to see if any right wing group can actually deliver something. At the moment all they are is campaign groups and pressure groups, knowing they’re free from the responsibility of actually proving their words.
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Post by DiglisShrew on Jul 1, 2024 12:06:15 GMT 1
I'm with you on how easily the term is banded about, and I also agree we need control of our borders. Reform do not have a plan for that though - Farage implied that he would just pick up any channel crossers and drop them back off in France - if you were France would you not just drop them straight back? That's not a plan even though it sounds tough. The French are currently picking them up, and escorting them across the invisible sea border in to UK waters - why on earth wouldn’t / shouldn’t we do it back? Absolutely scandalous behaviour from the French, and if Le Pen does win next weekend, it’ll be interesting to see how she approaches this national emergency with us Have you seen any evidence of the French escorting the boats or just hearsay ?? When Farage says he will use the Marines to tackle the boats and take them back to France what will be their terms of engagement ?? Shoot anyone not complying - do battle with the French navy ?? 🤔 |
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Post by Valerioch on Jul 1, 2024 12:26:58 GMT 1
The French are currently picking them up, and escorting them across the invisible sea border in to UK waters - why on earth wouldn’t / shouldn’t we do it back? Absolutely scandalous behaviour from the French, and if Le Pen does win next weekend, it’ll be interesting to see how she approaches this national emergency with us Have you seen any evidence of the French escorting the boats or just hearsay ?? When Farage says he will use the Marines to tackle the boats and take them back to France what will be their terms of engagement ?? Shoot anyone not complying - do battle with the French navy ?? 🤔 Yes I’ve seen plenty of video evidence online thanks, the French escort the boats to the halfway point and hand them over to the UK Border force. No way we should be accepting these people, only Reform offer a genuinely workable solution |
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Post by sheltonsalopian on Jul 1, 2024 12:35:21 GMT 1
Have you seen any evidence of the French escorting the boats or just hearsay ?? When Farage says he will use the Marines to tackle the boats and take them back to France what will be their terms of engagement ?? Shoot anyone not complying - do battle with the French navy ?? 🤔 Yes I’ve seen plenty of video evidence online thanks, the French escort the boats to the halfway point and hand them over to the UK Border force. No way we should be accepting these people, only Reform offer a genuinely workable solution It's not a workable solution - Farage said he'll get the royal navy to drop them off in France, France drop them back off here then you have two militaries spending their time ferrying migrants back and forth? It's a good soundbite that has no basis in reality. You sort out the legal routes and it puts these people out of business, if you want stricter rules on who we let in I'd agree with you but you can't accuse the others of having no plan if Farages best idea is using the navy to ship migrants back and forth. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2024 12:37:39 GMT 1
On points like this it’s worth pointing out that whilst the small boats issue needs resolving that these migrants make up a relatively small percentage of the overall immigration figures. Most of the immigration in this country is people that are being let in.
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Post by Valerioch on Jul 1, 2024 12:38:25 GMT 1
Yes I’ve seen plenty of video evidence online thanks, the French escort the boats to the halfway point and hand them over to the UK Border force. No way we should be accepting these people, only Reform offer a genuinely workable solution It's not a workable solution - Farage said he'll get the royal navy to drop them off in France, France drop them back off here then you have two militaries spending their time ferrying migrants back and forth? It's a good soundbite that has no basis in reality. You sort out the legal routes and it puts these people out of business, if you want stricter rules on who we let in I'd agree with you but you can't accuse the others of having no plan if Farages best idea is using the navy to ship migrants back and forth. This whole “legal routes” malarkey is a load of cobblers. The whole point is these are illegal migrants who should not be here / have no right to be here Can create all the legal routes you like, but if you have a very high threshold on who qualifies, these lot will continue to come over the sea Only way is to build a deterrent, and that deterrent is to ensure absolutely nobody who enters illegally remains here, at the tax payers expense |
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Post by Valerioch on Jul 1, 2024 12:39:45 GMT 1
On points like this it’s worth pointing out that whilst the small boats issue needs resolving that these migrants make up a relatively small percentage of the overall immigration figures. Most of the immigration in this country is people that are being let in. Yes - one of the biggest Tory lies and deceit of the lot was that they would control immigration. They’ll be punished accordingly on Thursday |
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Post by sheltonsalopian on Jul 1, 2024 12:48:25 GMT 1
It's not a workable solution - Farage said he'll get the royal navy to drop them off in France, France drop them back off here then you have two militaries spending their time ferrying migrants back and forth? It's a good soundbite that has no basis in reality. You sort out the legal routes and it puts these people out of business, if you want stricter rules on who we let in I'd agree with you but you can't accuse the others of having no plan if Farages best idea is using the navy to ship migrants back and forth. This whole “legal routes” malarkey is a load of cobblers. The whole point is these are illegal migrants who should not be here / have no right to be here Can create all the legal routes you like, but if you have a very high threshold on who qualifies, these lot will continue to come over the sea Only way is to build a deterrent, and that deterrent is to ensure absolutely nobody who enters illegally remains here, at the tax payers expense Don't get me wrong I don't think Labour are any better on immigration - I just don't trust Farage to solve it either and think Labour will be better on other things. (NHS, Public services etc) Agree with everything you said... but don't think Farage is the answer |
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Post by mattmw on Jul 1, 2024 12:53:18 GMT 1
On points like this it’s worth pointing out that whilst the small boats issue needs resolving that these migrants make up a relatively small percentage of the overall immigration figures. Most of the immigration in this country is people that are being let in. Yes - one of the biggest Tory lies and deceit of the lot was that they would control immigration. They’ll be punished accordingly on Thursday In fairness to the Conservatives a lot of the new visa rules for working in the UK are pretty sensible that they brought in post Brexit will start to kick in over the next 18 months. It’s based on a skills based system where gaps in the labour market and likely wage levels of those moving to the UK are considered Assuming Labour win the election and don’t change these they will probably see significant drops in job related immigration as a direct result of Conservative policy which will be a bit odd What’s really bumped the numbers up over recent years are education - which makes up about 30% of immigration each year and special visas relating to Ukraine and Hong Kong, which will also stabilise. The big change in the last 2-3 years is that EU workers coming to the UK has dramatically declined post Brexit, but been replaced by a lot of none EU immigration from India and South Asia, primarily filling care roles on work visas |
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Post by Worthingshrew on Jul 1, 2024 13:05:34 GMT 1
Farage and Reform can give simplistic solutions to complex problems because they have no chance of being in power and having to implement them.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 1, 2024 13:35:08 GMT 1
A slight improvement over her holocaust denying father I'll grant you, but the rise of the far right across Europe and the world is concerning to say the least. Anyone that has read a history book can see that extremism of any flavour is rarely a good thing, be that political or religious. The words "extremism" and "far-right" are thrown about so freely nowadays, that they mean very little Indeed and I would urge caution when it comes to those who throw the words around so freely as the only extremism they tend to be exposing is their own...👍 |
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 1, 2024 14:02:38 GMT 1
The words "extremism" and "far-right" are thrown about so freely nowadays, that they mean very little Racist, facist, extremist, all terms that are used so easily nowadays, increasingly because someone gives a view that the other person doesn't agree with. It's a shame because those terms are ones which really should be used to describe people that should be ostracised from society I always think that when you see the more extreme groups becoming more popular amongst the general population, rather than scream & shout that it's a disgrace, ask yourself why are moderate people becoming drawn to them? I think you also have to factor in that an awful lot of what was considered moderate a short time ago is now called out by some as extremist. So I think in part moderates are being drawn to "populist" parties because they consider them moderate; they do not consider wishing to see immigration come down to more sustainable levels as extremist, for example. Or the protection of single sex spaces, services and sports. Or to see Net Zero implemented with care and caution (rather than seeing some impossible, arbitrary deadline seemingly pulled out of nowhere). When you look to immigration, you look to Net Zero, you look to the pandemic and how it was handled, you look to the so called "culture wars" and more besides its not Reform and Farage many see as the extremists. |
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 1, 2024 14:21:46 GMT 1
It's not a workable solution - Farage said he'll get the royal navy to drop them off in France, France drop them back off here then you have two militaries spending their time ferrying migrants back and forth? It's a good soundbite that has no basis in reality. You sort out the legal routes and it puts these people out of business, if you want stricter rules on who we let in I'd agree with you but you can't accuse the others of having no plan if Farages best idea is using the navy to ship migrants back and forth. This whole “legal routes” malarkey is a load of cobblers. The whole point is these are illegal migrants who should not be here / have no right to be here Can create all the legal routes you like, but if you have a very high threshold on who qualifies, these lot will continue to come over the sea Only way is to build a deterrent, and that deterrent is to ensure absolutely nobody who enters illegally remains here, at the tax payers expense I agree, I do think there has to be a deterred. I think it ought to be tried anyhow. I mean when it comes to legal routes how many people are you going to allow to enter the UK? Would it be every single person who has a reasonable claim to asylum? If so, how many would that be and would that be sustainable considering that would be a constant. Or would you have a set number for each month or each year, for example. So then the question is; what would those who fall outside that number or those who have their asylum claims rejected do? Do people really expect them to stop trying? As I would expect them to simply fall back to the methods being used today (and more so when looking to some high profile incidents of late that indicate that European nations seem unwilling or incapable to returning failed asylum seekers back to their home nation). But then lets see what Labour can do.👍 |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2024 14:30:06 GMT 1
A slight improvement over her holocaust denying father I'll grant you, but the rise of the far right across Europe and the world is concerning to say the least. Anyone that has read a history book can see that extremism of any flavour is rarely a good thing, be that political or religious. The words "extremism" and "far-right" are thrown about so freely nowadays, that they mean very little A slight improvement over her holocaust denying father I'll grant you, but the rise of the far right across Europe and the world is concerning to say the least. Anyone that has read a history book can see that extremism of any flavour is rarely a good thing, be that political or religious. The words "extremism" and "far-right" are thrown about so freely nowadays, that they mean very little Are you suggesting that Le Pens RN (formerly known as the Front National) are anything other than far right? Wikipedia uses that category, with citations. Most news networks also categorise them as such. They also have their own security branch, the DPS who funnily enough wear black uniforms. |
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Post by Valerioch on Jul 1, 2024 14:42:00 GMT 1
The words "extremism" and "far-right" are thrown about so freely nowadays, that they mean very little The words "extremism" and "far-right" are thrown about so freely nowadays, that they mean very little Are you suggesting that Le Pens RN (formerly known as the Front National) are anything other than far right? Wikipedia uses that category, with citations. Most news networks also categorise them as such. They also have their own security branch, the DPS who funnily enough wear black uniforms. Time will tell if/when they become a majority government, but at this minute, I don't think they are 'far' right no, certainly right of centre of course. Been modified quite a lot over recent years it appears but as I say, we will only really know where they stand if they get a majority. I stand by my wider point too, seeing some people / organisations / news agencies brand Reform UK far right is hilarious  And there's certainly nothing to be ashamed of at being right of Centre despite the connotations people try to attach to it |
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Post by mattmw on Jul 1, 2024 14:46:53 GMT 1
Racist, facist, extremist, all terms that are used so easily nowadays, increasingly because someone gives a view that the other person doesn't agree with. It's a shame because those terms are ones which really should be used to describe people that should be ostracised from society I always think that when you see the more extreme groups becoming more popular amongst the general population, rather than scream & shout that it's a disgrace, ask yourself why are moderate people becoming drawn to them? I think you also have to factor in that an awful lot of what was considered moderate a short time ago is now called out by some as extremist. So I think in part moderates are being drawn to "populist" parties because they consider them moderate; they do not consider wishing to see immigration come down to more sustainable levels as extremist, for example. Or the protection of single sex spaces, services and sports. Or to see Net Zero implemented with care and caution (rather than seeing some impossible, arbitrary deadline seemingly pulled out of nowhere). When you look to immigration, you look to Net Zero, you look to the pandemic and how it was handled, you look to the so called "culture wars" and more besides its not Reform and Farage many see as the extremists. Think the other factor is that the right wing parties in France - at least the ones winning the votes, have come in to the centre from the further right too. So where there were once talking about fully leaving the EU, they are nore talking about reforms and opt outs whilsts still keeping their membership. On social issues like homosexuality and marridge these were very driven by Catholisim in the 80s French right wing parties and were big issues back then but seem less so this time. The policies on immigration are clearly still to the right, but the talk of forced repatrations that took place in the 80s nationalism seems to have stepped back to more checks and balalnces on religious activity and immigrants rather than outright deportation. Think there are also those on right in France who are much more focused on the financial matters (French tax rates are much higher than the UK) so would fall more in the Liz Truss style free market economny ideas, rather than the Nationalism of Le Penn. I suspect as they get more into power that move to the centre will continue as its tended to across western Europe when new political movements get to power - the radicalism tends to fad when faced with getting trains to run on time and the economy running effectively. |
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 1, 2024 15:05:29 GMT 1
I think you also have to factor in that an awful lot of what was considered moderate a short time ago is now called out by some as extremist. So I think in part moderates are being drawn to "populist" parties because they consider them moderate; they do not consider wishing to see immigration come down to more sustainable levels as extremist, for example. Or the protection of single sex spaces, services and sports. Or to see Net Zero implemented with care and caution (rather than seeing some impossible, arbitrary deadline seemingly pulled out of nowhere). When you look to immigration, you look to Net Zero, you look to the pandemic and how it was handled, you look to the so called "culture wars" and more besides its not Reform and Farage many see as the extremists. Think the other factor is that the right wing parties in France - at least the ones winning the votes, have come in to the centre from the further right too. So where there were once talking about fully leaving the EU, they are nore talking about reforms and opt outs whilsts still keeping their membership. On social issues like homosexuality and marridge these were very driven by Catholisim in the 80s French right wing parties and were big issues back then but seem less so this time. The policies on immigration are clearly still to the right, but the talk of forced repatrations that took place in the 80s nationalism seems to have stepped back to more checks and balalnces on religious activity and immigrants rather than outright deportation. Think there are also those on right in France who are much more focused on the financial matters (French tax rates are much higher than the UK) so would fall more in the Liz Truss style free market economny ideas, rather than the Nationalism of Le Penn. I suspect as they get more into power that move to the centre will continue as its tended to across western Europe when new political movements get to power - the radicalism tends to fad when faced with getting trains to run on time and the economy running effectively. Yeah, I think you can say the same of Meloni in Italy...👍 |
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Post by gtismygod on Jul 1, 2024 15:14:16 GMT 1
The words "extremism" and "far-right" are thrown about so freely nowadays, that they mean very little The words "extremism" and "far-right" are thrown about so freely nowadays, that they mean very little Are you suggesting that Le Pens RN (formerly known as the Front National) are anything other than far right? Wikipedia uses that category, with citations. Most news networks also categorise them as such. They also have their own security branch, the DPS who funnily enough wear black uniforms. Which specific NR stances/policies would you consider to be “far-right”? The media are as guilty as everyone else when it comes to labelling any party right of centre as an “extremist far-right” party. Wanting some degree of control over immigration is hardly extremist or far-right is it? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2024 15:39:13 GMT 1
I certainly don’t think that blanket calling people far-right, racists, fascists etc does nothing to aid the course and only seeks to alienate people. That said, it’s always amusing how quickly the self appointed free speech champions and anti-woke are to complain when they get called names they don’t like.
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Post by ar**chairfan on Jul 1, 2024 16:10:29 GMT 1
I won't complain if I'm labelled "far right"....merely laugh with derision l
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