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Post by martinshrew on Oct 26, 2023 16:35:21 GMT 1
Is the UN for for purpose in 2023? Yes. Why would it not be? There's less peace than ever, it's empty words and big salaries. |
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Post by martinshrew on Oct 26, 2023 16:38:28 GMT 1
3,000 innocent children and 1,700 women have been killed by Israel in Gaza in less than three weeks.
I'm just not comfortable with how the West have given unequivocal and blanket support to Israel, I almost feel it's emboldened them to just ruthlessly flatten Gaza without giving a toss for your average Palestinian as they know the West is on side ...
Russian has commitment war crimes and atrocities in Ukraine, to me it looks like Israel is doing the same in Gaza.
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 26, 2023 19:53:11 GMT 1
3,000 innocent children and 1,700 women have been killed by Israel in Gaza in less than three weeks. I'm just not comfortable with how the West have given unequivocal and blanket support to Israel, I almost feel it's emboldened them to just ruthlessly flatten Gaza without giving a toss for your average Palestinian as they know the West is on side ... Russian has commitment war crimes and atrocities in Ukraine, to me it looks like Israel is doing the same in Gaza. You are spot on there. A hard line Israeli government with a population wanting action to get the hostages back after the violation of their country, but they should be careful, actions like those they are taking come back and bite you. |
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Post by armchairfan on Oct 26, 2023 21:03:19 GMT 1
Whilst I am becoming more and more concerned with the Israeli actions, yet broadly in sympathy with their stated aim (of eliminating Hamas as a functioning organisation, as I understand it) I must ask whether the source of the figures quoted for deaths in Gaza has been checked, and the figures verified; if these are purely numbers provided by Hamas, I think they should be treated with caution, as obviously the higher those numbers, the greater is the international pressure on Israel to behave properly.
I acknowledge,of course, that verification is nigh impossible at present, but to accept without question one side's version is not good practice.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Oct 27, 2023 2:46:33 GMT 1
Maps certainly are useless, the Israeli army is now bulldozing streets in Jenin and destroying its water mains.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Oct 27, 2023 6:48:27 GMT 1
Whilst I am becoming more and more concerned with the Israeli actions, yet broadly in sympathy with their stated aim (of eliminating Hamas as a functioning organisation, as I understand it) I must ask whether the source of the figures quoted for deaths in Gaza has been checked, and the figures verified; if these are purely numbers provided by Hamas, I think they should be treated with caution, as obviously the higher those numbers, the greater is the international pressure on Israel to behave properly. I acknowledge,of course, that verification is nigh impossible at present, but to accept without question one side's version is not good practice. The first casualty as war and all that. Both sides will be desperate to win international support and as such, as you say, things ought to be treated with caution. Just look to the recent Al-Ahli Arab hospital incident, pretty sure it didn't take an awful lot of time for Hamas to announce that 500 people had died and this was then reported by the worlds media. Yet how they were able to provide such a number so quickly and that it looks as though it was the hospital car park that was hit and therefore, its possible the numbers would be much lower as a result, so you do have to question the information given and reported. One is too many of course but I agree, its something that needs to be taken into consideration (both sides have a history of spreading misinformation). |
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Post by davycrockett on Oct 27, 2023 9:27:46 GMT 1
Seems pretty obvious the plans to force the Palestinians South and clear the North destroying infrastructure reducing the size of Palestinian land even further creating a demilitarised buffer zone.
Defending Israel or Ethnic Cleansing,
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Post by martinshrew on Oct 27, 2023 9:46:38 GMT 1
Whilst I am becoming more and more concerned with the Israeli actions, yet broadly in sympathy with their stated aim (of eliminating Hamas as a functioning organisation, as I understand it) I must ask whether the source of the figures quoted for deaths in Gaza has been checked, and the figures verified; if these are purely numbers provided by Hamas, I think they should be treated with caution, as obviously the higher those numbers, the greater is the international pressure on Israel to behave properly. I acknowledge,of course, that verification is nigh impossible at present, but to accept without question one side's version is not good practice. You make a very valid point, the information war so to speak is more prevalent than ever. I believe Hamas released a list with 7,000 names; though they also said Israel bombed the hospital which was clearly untrue. After what felt like a long peaceful period until Blair got in bed with the yanks; the world has felt unstable ever since. |
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Post by armchairfan on Oct 27, 2023 10:06:56 GMT 1
Seems pretty obvious the plans to force the Palestinians South and clear the North destroying infrastructure reducing the size of Palestinian land even further creating a demilitarised buffer zone. Defending Israel or Ethnic Cleansing, . A valid question, at first glance, but membership of HAMAS is not decided by ethnicity, and therefore it is incorrect to conflate the terms "Palestinian" and "Hamas"; it follows that the elimination of Hamas IS " defending Israel", and NOT Ethnic Cleansing". In any event, as far as I am aware, the stated aim of Hamas is a free Palestine "from the river (Jordan) to the sea (the Mediterranean):does that constitute support for the much-vaunted "Two-state" solution, I wonder. |
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Post by davycrockett on Oct 27, 2023 10:52:00 GMT 1
Seems pretty obvious the plans to force the Palestinians South and clear the North destroying infrastructure reducing the size of Palestinian land even further creating a demilitarised buffer zone. Defending Israel or Ethnic Cleansing, . A valid question, at first glance, but membership of HAMAS is not decided by ethnicity, and therefore it is incorrect to conflate the terms "Palestinian" and "Hamas"; it follows that the elimination of Hamas IS " defending Israel", and NOT Ethnic Cleansing". In any event, as far as I am aware, the stated aim of Hamas is a free Palestine "from the river (Jordan) to the sea (the Mediterranean):does that constitute support for the much-vaunted "Two-state" solution, I wonder. I’d agree except the Israelis aren’t differentiating between innocent Palestinians and Hamas so targeting both Hamas and Palestinians to achieve the elimination of Hamas could and should be seen as Ethnic cleansing. We’ll see how much of the current Palestinian territory is left after the end of the Israeli ‘defence’ and eradication of Hamas. By then we’ll also have accurate figures on ‘civilian’ casualties. |
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Post by servernaside on Oct 27, 2023 15:47:04 GMT 1
3,000 innocent children and 1,700 women have been killed by Israel in Gaza in less than three weeks. I'm just not comfortable with how the West have given unequivocal and blanket support to Israel, I almost feel it's emboldened them to just ruthlessly flatten Gaza without giving a toss for your average Palestinian as they know the West is on side ... Russian has commitment war crimes and atrocities in Ukraine, to me it looks like Israel is doing the same in Gaza. I don't recall Ukrainian terrorists attacking Russian civilians prior to Putin's invasion of Ukraine. I must have missed that. |
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Post by SeanBroseley on Oct 27, 2023 18:26:51 GMT 1
3,000 innocent children and 1,700 women have been killed by Israel in Gaza in less than three weeks. I'm just not comfortable with how the West have given unequivocal and blanket support to Israel, I almost feel it's emboldened them to just ruthlessly flatten Gaza without giving a toss for your average Palestinian as they know the West is on side ... Russian has commitment war crimes and atrocities in Ukraine, to me it looks like Israel is doing the same in Gaza. I don't recall Ukrainian terrorists attacking Russian civilians prior to Putin's invasion of Ukraine. I must have missed that. You may very well have done. If you include ethnic Russians within Ukraine's borders from 2014. |
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Post by servernaside on Oct 27, 2023 18:45:55 GMT 1
I don't recall Ukrainian terrorists attacking Russian civilians prior to Putin's invasion of Ukraine. I must have missed that. You may very well have done. If you include ethnic Russians within Ukraine's borders from 2014. Have it your way, Vladimir. |
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Post by SeanBroseley on Oct 27, 2023 18:49:08 GMT 1
You may very well have done. If you include ethnic Russians within Ukraine's borders from 2014. Have it your way, Vladimir. Clown. |
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Post by SeanBroseley on Oct 27, 2023 18:53:15 GMT 1
And this is part of the problem - or at least illustrative of the problem - Russia invades Ukraine and Ukrainians have the right to self defence. Israel occupies territories outside its borders and has a right to self defence when Palestinians oppose it.
The reality is that Palestinians have a right to defend themselves against occupation. People who think that this started on 7th October 2023 will have missed this - and a few other things.
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 27, 2023 19:11:30 GMT 1
Have it your way, Vladimir. Clown. A couple of supposed grown ups can't even disagree without resorting to this? No wonder the world's in a mess. |
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Post by armchairfan on Oct 27, 2023 19:52:28 GMT 1
And this is part of the problem - or at least illustrative of the problem - Russia invades Ukraine and Ukrainians have the right to self defence. Israel occupies territories outside its borders and has a right to self defence when Palestinians oppose it. The reality is that Palestinians have a right to defend themselves against occupation. People who think that this started on 7th October 2023 will have missed this - and a few other things. Regrettably, another part of the problem is that simplistic statements such as that - whether accurate or not - are put forward as an explanation or justification for recent events; far greater minds than either of ours have been trying to solve this issue for the best part of three quarters of a century, and I suggest that none of them thought that a re-hashing of that Fawlty Towers scene...."You started it".....would be a good opening to negotiation I honestly thought you were better than that! |
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Post by SeanBroseley on Oct 27, 2023 19:58:53 GMT 1
A couple of supposed grown ups can't even disagree without resorting to this? No wonder the world's in a mess. I don't think I have that much power. However I do claim a strong "fair comment" defence. |
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Post by SeanBroseley on Oct 27, 2023 20:52:56 GMT 1
The Russian-Ukraine War is like watching the Frei Korps fight the Mafia with the various civilian populations taking the most punishment - Ukrainian workers have their trade unions rights stripped away and ethnic Russians (should Ukraine regain its 2022 or 2014 borders) being unable to live in the neighbourhoods going forward. The Israel-Palestinian situation is really simple. We have one party that has enormous power and acts on another population of people with total impunity and is never held accountable for anything. There is no symmetry in the relationship. The complexity only comes into it if we try to obfuscate what we would elsewhere - for example in the Russian-Ukrainian War - see clearly and call out - 1) white phosphorus, 2) heavy bombing in densely populated areas, Turning off the internet, mobile phone networks, water supply and electricity supply. Seeking not to obfuscate in this way. There are three principles of international law relating to occupation (link below) :
Three Principles of Occupation under International Law
There will be people who will never accept that these have been broken. In which case they will need to address the remaining content of the video the above clip is from. Or they may skirt over these and decide that the Palestinians have an obligation to quietly accept their lot and eke out what life they can in their reduced circumstances. War is tough and life is as well. In these circumstances there is no requirement under international law for the occupied civilian population to desist from taking up armed struggle against the foreign power. That is not to say that their actions do not come under the rules of law. The same articles that apply to the foreign power (link below) :
Rules of WarTonight Israel is launching its ground invasion of the Gaza territory. The Palestinians have the right to defend themselves against this attack. They have, of course, no chance of repelling the murderous use of overwhelming military power. But they will be right to resist. |
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Post by SeanBroseley on Oct 27, 2023 20:53:52 GMT 1
And this is part of the problem - or at least illustrative of the problem - Russia invades Ukraine and Ukrainians have the right to self defence. Israel occupies territories outside its borders and has a right to self defence when Palestinians oppose it. The reality is that Palestinians have a right to defend themselves against occupation. People who think that this started on 7th October 2023 will have missed this - and a few other things. Regrettably, another part of the problem is that simplistic statements such as that - whether accurate or not - are put forward as an explanation or justification for recent events; far greater minds than either of ours have been trying to solve this issue for the best part of three quarters of a century, and I suggest that none of them thought that a re-hashing of that Fawlty Towers scene...."You started it".....would be a good opening to negotiation I honestly thought you were better than that! Do you imagine that I have any interest in what you say - even less what you think? Surely not? |
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Post by armchairfan on Oct 27, 2023 21:07:33 GMT 1
There's none so deaf....
And contrary to what you may think of me - if anything- I value discussion; thank goodness YOU'RE not part of any negotiating team who will have to sort out this tragic mess.
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Post by jamo on Oct 27, 2023 21:21:10 GMT 1
Regrettably, another part of the problem is that simplistic statements such as that - whether accurate or not - are put forward as an explanation or justification for recent events; far greater minds than either of ours have been trying to solve this issue for the best part of three quarters of a century, and I suggest that none of them thought that a re-hashing of that Fawlty Towers scene...."You started it".....would be a good opening to negotiation I honestly thought you were better than that! Do you imagine that I have any interest in what you say - even less what you think? Surely not? With respect Sean, you have responded. Therefore you’ve answered your question. |
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 27, 2023 22:22:03 GMT 1
Israel appears to be stepping things up tonight. This could go badly for all concerned, sure Israel can march in and "win", but they'll be more attacks on them, they won't be safe.
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Post by jamo on Oct 27, 2023 22:31:51 GMT 1
Israel appears to be stepping things up tonight. This could go badly for all concerned, sure Israel can march in and "win", but they'll be more attacks on them, they won't be safe. And go badly for all it most surely will. I had hoped that the political pressure and wishes of Israel’s closest allies would bear some fruit, encouraging patience and restraint in their understandable need for retaliation for the Oct 7th atrocities. The gung ho approach we are witnessing will see this whole mess draw more and more countries into the carnage |
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Post by martinshrew on Oct 28, 2023 9:50:00 GMT 1
Israel appears to be stepping things up tonight. This could go badly for all concerned, sure Israel can march in and "win", but they'll be more attacks on them, they won't be safe. And go badly for all it most surely will. I had hoped that the political pressure and wishes of Israel’s closest allies would bear some fruit, encouraging patience and restraint in their understandable need for retaliation for the Oct 7th atrocities. The gung ho approach we are witnessing will see this whole mess draw more and more countries into the carnage The yanks will be licking their lips, bunch of freaks. |
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 28, 2023 10:45:05 GMT 1
Israel appears to be stepping things up tonight. This could go badly for all concerned, sure Israel can march in and "win", but they'll be more attacks on them, they won't be safe. And go badly for all it most surely will. I had hoped that the political pressure and wishes of Israel’s closest allies would bear some fruit, encouraging patience and restraint in their understandable need for retaliation for the Oct 7th atrocities. The gung ho approach we are witnessing will see this whole mess draw more and more countries into the carnage Even if no more countries by some miracle, more lone suicide bombers, etc. prepared to take out as many Israelis as possible wherever they are in the world. |
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Post by dachshund on Oct 28, 2023 10:58:39 GMT 1
There's none so deaf.... And contrary to what you may think of me - if anything- I value discussion; thank goodness YOU'RE not part of any negotiating team who will have to sort out this tragic mess. There comes a point in life, the earlier the better, that you realise there’s absolutely zero value in getting drawn into back and forths with small-minded, spiteful, unpleasant and usually bald men who have hardly ever left Shropshire |
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Oct 28, 2023 11:01:06 GMT 1
Think this is worth a read and so a share, again on the history and complexity of the situation in Israel today but also the reaction we have seen to recent events. Link to the article is in the Tweet...
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Post by dachshund on Oct 28, 2023 11:55:56 GMT 1
Think this is worth a read and so a share, again on the history and complexity of the situation in Israel today but also the reaction we have seen to recent events. Link to the article is in the Tweet... Painfully one-sided and based on some false straw man that those who want Palestinian civilians to stop being murdered have sympathy for the recent crimes of Hamas. Also denies any genocide has taken place or is taking place. Might as well have just linked to a website for the Israeli state |
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 28, 2023 13:47:53 GMT 1
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