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Post by servernaside on Nov 8, 2023 17:22:33 GMT 1
And if its not Hamas in denial you have others looking to downplay the attacks... Pink Floyd’s Roger Waters says Hamas massacre ‘thrown out of all proportion’
...and he'll not be alone in this despite the video evidence, despite the first hand accounts of those who were on the scene to view the aftermath and those who were asked to collect and identify the bodies. Yeah, I'm unsure about the some of things we have heard. But perhaps more so about how things may have happened rather than if they did. What has been reported about some of the causalities, for example. But then I suspect a modern weapon at very close range will do an incredible amount of damage. And there is a clip of a Palestinian repeatedly hitting a severely injured man on the ground around the neck and head with what appears to be a gardening tool. So... Anyhow, I get the impression here that Waters is suggesting that because it might not be as bad as is made out its wasn't that bad. It was. He has a reputation of being a bit of a prat in music circles. Bless him though he is around 80, that's me not listening to my 50th anniversary super duper edition of Dark Side anymore. That'll show him. Sadly, Mr Waters' dementia kicked in early.
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Post by staffordshrew on Nov 9, 2023 20:36:37 GMT 1
He has a reputation of being a bit of a prat in music circles. Bless him though he is around 80, that's me not listening to my 50th anniversary super duper edition of Dark Side anymore. That'll show him. Sadly, Mr Waters' dementia kicked in early. Me, I just go with the music. They can all keep their political views to themselves.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Nov 9, 2023 22:34:52 GMT 1
Logically if something isn't as bad as it was made out to be then it can't be as bad as it was made out to be. It will take time to see what happened on 7th October as Israel buried some victims without them being first identified.
Interesting to note the footage today from the Israeli helicopter gunships of them blowing festival-goers to kingdom come.
However, none of this justifies the present genocide and ethnic cleansing.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 10, 2023 10:51:32 GMT 1
We talk about people forgetting the October 7th attacks and yet for some...
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Post by servernaside on Nov 10, 2023 12:17:30 GMT 1
Logically if something isn't as bad as it was made out to be then it can't be as bad as it was made out to be. It will take time to see what happened on 7th October as Israel buried some victims without them being first identified. Interesting to note the footage today from the Israeli helicopter gunships of them blowing festival-goers to kingdom come. However, none of this justifies the present genocide and ethnic cleansing. A very unwise choice of terms....especially in this context with Jewish people involved in this conflict who, over a couple of thousand years, know a thing or two about genocide and ethnic cleansing. The operations in Gaza can in no way be described in the terms you have used. While there has undoubtedly been collateral damage and civilian deaths and injuries while engaging Hamas, to describe these activities in the terms you have used is ridiculous
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Post by servernaside on Nov 10, 2023 12:21:27 GMT 1
I have responded a couple of times on this thread, but frankly this thread belongs on th Political Board, not here.
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Post by staffordshrew on Nov 10, 2023 13:38:21 GMT 1
Whatever the terminology, it doesn't look a very wise move for Israel to be doing wha they are doing given who their near neighbours are.
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Post by Dancin on Nov 10, 2023 14:04:22 GMT 1
Whatever the terminology, it doesn't look a very wise move for Israel to be doing wha they are doing given who their near neighbours are. I think if their near neighbours were going to do something they would of by now. If the did they know the might of the US Navy, Airforce and Marines would be very quickly deployed.
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Post by staffordshrew on Nov 10, 2023 14:13:09 GMT 1
Whatever the terminology, it doesn't look a very wise move for Israel to be doing wha they are doing given who their near neighbours are. I think if their near neighbours were going to do something they would of by now. If the did they know the might of the US Navy, Airforce and Marines would be very quickly deployed. People, including terrorst cells and suicide bombers, have long mmories. Upset your own domestic neighbour and things are never quite the same, peaceful, for example.
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Post by venceremos on Nov 10, 2023 14:20:36 GMT 1
Whatever the terminology, it doesn't look a very wise move for Israel to be doing wha they are doing given who their near neighbours are. I think if their near neighbours were going to do something they would of by now. If the did they know the might of the US Navy, Airforce and Marines would be very quickly deployed. Sure, like the "successes" enjoyed in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan ..... There's no winning a war in the Middle East, just endless death and suffering for all sides. Haven't we learned that yet? The primary cause of WW2 in Europe and North Africa was the perceived injustice of the peace settlement after WW1. Nazism wasn't born out of thin air. A humiliated Germany was fertile ground for a populist revolution against it. Bitterness lives on through generations. What's happening now in Gaza and the West Bank will be adding massively to the bitterness that was already there. There will surely be a price to be paid in people's lives long after the bombing stops in Gaza, and not only in the Middle East.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Nov 10, 2023 14:26:05 GMT 1
The operations in Gaza by the IDF can very much be described in the terms I have used. And I reaffirm that. The modern Israeli State is not the biblical state of 2,000 years ago. Jews around the world are not responsible for what the Israeli military is doing.
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Post by venceremos on Nov 10, 2023 14:47:12 GMT 1
Netanyahu's government is not a "nice" western-style government, even if it was democratically elected. There are extremist elements within it to which the West turns a blind eye. The catastrophic failure of the government and military on 7 October was a humiliation for both, and Netanyahu personally, but the desire for revenge is not a strategy.
It's neither antisemitic nor anti-Israeli to say that.
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Post by staffordshrew on Nov 10, 2023 18:08:47 GMT 1
Netanyahu's government is not a "nice" western-style government, even if it was democratically elected. There are extremist elements within it to which the West turns a blind eye. The catastrophic failure of the government and military on 7 October was a humiliation for both, and Netanyahu personally, but the desire for revenge is not a strategy. It's neither antisemitic nor anti-Israeli to say that. Just like the ordinary people of Gaza suffering now, it has been and will be the ordinary people of Israel that suffer. If Israel and friends defence holds up in future that may just be to live in fear of what might happen, but that's not a nice way to live.
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Post by servernaside on Nov 11, 2023 11:28:24 GMT 1
Interesting isn't it that despite all the hand-wringing by the liberal left and other Hamas apologists both in this country and around the world about the situation in Gaza, not a single neighbouring state has offered any kind of sanctuary to the people of Gaza.
One would have thought that their co-religionists and fellow Arabs would have been falling over themselves to help.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Nov 11, 2023 11:33:28 GMT 1
Money talks. actually it swears. Even IDF genocide apologists should understand that.
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Post by Worthingshrew on Nov 11, 2023 12:07:08 GMT 1
Interesting isn't it that despite all the hand-wringing by the liberal left and other Hamas apologists both in this country and around the world about the situation in Gaza, not a single neighbouring state has offered any kind of sanctuary to the people of Gaza. One would have thought that their co-religionists and fellow Arabs would have been falling over themselves to help. Yes, particularly with the vast wealth and space they have.
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Post by DiglisShrew on Nov 11, 2023 13:09:15 GMT 1
Interesting isn't it that despite all the hand-wringing by the liberal left and other Hamas apologists both in this country and around the world about the situation in Gaza, not a single neighbouring state has offered any kind of sanctuary to the people of Gaza. One would have thought that their co-religionists and fellow Arabs would have been falling over themselves to help. Perhaps they don’t wish to be seen to be assisting Israel in its clearance of Gaza 🤔
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Post by servernaside on Nov 11, 2023 13:39:07 GMT 1
Interesting isn't it that despite all the hand-wringing by the liberal left and other Hamas apologists both in this country and around the world about the situation in Gaza, not a single neighbouring state has offered any kind of sanctuary to the people of Gaza. One would have thought that their co-religionists and fellow Arabs would have been falling over themselves to help. Perhaps they don’t wish to be seen to be assisting Israel in its clearance of Gaza 🤔 Gaza has never been 'cleared' since the creation of Israel.
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Post by DiglisShrew on Nov 11, 2023 13:47:08 GMT 1
Perhaps they don’t wish to be seen to be assisting Israel in its clearance of Gaza 🤔 Gaza has never been 'cleared' since the creation of Israel. Not yet !! 🙄
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Post by venceremos on Nov 11, 2023 15:16:07 GMT 1
Interesting isn't it that despite all the hand-wringing by the liberal left and other Hamas apologists both in this country and around the world about the situation in Gaza, not a single neighbouring state has offered any kind of sanctuary to the people of Gaza. One would have thought that their co-religionists and fellow Arabs would have been falling over themselves to help. If it’s hand-wringing, liberal leftie stuff to prefer that tens of thousands of children and civilians aren’t killed, maimed or traumatised, deprived of food, water and medicine, and forced to abandon their homes, if not already destroyed, carrying whatever they can - count me in. You’re on the side of death and destruction? Your choice. As for your “interesting” point, do you know how many Palestinian refugees there are in Jordan, Lebanon and other Arab countries? When refugees from Syria, Libya and other war-ravaged countries sought sanctuary in Europe, some keyboard strategists criticised them for not staying and fighting. Are you suggesting Palestinians should abandon their homeland? If Gaza is ‘cleared’ of its people, the chances of a Palestinian state probably disappear with them.
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Nov 11, 2023 16:04:16 GMT 1
Interesting isn't it that despite all the hand-wringing by the liberal left and other Hamas apologists both in this country and around the world about the situation in Gaza, not a single neighbouring state has offered any kind of sanctuary to the people of Gaza. One would have thought that their co-religionists and fellow Arabs would have been falling over themselves to help. Jordan has over 2 million Palestinian refugees and 1.5 million from Syria. This in a country with a population of 11 million.
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Drew
Midland League Division One
Posts: 416
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Post by Drew on Nov 11, 2023 18:23:06 GMT 1
I think if their near neighbours were going to do something they would of by now. If the did they know the might of the US Navy, Airforce and Marines would be very quickly deployed. Sure, like the "successes" enjoyed in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan ..... There's no winning a war in the Middle East, just endless death and suffering for all sides. Haven't we learned that yet? The primary cause of WW2 in Europe and North Africa was the perceived injustice of the peace settlement after WW1. Nazism wasn't born out of thin air. A humiliated Germany was fertile ground for a populist revolution against it. Bitterness lives on through generations. What's happening now in Gaza and the West Bank will be adding massively to the bitterness that was already there. There will surely be a price to be paid in people's lives long after the bombing stops in Gaza, and not only in the Middle East. So what do you actually expect Israel should do after the slaughter of 1200 of its citizens and the taking of 200+ hostages? Perhaps a strongly worded letter to the Hamas terrorists would do the trick?
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Post by SeanBroseley on Nov 11, 2023 20:01:55 GMT 1
Simply operate within the rules of war. Two wrongs don't make a right. But, of course, Israel is not interested in the release of hostages but, rather, the infliction of the maximum damage and retribution on the whole of the population of Gaza.
The taking of hostages is against those rules. Anything else that Netanyanu alleged on 11th October 2023 that happened on 7th October has not been corroborated.
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Post by staffordshrew on Nov 11, 2023 20:19:29 GMT 1
Sure, like the "successes" enjoyed in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan ..... There's no winning a war in the Middle East, just endless death and suffering for all sides. Haven't we learned that yet? The primary cause of WW2 in Europe and North Africa was the perceived injustice of the peace settlement after WW1. Nazism wasn't born out of thin air. A humiliated Germany was fertile ground for a populist revolution against it. Bitterness lives on through generations. What's happening now in Gaza and the West Bank will be adding massively to the bitterness that was already there. There will surely be a price to be paid in people's lives long after the bombing stops in Gaza, and not only in the Middle East. So what do you actually expect Israel should do after the slaughter of 1200 of its citizens and the taking of 200+ hostages? Perhaps a strongly worded letter to the Hamas terrorists would do the trick? Israel have their own "SAS", it's a major fail if they can't pick off the terrorists. Or is expecting Palestinions to clear off to the south so that reservist forces can flatten your home, kill your relatives and bomb and starve the general population just some sort of macabre revenge?
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Post by servernaside on Nov 12, 2023 16:20:51 GMT 1
UNWRA estimates that there are approximately 5 million people who are recognised as Palestinian refugees. These are distributed across a number of countries and areas which border Israel, chiefly Jordan, Lebanon, Syria the West Bank, Gaza and to a smaller extent Egypt. Many of these 5 million are not actually refugees themselves, but the descendants of refugees who fled initially in 1948 and then again in 1967. A typical refugee camp will therefore be populated by second, third, fourth and fifth generations, hardly any of whom will have any recollection of living in 'Palestine'.
Israel has existed now for almost 100 years. The problem will not go away and neither, in my opinion is there any future in a so-called 'Two-State' solution where both sides claim exclusive right over the area. It is, and will remain an intractable problem and surely it's time to move on.
Arab (and predominantly muslim) nations in the Middle East and north Africa cover a land area in excess of 13 million square miles with a population density of 29 people per square km. Israel occupies a tiny slice of the Middle East with a total land area of 22,145 square kms. About 0.18% of the total land area with a population density of 424 per square kilometre.
The Palestinians for sure have been dealt a bad hand by history, but it's time for the Arab nations to step up to the plate, stop using the Palestinians as a political tool and absorb this relatively small number of people across their nations, give them the citizenship rights etc to which they have hitherto largely been denied. and dismantle the refugee camps which have become a breeding ground for radical Islamism and violence.
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Post by neilsalop on Nov 12, 2023 19:11:49 GMT 1
UNWRA estimates that there are approximately 5 million people who are recognised as Palestinian refugees. These are distributed across a number of countries and areas which border Israel, chiefly Jordan, Lebanon, Syria the West Bank, Gaza and to a smaller extent Egypt. Many of these 5 million are not actually refugees themselves, but the descendants of refugees who fled initially in 1948 and then again in 1967. A typical refugee camp will therefore be populated by second, third, fourth and fifth generations, hardly any of whom will have any recollection of living in 'Palestine'. Israel has existed now for almost 100 years. The problem will not go away and neither, in my opinion is there any future in a so-called 'Two-State' solution where both sides claim exclusive right over the area. It is, and will remain an intractable problem and surely it's time to move on. Arab (and predominantly muslim) nations in the Middle East and north Africa cover a land area in excess of 13 million square miles with a population density of 29 people per square km. Israel occupies a tiny slice of the Middle East with a total land area of 22,145 square kms. About 0.18% of the total land area with a population density of 424 per square kilometre. The Palestinians for sure have been dealt a bad hand by history, but it's time for the Arab nations to step up to the plate, stop using the Palestinians as a political tool and absorb this relatively small number of people across their nations, give them the citizenship rights etc to which they have hitherto largely been denied. and dismantle the refugee camps which have become a breeding ground for radical Islamism and violence. I'm going to go through this one point at a time if you don't mind.
You are correct that many people that claim to be Palestinian have never even set foot in their homeland. What you fail to consider is that Palestine is their homeland, their families had lived there for generations until the UK, US and France decided that their land was no longer theirs and that it would now become a Jewish homeland instead. Until 1948 Jews, Palestinians and Christians had lived peacefully side by side. These days Christian churches in Israel are regularly daubed in obscene graffiti or vandalised and members of the clergy are often assaulted or spat on and the authorities almost always ignore complaints. All those Palestinians in all those refugee camps throughout the region have no legal right to ever enter Israel, but if I were to become Jewish I would have the legal right to live there.
As I stated up thread the Two State Solution is dead in the water. How can Palestine become a state when Israeli settlers have literally carved up the West Bank and isolated the Palestinian communities into small (and shrinking) enclaves?
You seem to claiming that Israel is full and could never be able to accept all the Palestinian refugees back. You point out that Israel has a population density of 424 people per square kilometre. What you fail to point out is that England has around 434, while Gaza has around 8,000.
Palestine has been dealt a s***ty hand, on that we can agree, but why should the rest of the world just accept that? Most of the world was appalled when Putin invaded Ukraine or when Serbia committed war crimes and engaged in ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, but when Israel does it everyone turns a blind eye.
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Post by vladimir on Nov 12, 2023 22:06:05 GMT 1
UNWRA estimates that there are approximately 5 million people who are recognised as Palestinian refugees. These are distributed across a number of countries and areas which border Israel, chiefly Jordan, Lebanon, Syria the West Bank, Gaza and to a smaller extent Egypt. Many of these 5 million are not actually refugees themselves, but the descendants of refugees who fled initially in 1948 and then again in 1967. A typical refugee camp will therefore be populated by second, third, fourth and fifth generations, hardly any of whom will have any recollection of living in 'Palestine'. Israel has existed now for almost 100 years. The problem will not go away and neither, in my opinion is there any future in a so-called 'Two-State' solution where both sides claim exclusive right over the area. It is, and will remain an intractable problem and surely it's time to move on. Arab (and predominantly muslim) nations in the Middle East and north Africa cover a land area in excess of 13 million square miles with a population density of 29 people per square km. Israel occupies a tiny slice of the Middle East with a total land area of 22,145 square kms. About 0.18% of the total land area with a population density of 424 per square kilometre. The Palestinians for sure have been dealt a bad hand by history, but it's time for the Arab nations to step up to the plate, stop using the Palestinians as a political tool and absorb this relatively small number of people across their nations, give them the citizenship rights etc to which they have hitherto largely been denied. and dismantle the refugee camps which have become a breeding ground for radical Islamism and violence. I look forward to the UK openly welcoming it's fellow Christians from Eastern Europe with no prejeduice or demonisation.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Nov 12, 2023 23:20:03 GMT 1
Noteworthy that the SAS are operating with the IDF.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 13, 2023 8:40:19 GMT 1
Arab (and predominantly muslim) nations in the Middle East and north Africa cover a land area in excess of 13 million square miles with a population density of 29 people per square km. Israel occupies a tiny slice of the Middle East with a total land area of 22,145 square kms. About 0.18% of the total land area with a population density of 424 per square kilometre. I get the argument around the right to return, that was their home and I fully understand why they would want to return (although easier said than done now of course). But then you do have to ask why those around Israel won't even afford them any land, any nation (lets not kid ourselves, given the chance they would wipe Israel off the map and all that would entail) when you look to this (and you consider that this is their ancestral land)...
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Post by neilsalop on Nov 13, 2023 9:32:20 GMT 1
Arab (and predominantly muslim) nations in the Middle East and north Africa cover a land area in excess of 13 million square miles with a population density of 29 people per square km. Israel occupies a tiny slice of the Middle East with a total land area of 22,145 square kms. About 0.18% of the total land area with a population density of 424 per square kilometre. I get the argument around the right to return, that was their home and I fully understand why they would want to return (although easier said than done now of course). But then you do have to ask why those around Israel won't even afford them any land, any nation (lets not kid ourselves, given the chance they would wipe Israel off the map and all that would entail) when you look to this (and you consider that this is their ancestral land)... Imagine if England and Wales had been carved up and huge swathes of it handed over to one particular group of people after WW2 and then that group had forced your family off their lands and then eventually forced them into a couple of enclaves in west Wales and the area east of London or into exile in Scotland and Ireland. Would you not be trying everything in your power to be allowed back? How far would you go to win that freedom to return? Would you fight for that right? I know I would. Also would you be expecting the likes of France, Germany, Belgium or Spain to just hand out passports for the children of those refugees 70 years on?
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