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Post by stuttgartershrew on Oct 28, 2023 13:55:55 GMT 1
Think this is worth a read and so a share, again on the history and complexity of the situation in Israel today but also the reaction we have seen to recent events. Link to the article is in the Tweet... Also denies any genocide has taken place or is taking place. Might as well have just linked to a website for the Israeli state I think you have proven the points made in the article, thanks for that. |
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Post by davycrockett on Oct 28, 2023 14:00:18 GMT 1
With many journalists and aid workers missing not to mention Palestinian civilians killed surely the rest of the world's going to grow some......like the way they report 'refused to leave,' how and where to? |
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Post by venceremos on Oct 28, 2023 14:09:40 GMT 1
Think this is worth a read and so a share, again on the history and complexity of the situation in Israel today but also the reaction we have seen to recent events. Link to the article is in the Tweet... Painfully one-sided and based on some false straw man that those who want Palestinian civilians to stop being murdered have sympathy for the recent crimes of Hamas. Also denies any genocide has taken place or is taking place. Might as well have just linked to a website for the Israeli state It’s endlessly frustrating when the likes of Maureen Lipman and Rachel Riley conflate criticism of Israel’s government and its actions with antisemitism and support for Hamas atrocities on 7 October. That just gives a free pass to the sort of slaughter we’re seeing now. How many dead children are acceptable? Is there any limit? It seems not. Leaders of other governments are either complicit, weak or lacking influence. This isn’t really a war because Hamas isn’t an army or a conventional enemy. The British state didn’t bomb Catholic civilians when the IRA carried on its bombing campaign in England. If there’s a human shield you don’t destroy the shield. Israel is behaving no better than Hamas - it’s just able to do so from a distance. Talk of ‘winning’ is futile. It’s not hard to imagine the reserves of hatred and resentment now being replenished and killing any hope of peace for decades to come, if not generations. You reap what you sow. Two states is surely the only solution, but it seems further away than ever. |
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 28, 2023 14:11:11 GMT 1
With many journalists and aid workers missing not to mention Palestinian civilians killed surely the rest of the world's going to grow some......like the way they report 'refused to leave,' how and where to? What with Iran reported as threatening to "wipe out" Israel, lot's of young Palestinians deprived of their homes and loved ones who might grow up to want revenge on Israel and a possible change in sentimnt towards Israel from the rest of the world, Israel's current actions are almost certain to come back and bite them. |
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Post by jamo on Oct 28, 2023 14:50:22 GMT 1
Painfully one-sided and based on some false straw man that those who want Palestinian civilians to stop being murdered have sympathy for the recent crimes of Hamas. Also denies any genocide has taken place or is taking place. Might as well have just linked to a website for the Israeli state It’s endlessly frustrating when the likes of Maureen Lipman and Rachel Riley conflate criticism of Israel’s government and its actions with antisemitism and support for Hamas atrocities on 7 October. That just gives a free pass to the sort of slaughter we’re seeing now. Agreed. But not all Jewish commentators are guilty of such rampant nationalism. Daniel Finklestein has written some very balanced and enlightening articles this week. He hates Hamas just the same, and wants them destroyed but not in the way this is playing out, not least I suspect because it can only ever be massively self defeating. Maureen Lipman is coming across as a quite vile human being with some of the stuff she’s quoted in the media as saying. That said, she is certainly not alone. A number of prominent Jewish public figures simply will have no acceptance at all of the responsibilities that the state of Israel has, and which it consistently and completely ignores. |
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Post by armchairfan on Oct 28, 2023 15:24:36 GMT 1
There's none so deaf.... And contrary to what you may think of me - if anything- I value discussion; thank goodness YOU'RE not part of any negotiating team who will have to sort out this tragic mess. There comes a point in life, the earlier the better, that you realise there’s absolutely zero value in getting drawn into back and forths with small-minded, spiteful, unpleasant and usually bald men who have hardly ever left Shropshire Up to a point, I accept your strictures, but I certainly don't believe my correspondent to be "small-minded" - quite the opposite, in fact - just a bit too dismissive of any opinion which doesn't match his own. Anyway, go easy on those of us who are follicley challenged! Lol |
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 28, 2023 15:38:22 GMT 1
There comes a point in life, the earlier the better, that you realise there’s absolutely zero value in getting drawn into back and forths with small-minded, spiteful, unpleasant and usually bald men who have hardly ever left Shropshire Up to a point, I accept your strictures, but I certainly don't believe my correspondent to be "small-minded" - quite the opposite, in fact - just a bit too dismissive of any opinion which doesn't match his own. Anyway, go easy on those of us who are follicley challenged! Lol Not sure who, but there could be a "mullet" in there somewhere. |
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Post by dachshund on Oct 28, 2023 16:10:48 GMT 1
Also denies any genocide has taken place or is taking place. Might as well have just linked to a website for the Israeli state I think you have proven the points made in the article, thanks for that. You believe that I’m celebrating the murders committed by Hamas ‘behind the masks of humanitarianism and justice’? |
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Oct 28, 2023 16:23:20 GMT 1
I think you have proven the points made in the article, thanks for that. You believe that I’m celebrating the murders committed by Hamas ‘behind the masks of humanitarianism and justice’? You wouldn't be Cathy Newman would you?  But what a response that is. Seek help. |
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Post by dachshund on Oct 28, 2023 16:27:39 GMT 1
That’s what the blinkered article you’re lauding claims that people are doing.
You carry on with parroting your Spectator articles and other swivel-eyed nonsense, and I’ll go and seek that help in the form of the block function
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Oct 28, 2023 16:29:54 GMT 1
That’s what the blinkered article you’re lauding claims that people are doing. You carry on with parroting your Spectator articles and other swivel-eyed nonsense, and I’ll go and seek that help in the form of the block function Good stuff, you do that as I have no desire to debate or engage with idiots...👍 |
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 28, 2023 18:30:50 GMT 1
That’s what the blinkered article you’re lauding claims that people are doing. You carry on with parroting your Spectator articles and other swivel-eyed nonsense, and I’ll go and seek that help in the form of the block function Good stuff, you do that as I have no desire to debate or engage with idiots...👍 Disagree with a poster? Just denigrate the poster. It's something that seems to be catching on. |
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Post by The Clash 1966 on Oct 28, 2023 19:48:05 GMT 1
Don't know what all the fuss is about as all these so called hamas martyrs and their acolytes are on the fast track to eternal paradise . Which is supposedly what they want in the first place.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Oct 28, 2023 21:03:57 GMT 1
Something similar from Jonathan Freedland in the Guardian... |
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Post by Valerioch on Oct 29, 2023 12:00:54 GMT 1
Whatever my thoughts on this conflict, the sight of Taliban, Al Qaeda and ISIS flags on the streets of the Western world by “Palestine protestors” is sickening and scary, and a damning indictment that ‘multiculturalism’ has failed, will continue to fail, and one day will lead to very serious problems for the Western world and our way of life
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Post by Valerioch on Oct 29, 2023 12:02:10 GMT 1
There's none so deaf.... And contrary to what you may think of me - if anything- I value discussion; thank goodness YOU'RE not part of any negotiating team who will have to sort out this tragic mess. There comes a point in life, the earlier the better, that you realise there’s absolutely zero value in getting drawn into back and forths with small-minded, spiteful, unpleasant and usually bald men who have hardly ever left Shropshire As usual, Blue and Ambers most infamous woke apologist offers zero input other than to slag others valid views off - appalling poster |
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Post by dachshund on Oct 29, 2023 12:13:44 GMT 1
There comes a point in life, the earlier the better, that you realise there’s absolutely zero value in getting drawn into back and forths with small-minded, spiteful, unpleasant and usually bald men who have hardly ever left Shropshire As usual, Blue and Ambers most infamous woke apologist offers zero input other than to slag others valid views off - appalling poster How much a month you spending on shampoo? |
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 29, 2023 14:59:19 GMT 1
Don't know what all the fuss is about as all these so called hamas martyrs and their acolytes are on the fast track to eternal paradise . Which is supposedly what they want in the first place. The fuss is about the number of ordinary Palestinions that are being taken with them. |
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Post by The Clash 1966 on Oct 29, 2023 15:40:25 GMT 1
I worry about the future of the western world and I have a full head of hair and have travelled extensively and worked outside of the UK .
300,000 plus protesting at the weekend in favour of an unpleasant regime is a grave state of affairs .
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Post by The Clash 1966 on Oct 29, 2023 15:42:11 GMT 1
Don't know what all the fuss is about as all these so called hamas martyrs and their acolytes are on the fast track to eternal paradise . Which is supposedly what they want in the first place. The fuss is about the number of ordinary Palestinions that are being taken with them. I agree but barely anyone has had a word of sympathy for the Israeli and foreign nationals who were initially attacked and killed. Let's face it Hamas and Hezbollah have been pulling stunts similar to this for years . So what goes around....... |
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Post by dachshund on Oct 29, 2023 16:02:18 GMT 1
I worry about the future of the western world and I have a full head of hair and have travelled extensively and worked outside of the UK . 300,000 plus protesting at the weekend in favour of an unpleasant regime is a grave state of affairs . If you think 300,000 people marched in favour of Hamas, then that’s a wig |
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Post by The Clash 1966 on Oct 29, 2023 17:23:37 GMT 1
What makes you think that?
I'd rather have Israel as a player in the middle east than a a total geographical
islamic theocracy .
Islam does have a record for being a backward and mediaeval faith. Just to clarify things I am a life long atheist.
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Post by jamo on Oct 29, 2023 17:45:08 GMT 1
The fuss is about the number of ordinary Palestinions that are being taken with them. I agree but barely anyone has had a word of sympathy for the Israeli and foreign nationals who were initially attacked and killed. Let's face it Hamas and Hezbollah have been pulling stunts similar to this for years . So what goes around....... You keep conflating two different strains of debate as a means to emphasise your standpoint. Hamas and the civilian population of Gaza are not, and have never been one and the same. The children of Palestine should not be the price paid for Israeli vengeance. Also, show me where anyone on here or elsewhere in civilised debate anyone who has not shown maximum sympathy for what happened to Israel on Oct 7t. It’s nonsense to suggest that is not the case. |
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Post by Dancin on Oct 29, 2023 19:11:53 GMT 1
I agree but barely anyone has had a word of sympathy for the Israeli and foreign nationals who were initially attacked and killed. Let's face it Hamas and Hezbollah have been pulling stunts similar to this for years . So what goes around....... Hamas and the civilian population of Gaza are not, and have never been one and the same.  In 2006, Hamas won the 2006 Palestinian legislative elections and assumed administrative control of Gaza Strip and West Bank. In 2007, Hamas led a military victory over Fatah, the secular Palestinian nationalist party, which had dominated the Palestinian National Authority. |
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Post by armchairfan on Oct 29, 2023 19:12:08 GMT 1
I agree but barely anyone has had a word of sympathy for the Israeli and foreign nationals who were initially attacked and killed. Let's face it Hamas and Hezbollah have been pulling stunts similar to this for years . So what goes around....... You keep conflating two different strains of debate as a means to emphasise your standpoint. Hamas and the civilian population of Gaza are not, and have never been one and the same. The children of Palestine should not be the price paid for Israeli vengeance. Also, show me where anyone on here or elsewhere in civilised debate anyone who has not shown maximum sympathy for what happened to Israel on Oct 7t. It’s nonsense to suggest that is not the case. I do take your point as to the need to separate the will of the ordinary people of Gaza, and the stated aims of Hamas and, more importantly, the stated aims of their Iranian backers. Quite how that separation is achieved is another matter : in their one and only chance to vote, the Gazan people supported Hamas convincingly, I believe; it is over 10 years since they last had that opportunity. |
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Post by Dancin on Oct 29, 2023 19:14:19 GMT 1
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Post by dachshund on Oct 29, 2023 20:18:49 GMT 1
You keep conflating two different strains of debate as a means to emphasise your standpoint. Hamas and the civilian population of Gaza are not, and have never been one and the same. The children of Palestine should not be the price paid for Israeli vengeance. Also, show me where anyone on here or elsewhere in civilised debate anyone who has not shown maximum sympathy for what happened to Israel on Oct 7t. It’s nonsense to suggest that is not the case. I do take your point as to the need to separate the will of the ordinary people of Gaza, and the stated aims of Hamas and, more importantly, the stated aims of their Iranian backers. Quite how that separation is achieved is another matter : in their one and only chance to vote, the Gazan people supported Hamas convincingly, I believe; it is over 10 years since they last had that opportunity. It’s 17 years and a full half of those currently in Gaza weren’t even born, never mind eligible to vote |
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Post by SeanBroseley on Oct 29, 2023 22:51:18 GMT 1
Two states is a solution that the settlements on the West Bank have now made impossible. Another community this week has evacuated its village because of settler violence. This all goes on in full view of the Israeli Army who only get involved if the Palestinians object too much to being beaten up and thrown out of their homes.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Oct 29, 2023 22:59:25 GMT 1
The effect of publishing this article in the Atlantic, and probably the intention of writing it is to make it easier to suggest that Palestinians really need to stop complaining. Which given how many are currently being slaughtered is actually " dangerous" in opinion piece parlance. Meanwhile people are losing their jobs for suggesting that Israeli and Palestinian lives are of equal value. So Sebag-Montefiore's privilege is showing.
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Post by armchairfan on Oct 29, 2023 23:55:58 GMT 1
The effect of publishing this article in the Atlantic, and probably the intention of writing it is to make it easier to suggest that Palestinians really need to stop complaining. Which given how many are currently being slaughtered is actually " dangerous" in opinion piece parlance. Meanwhile people are losing their jobs for suggesting that Israeli and Palestinian lives are of equal value. So Sebag-Montefiore's privilege is showing. Yer another gross oversimplification of an extraordinarily difficult issue: contrary to what many evidently believe 100% blame is attributable to neither set of combatants. I shall, however, not despair....where there is life etc etc! |
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But what a response that is. Seek help. 
