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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 19, 2023 19:55:53 GMT 1
Hamas started this war. Did they expect Israel to just take it and lie down after what Hamas did to Israeli and other civilians at the Supernova festival and the nearby Kibbutz. As I see it Hamas are to blame for the death of Palestinian civilians .They have poked the bear once too often . This is going to end with thousands more pointless deaths. Hamas don't care about their own people, ordinary Palestinians. If Israel wants to be regarded as a civilised country, better than Hamas, then they should. |
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Post by armchairfan on Oct 19, 2023 20:20:43 GMT 1
Hamas started this war. Did they expect Israel to just take it and lie down after what Hamas did to Israeli and other civilians at the Supernova festival and the nearby Kibbutz. As I see it Hamas are to blame for the death of Palestinian civilians .They have poked the bear once too often . This is going to end with thousands more pointless deaths. Hamas don't care about their own people, ordinary Palestinians. If Israel wants to be regarded as a civilised country, better than Hamas, then they should. Fair comment! If there were a democratic system for the non-Israelies in the region, instead of an Hamas dictatorship, things might be different, but there ain't. |
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Post by The Clash 1966 on Oct 19, 2023 20:21:25 GMT 1
Hamas started this war. Did they expect Israel to just take it and lie down after what Hamas did to Israeli and other civilians at the Supernova festival and the nearby Kibbutz. As I see it Hamas are to blame for the death of Palestinian civilians .They have poked the bear once too often . This is going to end with thousands more pointless deaths. Hamas don't care about their own people, ordinary Palestinians. If Israel wants to be regarded as a civilised country, better than Hamas, then they should. I agree with you, but should Israel just let herself be attacked without retaliation. |
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 19, 2023 20:28:43 GMT 1
Hamas don't care about their own people, ordinary Palestinians. If Israel wants to be regarded as a civilised country, better than Hamas, then they should. I agree with you, but should Israel just let herself be attacked without retaliation. No, but Israel has excellent security services, even if they did let them down this time, a network of spies in Gaza, the west's finest surveilance. They should be able to snuff out Hamas withut snuffing out ordinary Palestinians, or displacing them. Reports in the last few days indicate that they are doing too. |
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Post by The Clash 1966 on Oct 19, 2023 20:39:13 GMT 1
Agree again. But Mossad had no idea about the attack two weeks ago.
I guess Israel has had enough and want a change in their southern border.
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Post by vladimir on Oct 19, 2023 22:08:44 GMT 1
Hamas don't care about their own people, ordinary Palestinians. If Israel wants to be regarded as a civilised country, better than Hamas, then they should. Fair comment! If there were a democratic system for the non-Israelies in the region, instead of an Hamas dictatorship, things might be different, but there ain't. Yes of course. If only the enslaved Palestinians just had a free democracy the Isreal would end it's decades long blockade and it's continued disproportionate aggression and illegal settlements against Palestinians. Let's not forget isreal helped propel Hamas forward in the 80/90s. They wernt in power then. theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/ |
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Post by SeanBroseley on Oct 20, 2023 5:50:29 GMT 1
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Post by martinshrew on Oct 20, 2023 7:40:24 GMT 1
There's far too many people in the country/world having strong opinions on this who lack even the basic understanding of what is happening.
I don't stand with either side, I stand with the poor victims of this idiocracy.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Oct 20, 2023 7:44:07 GMT 1
By point is that this was started by Hamas. While others would suggest it's actually Israel's illegal occupations that 'started it'. I don't take a view as I don't know enough, other than to say I absolutely detest those who play the antisemitism card as soon as someone criticises Israel, conflating potentially legitimate (or not) criticism of the actions of that state with criticism of Judaism or Jewish people, because they're manifesly not the same thing. Whilst some would say it was those who refused to accept the partition plan for Palestine and the creation of a Jewish state (in what I am sure many Jews would say is their ancestral homeland) back 1947 that "started it". Many will look even further back in history (and its worth doing so when looking to claim and counter claim). Its long and complex. And you are right regarding the claim of 'antisemitism' but unfortunately that's how things work today; if you are critical of immigration you are a racist, if you are critical of Islam its islamophobia, if you are critical of gender ideology you are a transphobe blah, blah, blah. The list goes on. But even so, nor should it be ignored either (and I am not suggesting you think that)... Europe antisemitism: Berlin synagogue targeted as attacks rise
...as for many it does walk hand in hand. This last few days has opened my eyes as to why many Jews might not feel safe in the UK, Germany, the US and elsewhere. At a demo in Australia for example, along with burning the Israeli flag there was chants of "f**k the Jews and "gas the Jews". I mean in the UK and the USA you even have people going around tearing down pictures of those who have been kidnapped by Hamas, so some here in the West won't even allow them that. And it will only get worse, I have no doubt about that looking to how demographics are changing here in Europe, for example. And all this then adds weight as to why a Jewish homeland and state is needed in the first place. And around we go.  |
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Post by armchairfan on Oct 20, 2023 12:16:10 GMT 1
Fair comment! If there were a democratic system for the non-Israelies in the region, instead of an Hamas dictatorship, things might be different, but there ain't. Yes of course. If only the enslaved Palestinians just had a free democracy the Isreal would end it's decades long blockade and it's continued disproportionate aggression and illegal settlements against Palestinians. Let's not forget isreal helped propel Hamas forward in the 80/90s. They wernt in power then. theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/Do I detect a note of irony there....? I have never disputed that the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli state is not only shameful, but an affront to democratic principles, and ultimately self-defeating - hence the mere existence of Hamas. The admittedly rather simple point I was making is that, generally speaking, mature democracies are better able to achieve compromise than the likes of Hamas or any number of autocratic regimes across the globe. |
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Post by servernaside on Oct 20, 2023 14:51:54 GMT 1
This has always been (and will remain) an insoluble problem.
Two groups of people believe that the land belongs exclusively to them for a variety of historical reasons. It is a dispute without end which will periodically flare up into armed conflict.
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 20, 2023 15:40:28 GMT 1
This has always been (and will remain) an insoluble problem. Two groups of people believe that the land belongs exclusively to them for a variety of historical reasons. It is a dispute without end which will periodically fare up into armed conflict. You are probably right. I bet you're fun at parties. |
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Post by northwestman on Oct 21, 2023 16:39:28 GMT 1
Starmer is caught out lying.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2023 19:22:20 GMT 1
I have tried to steer clear of this subject, both on here and on social media, but I feel that I have to take issue with a few of the posts on this thread.
Isn't it funny that someone on here can post that criticism of Israel doesn't equate to anti-semitism, yet when the former leader of the Labour party made pretty much the same point he was vilified as Hitler incarnate.
One poster claiming loudly that he stands with Israel and blames Hamas for this conflict is strange when you consider that even before the current blockade of Gaza the electricity supply was patchy to say the least, the water supply was nowhere near adequate, medicines and medical equipment were in short supply and even having the audacity to even approach the fencing surrounding Gaza was likely to get you a bullet, even if you were clearly wearing medical or press identification. The average Palestinian life expectancy is already around 8 years less than that of someone living in Israel, I would imagine that recent events have pushed that even further.
Hamas were wrong, very wrong to do what they did on October 7th and there can be no justification for killing innocents, but two wrongs have never made a right and for Israel to effectively trap 2.3 million mostly innocent people with no access to electricity, water or medicine and then try to bomb them into submission isn't helping.
Israel could have made the lives of Palestinians both in Gaza and the West Bank so much easier and more pleasant and won over hearts and minds over the last decades, but instead have taken more and more away from them and built up more and more resentment. There is no way that this is going to end well, certainly not in the next few years, unless Israel and the West can find some sort of olive branch to offer. I am not suggesting that Israel let Hamas off the hook, but if they can appeal to the vast majority of Palestinians to bring an end to Hamas reign in Gaza there might be a chance of something approaching peace.
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Post by armchairfan on Oct 23, 2023 21:03:02 GMT 1
I have tried to steer clear of this subject, both on here and on social media, but I feel that I have to take issue with a few of the posts on this thread.
Isn't it funny that someone on here can post that criticism of Israel doesn't equate to anti-semitism, yet when the former leader of the Labour party made pretty much the same point he was vilified as Hitler incarnate.
One poster claiming loudly that he stands with Israel and blames Hamas for this conflict is strange when you consider that even before the current blockade of Gaza the electricity supply was patchy to say the least, the water supply was nowhere near adequate, medicines and medical equipment were in short supply and even having the audacity to even approach the fencing surrounding Gaza was likely to get you a bullet, even if you were clearly wearing medical or press identification. The average Palestinian life expectancy is already around 8 years less than that of someone living in Israel, I would imagine that recent events have pushed that even further.
Hamas were wrong, very wrong to do what they did on October 7th and there can be no justification for killing innocents, but two wrongs have never made a right and for Israel to effectively trap 2.3 million mostly innocent people with no access to electricity, water or medicine and then try to bomb them into submission isn't helping.
Israel could have made the lives of Palestinians both in Gaza and the West Bank so much easier and more pleasant and won over hearts and minds over the last decades, but instead have taken more and more away from them and built up more and more resentment. There is no way that this is going to end well, certainly not in the next few years, unless Israel and the West can find some sort of olive branch to offer. I am not suggesting that Israel let Hamas off the hook, but if they can appeal to the vast majority of Palestinians to bring an end to Hamas reign in Gaza there might be a chance of something approaching peace.
I agree with much, though not all, of what you say, and like you have tried to steer clear of an issue which is highly likely to cause both our heads to explode with frustration; your closing words do, to some extent, echo my own thoughts in my one and only contribution to this thread: the need for democratic accountability in Gaza - its people have not been given the opportunity to vote at all for 10 years or more, have they? I don't know how Hamas exercises control: whether by threats, or by unsubtle suggestion that a failure to support Hamas equates to being an Israeli sympathiser, I have no idea; of course, it may well be that Hamas are a caring and efficient organisation, bringing comfort to all citizens of Gaza.....peace, they certainly haven't delivered. Now please excuse me while I seek out a darkened room! |
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Post by Pilch on Oct 23, 2023 21:29:25 GMT 1
I managed to stay clear and always have , have no idea what's going on , heard the shambles of a minutes silence at Anfield ( as usual ) but dont know or care what that was all about but im guessing it may have been in favour of the victims which is why ive not moaned about it , I always think this kind of thing is going on somewhere in the world most weeks, why are some conflicts more important than others I ask ?
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Post by tdk on Oct 23, 2023 23:52:40 GMT 1
Taking the long view, over the next decade or so Israel needs to negotiate. It's hard-line approach will always mean conflict. I is a small country with neighbours who are growing in power and America's support can no longer be taken for granted.
At the moment the leaders are in a state of fear and weighing up the least worse options. The Israeli leader will almost certainly lose power if he does not find a robust response.
Hezbollah in Lebanon can either attack or risk losing the support from Iran who basically arm and fund them.
If it escalates then Biden has to decide whether further intervention would lose him the looming election.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2023 6:26:28 GMT 1
I managed to stay clear and always have , have no idea what's going on , heard the shambles of a minutes silence at Anfield ( as usual ) but dont know or care what that was all about but im guessing it may have been in favour of the victims which is why ive not moaned about it , I always think this kind of thing is going on somewhere in the world most weeks, why are some conflicts more important than others I ask ? I don't think you are alone in not understanding this conflict, most people have at best a fleeting knowledge, even many that actively try to get some understanding can only scratch the surface. It is a minefield of opinions and misinformation that isn't being helped by the media.
As to your question, I think that some conflicts affect people in the West because they are closer to home in the case of Ukraine or because they involve countries that the West supports. How quickly did the Uyghur stories disappear from our new feeds, because there was nothing in it for western democracies? How quickly did the Arab Spring uprising in Bahrain that was crushed under the heels of the Saudi armed forces disappear?
Taking the long view, over the next decade or so Israel needs to negotiate. It's hard-line approach will always mean conflict. I is a small country with neighbours who are growing in power and America's support can no longer be taken for granted. At the moment the leaders are in a state of fear and weighing up the least worse options. The Israeli leader will almost certainly lose power if he does not find a robust response. Hezbollah in Lebanon can either attack or risk losing the support from Iran who basically arm and fund them. If it escalates then Biden has to decide whether further intervention would lose him the looming election. Israel has the strongest and best equipped military in the region and could easily crush Hamas in open warfare, just as they could with Hezbollah, Egypt, Syria and Jordan should any of them choose to attack, but Hamas would never choose open warfare. They are guerilla fighters and will never engage in a type of warfare that gives their advantage away. For Israel to totally crush Hamas would take years and for every innocent civilian killed while attempting to crush them they would create more people that would then support Hamas. The spiral of vengeance and retribution would just keep growing.
Negotiation is going to be tough, because who would Israel negotiate with? Not Hamas, that's for certain and I honestly don't know if there is anyone else that could even be considered. A ceasefire called by Israel today could help along with restoring and improving the electricity and water supplies, sending in materials and equipment to rebuild shelled areas and sending medical equipment, supplies and allowing more medical staff to enter the area. Using hearts and minds might be a way of winning over some of those in Gaza, but would it be enough? I don't know.
The trouble is that both Hamas and the Israeli government have been getting even more hard-line over the last decade or so and to expect or even hope for them to negotiate is forlorn to say the least. How many envoys have been sent over the years and left bearing promises that are as worthless as the piece of paper held aloft by Chamberlain. I wish I had even a spark of hope that this could be solved without much more bloodshed, but I know that it can't unless both sides can work together and they are both so entrenched in their own positions that that is never going to happen.
Hezbollah is another difficult one. Iran is in danger of spreading themselves too thin. They are already involved in the proxy war with Saudi Arabia in Yemen and are supplying (allegedly) Russia with armaments and equipment. Could they really be in a position to fight another proxy war in Lebanon? I think it would be a very risky move that would put them in conflict on too many fronts. It would also open them up to attacks on themselves if Saudi Arabia and Israel were to say 'sod it' to proxy wars and decide to miss out the middle men of Yemen and Lebanon.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Oct 24, 2023 7:04:26 GMT 1
The Israel army's expertise in recent years has been breaking girls' arms in the West Bank. This isn't 1973.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2023 7:23:20 GMT 1
The Israel army's expertise in recent years has been breaking girls' arms in the West Bank. This isn't 1973. I can't argue with that, but their 'defence' budget is pretty large, yet is actually dwarfed by Saudi Arabia who's budget is more three times that of Israel, but daft as it sounds the largest by GDP is actually Oman who hit 12% in 2020 according to the International Institute for Strategic Studies. The UK are at around 2.2%, while Israel are at around 4.5%.
They also have 170k active personnel, plus another 500k reservists on call. Let's not forget that they also have nuclear weapons. Funny that no-one has ever been able to confirm that though  |
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Oct 24, 2023 11:42:51 GMT 1
Taking the long view, over the next decade or so Israel needs to negotiate. It's hard-line approach will always mean conflict. I is a small country with neighbours who are growing in power and America's support can no longer be taken for granted. I suspect Israel would argue that is the same approach as a number of Arab states around them as well as many within Gaza and the West Bank. I keep hearing that an end to the occupation will bring about peace, a two state solution will bring about peace...can Israel be absolutely sure of that? Have Hamas, Hezbollah and others let it be known what part of Israel it does not consider to be occupied land (from the river to the sea remember)? Can Israel be sure that once these solutions are implemented Palestinians and others will not continue to try and kill Jews, Israelis, to wipe Israel off the map? And more so after the October 7th attack? And what of Hamas? What should we expect Israel to do after the events of October 7th? Considering what has been reported the comparisons to ISIS do not seem wide of the mark. So in order to consider such a long term approach would they first need to remove Hamas as they are now seeking to do? How could they trust that organization not to repeat the actions of October 7th if simply left to continue. However, does that not just bring about yet another generation of Palestinians who will want to hit back. And around we go. I just don't see how it ends at the moment and that's even looking to the long term. And more so after the October 7th attack because from what is reported we are talking about the murder, rape, torture, kidnapping, burning and more besides of men, women, children and babies. So its not just the attack from Hamas but the manner it took, it was a mess as it was this has just made things all the more difficult. |
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Post by martinshrew on Oct 24, 2023 12:21:19 GMT 1
Reports doing the rounds that Putin had a heart attack yesterday and was resuscitated ...
Whilst he's not directly involved Russia does have a lot of influence in that part of the world!
I'm quickly turning against Israel, they've started commiting what I can only see as war crimes. It's getting to be a very sticky situation.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Oct 24, 2023 13:31:19 GMT 1
The Israeli air force is also levelling the area that a ground invasion is going to be launched (if what we're told is to be believed). All maps are irrelevant. They have created thousands of sniper positions and they have difficulty detecting tunnels.
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Post by mcrshrew on Oct 24, 2023 19:02:52 GMT 1
Taking the long view, over the next decade or so Israel needs to negotiate. It's hard-line approach will always mean conflict. I is a small country with neighbours who are growing in power and America's support can no longer be taken for granted. I have to disagree here. Several other Arab states have normalised relations with Israel since Egypt in the 70s/80s (Menachem Begin, Anwar Al Sadat, Nivel Peace Prize). Egypt also despises Hamas as they have their origin in the Muslim Brotherhood, which is an enemy of the ruling Egyptian government and military (Al Sissi). Morocco and the Gulf States followed in 2020. The broker? Donald Trump. Jordan is another. You might ask about Saudi Arabia and friends, and fair enough. My answer: negotiations have been held and even if the average Arab despises Israel, these leaders practice realpolitik - do we really think a democratic revolution is going to overthrow Muhammad bin Salman? So pragma over ideology I'd the order of the day. They collaborate with Israel where they can from what I can tell, and if it's under the table then better. The Palestinians are losing friends, not gaining them, and Israel's impunity is stronger than ever. And if a supposedly left-wing US (and British too!) president support them, then what are they worried about? Israel is the US's main ally in the region. |
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 25, 2023 11:26:28 GMT 1
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Oct 25, 2023 11:48:58 GMT 1
Taking the long view, over the next decade or so Israel needs to negotiate. It's hard-line approach will always mean conflict. I is a small country with neighbours who are growing in power and America's support can no longer be taken for granted. The Palestinians are losing friends, not gaining them And that was before October 7th... How the Arab world turned against Hamas
Whether it will turn out that way who knows but I just get the feeling this might well be a watershed moment. As an awful lot of people have been exposed for who and what they are (and not just Hamas). |
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Post by servernaside on Oct 25, 2023 13:51:45 GMT 1
Despite the political rhetoric about being 'brotherly Arabs', the people who dislike the Palestinians the most are their fellow Arabs who view them with profound distrust and see them as an impediment to their economic, cultural and political well-being.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Oct 25, 2023 15:49:01 GMT 1
Presumably people will be now be concerned about their jobs if they defend the UN Secretary General.
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Post by martinshrew on Oct 25, 2023 16:07:59 GMT 1
Is the UN for for purpose in 2023?
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 25, 2023 16:41:58 GMT 1
Is the UN for for purpose in 2023? Yes. Why would it not be? |
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