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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2023 17:23:06 GMT 1
Ref the above “We are as far removed from this war as it's possible to be or at least we should be” I wish that was the case, the scenes we are seeing near daily in our major cities are sickening, anti Jewish racist marches that should be banned. All across the western world to be fair. Sad to see and dangerous for us all Anti-Jewish, anti-Semitic, anti-apartheid or anti-Israeli aggression against civilians? Depends on your point of view really. |
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Post by armchairfan on Nov 5, 2023 17:48:03 GMT 1
Ref the above “We are as far removed from this war as it's possible to be or at least we should be” I wish that was the case, the scenes we are seeing near daily in our major cities are sickening, anti Jewish racist marches that should be banned. All across the western world to be fair. Sad to see and dangerous for us all Anti-Jewish, anti-Semitic, anti-apartheid or anti-Israeli aggression against civilians? Depends on your point of view really. Whilst I tend to agree with those comments, Neil's response is also valid, especially as it proves that there are NO absolutes in a world of infinite nuance: all we can do is express our own point of view. |
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Drew
Midland League Division One
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Post by Drew on Nov 5, 2023 20:21:54 GMT 1
Hamas need to release all the hostages and ordinary decent Palestinians need to rise up and overthrow Hamas. Then the war will stop.
Until then crack on Israel.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Nov 5, 2023 20:55:51 GMT 1
There needs to be an exchange of hostages between the two sides - to the extent that any of the hostages in Gaza are still alive.
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Post by martinshrew on Nov 5, 2023 21:07:57 GMT 1
I fully believe Israel are openly commiting genocide.
If this was Russian or a middle-eastern Muslim country the west and the world in general would be up in arms.
Children have to stop losing their lives immediately.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2023 21:51:52 GMT 1
Ref the above “We are as far removed from this war as it's possible to be or at least we should be” I wish that was the case, the scenes we are seeing near daily in our major cities are sickening, anti Jewish racist marches that should be banned. All across the western world to be fair. Sad to see and dangerous for us all Anti-Jewish, anti-Semitic, anti-apartheid or anti-Israeli aggression against civilians? Depends on your point of view really. Today on Twitter I've seen videos of the protesters abusing families leaving McDonalds, attacking a man holding a 'Hamas are terrorists' sign, abusing a man wearing a poppy, singing anti-Semitic songs and several different videos of them attacking the police. I know that many people will say it's a tiny minority, but these sort of things are happening each week in each protest. And I suspect that support for the protests and the cause will reduce, because whilst most people don't agree with the actions of the Israeli government, they don't support attacking innocent individuals/businesses. |
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Post by jamo on Nov 5, 2023 22:03:21 GMT 1
I fully believe Israel are openly commiting genocide. If this was Russian or a middle-eastern Muslim country the west and the world in general would be up in arms. Children have to stop losing their lives immediately. Absolutely agree with this. There is a very clear difference between a nation state exercising an absolute right to protect itself in a measured, strategic and commensurate way and - what appears to me at least, to be a vengeful orgy of mass murder against unharmed and exposed people who quite literally are sitting targets. When people say ‘crack on Israel’ what they are actually endorsing and are supportive of is the wanton extermination of a whole generation of innocent children. There is a very real need for a ratcheting up of protest and counter arguments from all areas of the watching world in order to oppose the current narrative being spouted by our elected representatives that by not supporting Israeli military action then your are in some way anti-Semitic and in favour of Hamas, which no right minded person would be. |
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 5, 2023 22:24:20 GMT 1
Genocide is "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group". Israel is targeting Hamas (and other militant groups), their infrastructure and their ability to wage war. Hamas is not a people or a nation, its a terrorist organisation (which attacked Israel on October 7th, continues to attack Israel today and intends to do so again and again).
When looking to the population trends within the Palestinian territories it does not tell me that Israel intends genocide on the Palestinian people. Nor do I consider the tragic death of innocent civilians in conflict or war to immediately constitute genocide. I do not believe, for example, that Britain committed genocide against the German people during World War 2 even though many did die as a result of our actions. And its interesting to know whether those who consider Israel's current actions in Gaza to be genocide whether they think the same about the October 7th and continued attacks on Israel (as that has also resulted in a large number of innocent men, women and children losing their lives).
What is happening is a tragedy and I have no doubt the vast majority on here want to see this end as soon as possible but I do think words matter (and more so when we see how this conflict has reverberated around the world).
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Post by The Clash 1966 on Nov 5, 2023 22:25:42 GMT 1
Ref the above “We are as far removed from this war as it's possible to be or at least we should be” I wish that was the case, the scenes we are seeing near daily in our major cities are sickening, anti Jewish racist marches that should be banned. All across the western world to be fair. Sad to see and dangerous for us all Anti-Jewish, anti-Semitic, anti-apartheid or anti-Israeli aggression against civilians? Depends on your point of view really. London seems to be turning into pro Palestinian Nuremberg. |
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Post by jamo on Nov 5, 2023 23:20:45 GMT 1
We are told that Israel is only targeting Hamas.
Are we to assume that the 5000 under ten year old Palestinians who have been killed to be the junior wing of that particular organisation?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2023 8:44:50 GMT 1
Genocide is "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group". Israel is targeting Hamas (and other militant groups), their infrastructure and their ability to wage war. Hamas is not a people or a nation, its a terrorist organisation (which attacked Israel on October 7th, continues to attack Israel today and intends to do so again and again). When looking to the population trends within the Palestinian territories it does not tell me that Israel intends genocide on the Palestinian people. Nor do I consider the tragic death of innocent civilians in conflict or war to immediately constitute genocide. I do not believe, for example, that Britain committed genocide against the German people during World War 2 even though many did die as a result of our actions. And its interesting to know whether those who consider Israel's current actions in Gaza to be genocide whether they think the same about the October 7th and continued attacks on Israel (as that has also resulted in a large number of innocent men, women and children losing their lives). What is happening is a tragedy and I have no doubt the vast majority on here want to see this end as soon as possible but I do think words matter (and more so when we see how this conflict has reverberated around the world). You are correct, words do matter and I think that genocide is a very strong word, but sadly overused, even in this case.
Ethnic cleansing are the two words that sum up what Israel is doing so much better. If they manage to drive most of the population of Gaza city south into the relative safety of places like Khan Yunis or Al Musaddar they will be able to 'annex' Gaza city and send in the bulldozers. Some quite tasty beachfront real estate in that area. Cynical? Maybe, but is it really all that far fetched.
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Drew
Midland League Division One
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Post by Drew on Nov 6, 2023 9:50:58 GMT 1
Children die in Gaza mainly because Hamas use them as human shields. Children died in Israel because they were deliberately targeted, including the 30 Children still kidnapped.
If your logic is to treat the two as morally equivalent then your logic is very skewed.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 6, 2023 11:07:16 GMT 1
Children die in Gaza mainly because Hamas use them as human shields. And its worth mentioning that Hamas are very open about this, therefore there is no denying this is not the case. Hamas positions itself within built up areas, embeds itself within the civilian population, uses civilians as human shields and demands those civilians remain in place even though have been warned to leave. In another recent interview when asked about why there are no bomb shelters for the civilian population of Gaza considering the number of tunnels dug from which Hamas operate, the Hamas spokesperson stated that that was the responsibility of the UN. I don't think it wide of the mark to say that Hamas is content to sacrifice the Palestinian people for political means and propaganda. And so I do not understand how people can look to the number of civilian casualties and from that alone conclude Israel is committing genocide (rather than civilian causalities being a consequence of Israel targeting Hamas and Hamas infrastructure taking into account how Hamas operates). But there you go, each to their own. And again, that would suggest to me that because of the number of civilians killed during World War 2 Britain intended genocide on the German people (men, women and children all who lost their lives). Which I simply can not get on board with. I just think its important to counter some of the claims we see (I doubt those who have made their minds up about this are going to change them). Israel have been very clear that their aim is to defeat Hamas so that Hamas are in no position to repeat the October 7th attacks (which they have openly stated they would repeat again and again if given the chance) and to stop the rockets that continue to be fired at Israel. I still take it that that is their intension. After that remains to be seen. |
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Post by SeanBroseley on Nov 6, 2023 16:26:18 GMT 1
If Hamas are using children as human shields then it's not working very well is it? The Gaza strip is a densely populated area the "human shields" argument does not mean that Israel has the right to not consider civilian life and act proportionately.
It's also important to note that the IDF has used human shields in the West Bank - in that they send a kidnapped Palestinian ahead into an area where they suspect people are willing to exercise their right to self defence. This includes the use of children to stand in front of IDF armoured vehicles to prevent stone throwing.
On the matter of acting proportionately, The Prime Minister of Jordan has stated that any move to expel the Palestinians from Gaza would be considered an act of war.
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Post by armchairfan on Nov 6, 2023 19:30:53 GMT 1
If Hamas are using children as human shields then it's not working very well is it? The Gaza strip is a densely populated area the "human shields" argument does not mean that Israel has the right not to consider civilian life and act proportionately. It's also important to note that the IDF has used human shields in the West Bank - in that they send a kidnapped Palestinian ahead into an area where they suspect people are willing to exercise their right to self defence. This includes the use of children to stand in front of IDF armoured vehicles to prevent stone throwing. On the matter of acting proportionately, The Prime Minister of Jordan has stated that any move to expel the Palestinians from Gaza would be considered an act of war. [br Don't run away with the idea that the terms "the Palestinians" and "Hamas" are interchangeable: one is a distinct ethnic group (I think), and the other a collection of sub-human entities, who will carry out any sort of atrocity to achieve their ends. It may be argued that Israel is of similar mind, but there are differing views on that, I accept. |
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Post by SeanBroseley on Nov 6, 2023 19:43:39 GMT 1
The use of terms like "sub-human" underpins the current genocide. In terms of the effects of Israel's munitions the terms "Hamas" and "Palestinians" are interchangeable.
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Post by armchairfan on Nov 6, 2023 19:50:30 GMT 1
The use of terms like "sub-human" underpins the current genocide. In terms of the effects of Israel's munitions the terms "Hamas" and "Palestinians" are interchangeable. As I intimated in my post, that is a matter of opinion, and NOT, as you incorrectly suggest, a matter of FACT; |
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Post by The Clash 1966 on Nov 6, 2023 20:16:15 GMT 1
It seems the vast amount on here have forgotten the 1400 Israelis and foreign nationals massacred in Israel last month. Yet all I hear is poor Palestine. You reap what you sow
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Post by armchairfan on Nov 6, 2023 20:27:44 GMT 1
It seems the vast amount on here have forgotten the 1400 Israelis and foreign nationals massacred in Israel last month. Yet all I hear is poor Palestine. You reap what you sow I certainly don't forget that, but some do, apparently; not keen however, on the sentiment expressed in your last sentence |
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Post by dachshund on Nov 6, 2023 20:35:48 GMT 1
It seems the vast amount on here have forgotten the 1400 Israelis and foreign nationals massacred in Israel last month. Yet all I hear is poor Palestine. You reap what you sow If you can’t see how stupid and unpleasant this is when posted in relation to civilians that had absolutely nothing to do with the actions of Hamas, I’m not sure there’s any help for you |
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Post by The Clash 1966 on Nov 6, 2023 20:51:12 GMT 1
It seems the vast amount on here have forgotten the 1400 Israelis and foreign nationals massacred in Israel last month. Yet all I hear is poor Palestine. You reap what you sow If you can’t see how stupid and unpleasant this is when posted in relation to civilians that had absolutely nothing to do with the actions of Hamas, I’m not sure there’s any help for you ok what about the Israeli civilians you have forgotten about ? They had nothing to do with Hamas yet some ended up beheaded and being paraded dead in front of Hamas Palestinians. Those 1400 did nothing wrong. Let's face it your precious Palestinians and their cohorts are nothing but a monumental pain in the arse for the rest of the civilised world . |
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Post by jamo on Nov 6, 2023 21:12:12 GMT 1
It seems the vast amount on here have forgotten the 1400 Israelis and foreign nationals massacred in Israel last month. Yet all I hear is poor Palestine. You reap what you sow If you can’t see how stupid and unpleasant this is when posted in relation to civilians that had absolutely nothing to do with the actions of Hamas, I’m not sure there’s any help for you Unpleasant is certainly descriptive enough. Abhorrent could be equally so. I find it quite staggering the disconnect that the resident warmongers continue to proffer as a reason for justifying mass murder |
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Post by The Clash 1966 on Nov 6, 2023 21:18:58 GMT 1
If you can’t see how stupid and unpleasant this is when posted in relation to civilians that had absolutely nothing to do with the actions of Hamas, I’m not sure there’s any help for you Unpleasant is certainly descriptive enough. Abhorrent could be equally so. I find it quite staggering the disconnect that the resident warmongers continue to proffer as a reason for justifying mass murder Again no mention of the 1400, let's see what carnage the Pro Palestinians cause this weekend in The UK. They are the ones advocating mass murder of Israelis. I really do give up. |
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Post by dachshund on Nov 6, 2023 21:24:28 GMT 1
Obviously the murder of innocent Israelis is a very bad thing. Am I to preface everything I say with this, forever, before I’m allowed in o object to the murder of children?
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Post by armchairfan on Nov 6, 2023 21:37:46 GMT 1
Obviously the murder of innocent Israelis is a very bad thing. Am I to preface everything I say with this, forever, before I’m allowed in o object to the murder of children? "A very bad thing"..... |
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 7, 2023 9:25:47 GMT 1
It seems the vast amount on here have forgotten the 1400 Israelis and foreign nationals massacred in Israel last month. Yet all I hear is poor Palestine. Poor Palestine is right though. I won't comment on what we see on here but I do think however, there is something to be said about the October 7th attacks being forgotten (and the fact that Hamas have made it clear that given the opportunity they would repeat them). When you look to the many clips of people going around tearing down posters of those who were kidnapped by Hamas on October 7th for example, why would they do that? I think they do so because they are a reminder that Israel, Israelis and others are also victims in this conflict and that for many is something they are simply unable or unwilling to accept. It goes against their ideology and it goes against the narrative. Both of which they do not wish to see challenged with the truth that things are not as simple as they would have you believe (and therefore the attacks that instigated this latest round of violence are forgotten and any reminder must be removed from view). No idea if people have taken time out to view the footage from October 7th, there is plenty of it available online to view (although of course, some of it is very graphic) but it shows the indiscriminate nature and brutality of the attacks and perhaps it will help explain why Israel may not wish to have Hamas remain on its doorstep ready for a repeat whenever the chance arises. This was posted a short time ago and worth a read, this is from someone caught up in the attacks. There are two sides to this, victims on both, we shouldn't forget that. |
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Post by rickyspanish on Nov 7, 2023 10:04:28 GMT 1
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Post by SeanBroseley on Nov 7, 2023 19:41:01 GMT 1
I very much doubt that Hamas didn't harm any civilians. But we know that lies has been told about what has happened and these have come from Israeli and IDF sources. I suspect that different groups of Hamas guerrillas approached their operation in different ways. Just because I've seen Hamas guerrillas escorting Israeli civilians out of a crossfire doesn't mean that all the operation was executed in that way.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 8, 2023 9:27:53 GMT 1
And if its not Hamas in denial you have others looking to downplay the attacks... Pink Floyd’s Roger Waters says Hamas massacre ‘thrown out of all proportion’
...and he'll not be alone in this despite the video evidence, despite the first hand accounts of those who were on the scene to view the aftermath and those who were asked to collect and identify the bodies. Yeah, I'm unsure about the some of things we have heard. But perhaps more so about how things may have happened rather than if they did. What has been reported about some of the causalities, for example. But then I suspect a modern weapon at very close range will do an incredible amount of damage. And there is a clip of a Palestinian repeatedly hitting a severely injured man on the ground around the neck and head with what appears to be a gardening tool. So... Anyhow, I get the impression here that Waters is suggesting that because it might not be as bad as is made out its wasn't that bad. It was. |
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Post by The Clash 1966 on Nov 8, 2023 11:39:06 GMT 1
And if its not Hamas in denial you have others looking to downplay the attacks... Pink Floyd’s Roger Waters says Hamas massacre ‘thrown out of all proportion’
...and he'll not be alone in this despite the video evidence, despite the first hand accounts of those who were on the scene to view the aftermath and those who were asked to collect and identify the bodies. Yeah, I'm unsure about the some of things we have heard. But perhaps more so about how things may have happened rather than if they did. What has been reported about some of the causalities, for example. But then I suspect a modern weapon at very close range will do an incredible amount of damage. And there is a clip of a Palestinian repeatedly hitting a severely injured man on the ground around the neck and head with what appears to be a gardening tool. So... Anyhow, I get the impression here that Waters is suggesting that because it might not be as bad as is made out its wasn't that bad. It was. He has a reputation of being a bit of a prat in music circles. Bless him though he is around 80.So that's me not listening to my 50th anniversary super duper edition of Dark Side anymore. That'll show him. |
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