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Post by SeanBroseley on Oct 30, 2023 0:18:59 GMT 1
It is simple. Only when we seek to obfuscate because the simplicity of the situation doesn't serve our interests or our priors do we bring complexity into it.
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Post by dachshund on Oct 30, 2023 5:47:21 GMT 1
As a major power bombs and kills children - children! - day and night, any who object to it are told by ghouls in the media that in order to be qualified to object to this, they must propose a better solution. Absolute and gross dishonesty.
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Post by armchairfan on Oct 30, 2023 8:47:57 GMT 1
It is simple. Only when we seek to obfuscate because the simplicity of the situation doesn't serve our interests or our priors do we bring complexity into it. Of course it is simple - that is why I repeat that far greater minds than either of us has failed so spectacularly and so tragically to solve the problem.... |
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Post by dachshund on Oct 30, 2023 9:01:15 GMT 1
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Post by martinshrew on Oct 30, 2023 9:08:55 GMT 1
At least 3,195 under 18s have died in the Palestinian enclave so far, according to the Hamas-led health ministry.
Save the Children say this makes up more than 40% of the 7,703 people killed in Gaza and, with a further 1,000 children reported missing, the death toll is likely much higher.
"The number of children reported killed in just three weeks in Gaza is more than the number killed in armed conflict globally - across more than 20 countries - over the course of a whole year, for the last three years,"
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Oct 30, 2023 11:05:52 GMT 1
But then what do we expect Israel to do in response to the October 7th attack. Do we expect them to leave Hamas in place to regroup, rearm and plan for more attacks against Israel. Which looking to their stated aims, why would they not. Lets not forget (as some things do seem to have been) Palestinian militants continue to fire rockets into Israel, the attack did not stop on October 7th, it continues today. And we then have the makeup of Gaza and the tactics of Hamas and other militant groups, they have made it clear that they use the Palestinian people as human shields. This is from 2014... Does Hamas use civilians as human shields?...nothing seems to have changed since. Hamas operates in built up civilian areas and it has been reported that Hamas has once again told civilians to remain in place even though warnings have been issued that they should move. No easy feat of course but even so, that Hamas are telling people to remain has nothing to do with the practicality of it but rather.. “The policy of people confronting the Israeli warplanes with their bare chests in order to protect their homes has proven effective against the occupation… we in Hamas call upon our people to adopt this policy in order to protect the Palestinian homes.”As mentioned in the article I shared above... In an interview with Khaled Meshaal, a member of the Hamas politburo, the Arab journalist Rasha Nabil highlighted Hamas’s sacrifice of its own people for its political interests. Meshaal argued that this was just the cost of resistance: “Thirty million Russians died to defeat Germany,” he said. No doubt the rockets that continue to be fired from Gaza into Israel are being fired from build up areas, for example. Its reported, although not yet confirmed as far as I can see, that Hamas has located its headquarters under a hospital. We should hold Israel to account of course and pressure should continue with regards to where and what they target but things are not as simple as some would have you believe. And I'm not sure how a two state solution can be achieved with Hamas still in place after October 7th. And that still has to be the aim and perhaps the barbarity of those attacks are to be a real watershed and we finally see some progress towards that aim. Which means of course its not just Hamas we need to see the back off but Netanyahu and others in Israel who have been more than happy to use Hamas as a means to avoid peace talks and progress towards a two state solution as well destabilize the PA in the West Bank. Hopefully Netanyahu will be out on his arse sooner rather than later. I dunno, its a mess of a situation again.  Lets hope this latest cycle of violence is over as quickly as possible. Lets hope the violence doesn't spread and escalate elsewhere within the region and lets hope we finally see some progress towards an end to all this. |
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Post by SeanBroseley on Oct 30, 2023 13:04:47 GMT 1
The first step is that you have to ensure that neither party can act with impunity. As long as the current situation continues there will never be any movement towards peace. How can we get there?
1) Give the USA (and to a lesser extent Europe) bigger headaches domestically and globally. Some things are coming down the pipeline. But I am looking to Ukraine at the moment. It needs to do something dramatic to reorient attention to itself. Perhaps, a radiological event.
2) Erode USA Hegemony.
3) Change the Palestinian Authority's approach on the West Bank towards armed resistance. Peaceful resistance has failed - Israel guns down unarmed protestors (with impunity).
4) Close the gap militarily between Hamas and Israel. Palestinians don't need to have its own air force or tank regiments but they need a stockpile of current and sophisticated weapons to ensure that incursions into Gaza and the West Bank are not - essentially - cost free.
The more likely option remains the continued extermination and expulsion of Palestinians. While making sad noises.
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 30, 2023 23:01:44 GMT 1
Israel still can't see it, but reactions so far should tell them that what they are doing in Gaza is losing them friends. Never mind, they have had too many friends for too many years.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Oct 31, 2023 9:36:08 GMT 1
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Post by The Clash 1966 on Oct 31, 2023 10:57:16 GMT 1
As a major power bombs and kills children - children! - day and night, any who object to it are told by ghouls in the media that in order to be qualified to object to this, they must propose a better solution. Absolute and gross dishonesty. What did Hamas do at that Kibbutz and festival on 7th October ? They murdered children and anyone they could get their hands on and then paraded the dead bodies for all to see. Another massacre by Islam that has started another war. They really put the fun into fundamental. |
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 31, 2023 12:09:17 GMT 1
As a major power bombs and kills children - children! - day and night, any who object to it are told by ghouls in the media that in order to be qualified to object to this, they must propose a better solution. Absolute and gross dishonesty. What did Hamas do at that Kibbutz and festival on 7th October ? They murdered children and anyone they could get their hands on and then paraded the dead bodies for all to see. Another massacre by Islam that has started another war. They really put the fun into fundamental. Hamas terrorists.
Israel? They purport to be a civilised country, but are currently acting like terrorists.
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Post by davycrockett on Oct 31, 2023 12:26:14 GMT 1
Why are they arguing about a cease fire verses a temporary pause in fighting? Bloody politicians
noun
noun: cease-fire
a temporary suspension of fighting
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Post by martinshrew on Oct 31, 2023 12:41:40 GMT 1
As a major power bombs and kills children - children! - day and night, any who object to it are told by ghouls in the media that in order to be qualified to object to this, they must propose a better solution. Absolute and gross dishonesty. What did Hamas do at that Kibbutz and festival on 7th October ? They murdered children and anyone they could get their hands on and then paraded the dead bodies for all to see. Another massacre by Islam that has started another war. They really put the fun into fundamental. So a terrorist attack occured and you believe the legal, humanitarian and sensible response is to respond with terror attacks? Interesting ... |
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 31, 2023 12:55:36 GMT 1
Israel/Palestine, eventually they have to co exist. Perhaps they should consider that? They have the backing of some major Western powers, time to consider their response. America says their response to 9/11 was wrong. Britain had a response to Maggie almost being blown up in Brighton, innocents getting blown up Saurday afternoon shopping, missiles fired at Downing street, etc. Time to consider what to do to achieve an end goal of peaceful coexistance.
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Post by The Clash 1966 on Oct 31, 2023 14:13:15 GMT 1
What did Hamas do at that Kibbutz and festival on 7th October ? They murdered children and anyone they could get their hands on and then paraded the dead bodies for all to see. Another massacre by Islam that has started another war. They really put the fun into fundamental. So a terrorist attack occured and you believe the legal, humanitarian and sensible response is to respond with terror attacks? Interesting ... Israel are at war . So let's just agree to disagree. |
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Post by Valerioch on Oct 31, 2023 20:29:08 GMT 1
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Post by dachshund on Oct 31, 2023 20:49:36 GMT 1
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 1, 2023 11:45:33 GMT 1
So a terrorist attack occured and you believe the legal, humanitarian and sensible response is to respond with terror attacks? Interesting ... Israel are at war. And against an enemy that deliberately positions itself within built up areas and amongst the civilian population. CNN here taking the Israeli military to task over the recent missile attack on Gaza that resulted in civilian casualties. Again it tells us that Hamas is using the Palestinian people as human shields and again it tells us how difficult it is for Israel to target Hamas without causing civilian causalities as a result. Its an awful state of affairs but do we expect Israel to allow Hamas to continue to operate out of Gaza and continue to rain rockets down on Israel with impunity again and again as retaliation is deemed unacceptable because of the inevitable civilian causalities because of how Hamas operates? Just to add that it is reported that those they targeted were killed (Qassam brigades announce the loss of Jabaliya brigade commander Ibrahim Biari and several other fighters when their underground operations center collapsed after being hit by an Israeli air strike. Hamas media says Biari led the assault on “Erez” in Al Aqsa floods campaign day 1)... |
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 1, 2023 12:22:59 GMT 1
As a major power bombs and kills children - children! - day and night, any who object to it are told by ghouls in the media that in order to be qualified to object to this, they must propose a better solution. Absolute and gross dishonesty. What did Hamas do at that Kibbutz and festival on 7th October ? Something it seems (if this is legit it's from October 24th) they would repeat again if the opportunity arises... |
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Post by armchairfan on Nov 1, 2023 16:28:06 GMT 1
What did Hamas do at that Kibbutz and festival on 7th October ? Something it seems (if this is legit it's from October 24th) they would repeat again if the opportunity arises... The inevitable playing of the "victim" card, par excellence. The tragic truth is that the Gazans are victims in REALITY - victims of the ham-fisted and unthinking policies of successive Israeli governments; if, however, Hamas believes that their status, as genuine victims, will be in any way improved/enhanced by actions such as those of 7th October, they must be totally deranged. |
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Post by SeanBroseley on Nov 2, 2023 10:55:09 GMT 1
I think the Palestinians need to jettison Hamas and the Palestinian Authority and go back to trusting the Israeli government's capacity to treat them as equals and complying with UN resolutions. I defy anyone to say this hasn't worked over the last 75 years.
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Post by armchairfan on Nov 2, 2023 12:01:24 GMT 1
I think the Palestinians need to jettison Hamas and the Palestinian Authority and go back to trusting the Israeli government's capacity to treat them as equals and complying with UN resolutions. I defy anyone to say this hasn't worked over the last 75 years. On that, you may be right, but Hamas have first to be persuaded to allow a vote by Gazans, and, in the event of their thus being democratically defeated, to abide by the result...an interesting task. |
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Post by armchairfan on Nov 2, 2023 12:19:04 GMT 1
I think the Palestinians need to jettison Hamas and the Palestinian Authority and go back to trusting the Israeli government's capacity to treat them as equals and complying with UN resolutions. I defy anyone to say this hasn't worked over the last 75 years. On that, you may be right, but Hamas have first to be persuaded to allow a vote by Gazans, and, in the event of their thus being democratically defeated, to abide by the result...an interesting task. And it goes without saying that Israel, too,would have to trust such an outcome! |
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Post by jamo on Nov 2, 2023 12:48:49 GMT 1
I think the Palestinians need to jettison Hamas and the Palestinian Authority and go back to trusting the Israeli government's capacity to treat them as equals and complying with UN resolutions. I defy anyone to say this hasn't worked over the last 75 years. On that, you may be right, but Hamas have first to be persuaded to allow a vote by Gazans, and, in the event of their thus being democratically defeated, to abide by the result...an interesting task. Whoosh…… |
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Post by armchairfan on Nov 2, 2023 13:27:19 GMT 1
On that, you may be right, but Hamas have first to be persuaded to allow a vote by Gazans, and, in the event of their thus being democratically defeated, to abide by the result...an interesting task. Whoosh…… Huh? |
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Post by SeanBroseley on Nov 2, 2023 14:44:28 GMT 1
But what has happened is that the "sensibles in charge" have decided to press the "More deaths" button. Something that will carry on until Israel reaches the exchange rate it wants. I can't imagine that is going to be anything less than 20:1.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 3, 2023 8:34:47 GMT 1
The alt-left in all their glory by the looks... White supremacist patriarchy to blame for Palestinian deaths, declare feminists“The violence of the oppressed must never be equated with that of the oppressor” apparently, according to Sisters Uncut anyhow, founded to campaign against cuts to domestic violence services. Yet when you consider on October 7th Hamas murdered women and girls, raped women and girls, tortured women and girls, kidnapped women and girls and its reported that a woman was found with her stomach cut open and her unborn baby led dead beside her...well, you know what I mean. |
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Post by SeanBroseley on Nov 3, 2023 9:32:54 GMT 1
Biologically unborn children are not in their mother's stomachs. The alt-right on this board will be warning us not to pee in the same toilet as women in case they get pregnant.
Like the throwing of babies into ovens happened at the start of the Nakba in 1948 to Palestinian babies, the tearing of an unborn baby from its mother's womb occurred during the pogram on the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2023 9:45:08 GMT 1
This situation isn't going to improve in the foreseeable future and if the different factions on a football message board can't find any semblance of a consensus what chance is there for the actual extremists on both sides of this conflict? We are as far removed from this war as it's possible to be or at least we should be, but politicians of all sides and the media are falling over each other to force their opinions down our throats and forcing us to take one side over the other. I don't like being told which team to support and I would imagine that most of us on here feel the same way.
As someone else pointed out up thread the two state solution is pretty much dead in the water, due to the (illegal) settlements that have sprung up and expanded in the West Bank over the last few decades. With that out of the way there has to be another route to a sustainable peace throughout the area. Perhaps instead of pouring fuel on the fires by offering unquestioning support for either side in this conflict the west should be providing a route out of all out war.
I know that there are many in the US that would love to see this spiral out of control to force the hand of Iran and therefore give the green light to do there what they failed to do in Iraq and Afghanistan. Iran is already involved in one proxy war in Yemen, is tied up with supplying Russia for their war in Ukraine, is allegedly funding Hamas and is potentially going to force Hezbollah to open a second front with Israel, so would be less able to fend off an attack by the west. All that oil and no US corporations to take control of it, if a few hundred thousand have to die those corporations would consider it a price worth paying. It's not like it would be anyone from their section of society.
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Post by Valerioch on Nov 5, 2023 16:45:50 GMT 1
Ref the above
“We are as far removed from this war as it's possible to be or at least we should be”
I wish that was the case, the scenes we are seeing near daily in our major cities are sickening, anti Jewish racist marches that should be banned. All across the western world to be fair. Sad to see and dangerous for us all
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Lets hope this latest cycle of violence is over as quickly as possible. Lets hope the violence doesn't spread and escalate elsewhere within the region and lets hope we finally see some progress towards an end to all this.
