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Post by The Clash 1966 on Apr 5, 2024 10:13:23 GMT 1
Lighten up Neil, I've no animosity towards you.
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Post by venceremos on Apr 5, 2024 14:19:46 GMT 1
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68729302When pretty much every top legal expert in the country is calling for the government to stop selling weapons to Israel it makes you wonder why the government won't publish the legal advice that they have received. What don't they want us to know? Still no response from those on here that support the Israeli military after the killing of 7 aid workers in Gaza. Funny that. Maybe they've reconsidered , but I very much doubt it or maybe they're trying to find a way to spin it so that Hamas get the blame for Israel bombing them. i still support Israel What does that actually mean? You support Netanyahu and his government in everything they do? An awful lot of Israelis and members of the Jewish diaspora don't. I'm sure they support Israel too, if not in the same way.
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Post by venceremos on Apr 5, 2024 14:40:40 GMT 1
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68729302When pretty much every top legal expert in the country is calling for the government to stop selling weapons to Israel it makes you wonder why the government won't publish the legal advice that they have received. What don't they want us to know? Still no response from those on here that support the Israeli military after the killing of 7 aid workers in Gaza. Funny that. Maybe they've reconsidered , but I very much doubt it or maybe they're trying to find a way to spin it so that Hamas get the blame for Israel bombing them. All war is awful and innocent people almost always get caught up in it. Whether they're aid workers or civilians from Gaza is immaterial to the cause and effect. They're in a war zone because the democratically elected government of a sovereign nation decided to eliminate a terrorist organisation that murdered over a thousand of it's citizens and hundreds of hostages. Is that goal worth the cost? That's the issue that's the crux of it. In the early days it looked like it and the longer it goes on and the harder it gets the less defensible that position is because the just war theory has to allow for an outcome and doesn't allow you to kill however many people you want to achieve the goal. But it would be really hypocritical to say it needs to stop because some westerners got caught up in it. This pro-Netanyahu spiel is looking threadbare. What's the relevance of Israel having a democratically elected government? Was the killing of 33,000+ Palestinians in the winning party's manifesto? The democratically elected government of the US has fought plenty of foreign wars that few would now claim to have been "just". And no democratically elected government has a mandate to do whatever it likes. There's a lot of opposition to Netanyahu in Israel and in the international Jewish community. Many hold him responsible for the appalling security breach that enabled the horrific events of October 7th, and for his government's now 6 months long inability of Israel to obtain the release of the hostages. Is anyone only now saying the war needs to stop because of the killing of 7 western aid workers (it's appallingly disrespectful to dismiss them as "some westerners who got caught up in it")? I don't hear that. People wanting Israel to stop killing people have been calling for that for a long time. What you're describing is the embarrassment of western leaders supplying weaponry to a state that's using its weapons to kill the countrymen of those leaders. I think the label of hypocrisy can more accurately be pinned on Biden, Sunak and those western leaders no longer able to defend the indefensible.
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 5, 2024 14:56:56 GMT 1
Apparently 69% of Israel's armaments are supplied by the US. I would divert them to Ukraine until Israel holds a General Election to see what the will of their people is to this war.
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Post by venceremos on Apr 5, 2024 15:05:48 GMT 1
Apparently 69% of Israel's armaments are supplied by the US. I would divert them to Ukraine until Israel holds a General Election to see what the will of their people is to this war. It was reported this week that Israel has used AI to identify 33,000 Palestinians who they claim have links with Hamas. There's no verification of those links and they acknowledge that most of them are unimportant, but they're still going after them all. According to sources within their own intelligence services, it's acceptable to kill 20 innocent civilians if it means killing just one of these unimportant targets. Is this the moral high ground the Netanyahu apologists still claim to occupy? Do they seriously believe Israel will ever know peace after this?
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Post by Worthingshrew on Apr 5, 2024 22:31:24 GMT 1
Four days after the appalling attack on the aid convoy, the BBC are still giving blanket coverage to the story, repeating the issues and questions at every opportunity.
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Post by Valerioch on Apr 6, 2024 12:12:03 GMT 1
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 6, 2024 12:37:32 GMT 1
Fortunately these days he's sidelined to writing a load of waffle in the Daily Mail. I'll go with whatever the current Foreign Secretary thinks is best, no doubt inextricably linked to what the US do.
I doubt either government want to halt the supply of arms, they just want to pressure Israel into "fighting fair" in their war agaist the terrorists.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Apr 6, 2024 13:09:45 GMT 1
We hardly supply any arms to Israel.
It's all posturing and "me too" tokenism of who can be the most outraged.
We might produce a widget that goes in an F-35 or the paint for an Apache but it won't make the slightest difference to their supply of arms.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Apr 6, 2024 13:13:28 GMT 1
Four days after the appalling attack on the aid convoy, the BBC are still giving blanket coverage to the story, repeating the issues and questions at every opportunity. And yet no one hardly ever mentions the civilians in Sudan. 8.5 million refugees. 50,000 killed or injured. Funny that? I'd expect the anti war coalitions to be all over that. Out on the streets of London every weekend demanding peace. The BBC running wall to wall commentary. Especially as it's not a war sparked by one of the worst terrorist attacks in history.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 6, 2024 13:25:10 GMT 1
Four days after the appalling attack on the aid convoy, the BBC are still giving blanket coverage to the story, repeating the issues and questions at every opportunity. And yet no one hardly ever mentions the civilians in Sudan. 8.5 million refugees. 50,000 killed or injured. Funny that? I'd expect the anti war coalitions to be all over that. Out on the streets of London every weekend demanding peace. The BBC running wall to wall commentary. Especially as it's not a war sparked by one of the worst terrorist attacks in history. On the same topic, you have a good few on social media sharing images from Syria believing and claiming them to be from Gaza. When they are challenged why they did not care enough to post the images back in 2021 when they were actually taken they have no answer. I do think there is something in "no Jews, no news" that rings true.
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 6, 2024 13:57:22 GMT 1
And yet no one hardly ever mentions the civilians in Sudan. 8.5 million refugees. 50,000 killed or injured. Funny that? I'd expect the anti war coalitions to be all over that. Out on the streets of London every weekend demanding peace. The BBC running wall to wall commentary. Especially as it's not a war sparked by one of the worst terrorist attacks in history. On the same topic, you have a good few on social media sharing images from Syria believing and claiming them to be from Gaza. When they are challenged why they did not care enough to post the images back in 2021 when they were actually taken they have no answer. I do think there is something in "no Jews, no news" that rings true. I think it's more to do with the image of Israel being the West's "friend" in that area. If they want the West's full support they need abide by the West's values, good or bad.
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 6, 2024 16:45:17 GMT 1
Four days after the appalling attack on the aid convoy, the BBC are still giving blanket coverage to the story, repeating the issues and questions at every opportunity. And yet no one hardly ever mentions the civilians in Sudan. 8.5 million refugees. 50,000 killed or injured. Funny that? I'd expect the anti war coalitions to be all over that. Out on the streets of London every weekend demanding peace. The BBC running wall to wall commentary. Especially as it's not a war sparked by one of the worst terrorist attacks in history. I see the Israeli government spokesman is back again. For your information I am against all wars. They are futile exercises in the main and in almost every case it is poor people that suffer most. The war in Sudan has been going on for almost a year and it has caused less than 50% of the casualties that Israel has inflicted on the mostly innocent population of Gaza in less than half that time. I noticed you gave the figures for killed and injured to try to make it sound as though it was worse over there. Good effort, if only we didn't have access to the world wide web you might have got away with it. Also as far as I'm aware there are no western governments handing out weapons like confectionery to either of the protagonists, so there is that. Also worth noting that the UK and USA have actually imposed sanctions on some of the players involved, but have done no such thing against Israel, even going as far as to veto UN sanctions on Israel.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Apr 6, 2024 17:07:11 GMT 1
And yet no one hardly ever mentions the civilians in Sudan. 8.5 million refugees. 50,000 killed or injured. Funny that? I'd expect the anti war coalitions to be all over that. Out on the streets of London every weekend demanding peace. The BBC running wall to wall commentary. Especially as it's not a war sparked by one of the worst terrorist attacks in history. I see the Israeli government spokesman is back again. For your information I am against all wars. They are futile exercises in the main and in almost every case it is poor people that suffer most. The war in Sudan has been going on for almost a year and it has caused less than 50% of the casualties that Israel has inflicted on the mostly innocent population of Gaza in less than half that time. I noticed you gave the figures for killed and injured to try to make it sound as though it was worse over there. Good effort, if only we didn't have access to the world wide web you might have got away with it. Also as far as I'm aware there are no western governments handing out weapons like confectionery to either of the protagonists, so there is that. Also worth noting that the UK and USA have actually imposed sanctions on some of the players involved, but have done no such thing against Israel, even going as far as to veto UN sanctions on Israel. Of course an urban war will have higher casualties. That's not the point. The point is no one cares about Sudan. I would like a world with no war. And no terrorism. Yet again you resort to name calling and straw man arguments, which is a touch tedious to be honest. But if that's all you've got then at least I know the strength of argument has won, so in that sense it's a compliment.
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 6, 2024 17:10:28 GMT 1
I see the Israeli government spokesman is back again. For your information I am against all wars. They are futile exercises in the main and in almost every case it is poor people that suffer most. The war in Sudan has been going on for almost a year and it has caused less than 50% of the casualties that Israel has inflicted on the mostly innocent population of Gaza in less than half that time. I noticed you gave the figures for killed and injured to try to make it sound as though it was worse over there. Good effort, if only we didn't have access to the world wide web you might have got away with it. Also as far as I'm aware there are no western governments handing out weapons like confectionery to either of the protagonists, so there is that. Also worth noting that the UK and USA have actually imposed sanctions on some of the players involved, but have done no such thing against Israel, even going as far as to veto UN sanctions on Israel. Of course an urban war will have higher casualties. That's not the point. The point is no one cares about Sudan. I would like a world with no war. And no terrorism. Yet again you resort to name calling and straw man arguments, which is a touch tedious to be honest. But if that's all you've got then at least I know the strength of argument has won, so in that sense it's a compliment. I'm the one coming out with straw man arguments? That's a bit rich when you're coming on here saying that no one cares about Sudan. Did you Google it today to try to make a point or has it been troubling you for months?
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Apr 6, 2024 17:16:38 GMT 1
Of course an urban war will have higher casualties. That's not the point. The point is no one cares about Sudan. I would like a world with no war. And no terrorism. Yet again you resort to name calling and straw man arguments, which is a touch tedious to be honest. But if that's all you've got then at least I know the strength of argument has won, so in that sense it's a compliment. I'm the one coming out with straw man arguments? That's a bit rich when you're coming on here saying that no one cares about Sudan. Did you Google it today to try to make a point or has it been troubling you for months? No one cares about Sudan. I don't. You don't. Not really. Sure, I feel sad when you hear about it and wish it was different but it makes no difference to my every day life and it doesn't to the vast majority of people. The same with Gaza. But that's now a hill to die on. Because what's happening is so wrong. That's what you refuse to address. Why does Gaza matter so much? It's not about peace. It's not about civilians. Is it? It's way more specific than that.
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 6, 2024 18:13:34 GMT 1
I'm the one coming out with straw man arguments? That's a bit rich when you're coming on here saying that no one cares about Sudan. Did you Google it today to try to make a point or has it been troubling you for months? No one cares about Sudan. I don't. You don't. Not really. Sure, I feel sad when you hear about it and wish it was different but it makes no difference to my every day life and it doesn't to the vast majority of people. The same with Gaza. But that's now a hill to die on. Because what's happening is so wrong. That's what you refuse to address. Why does Gaza matter so much? It's not about peace. It's not about civilians. Is it? It's way more specific than that. It's about an oppressed state that the West has close ties with now being the oppresser. A state that we all want to see living in peace with it's neighbours, but recognising that the ordinary people of neighbouring states cannot be starved and picked off by random bombing. Clearly Israseli excesses will come back to haunt them, they need to work with their Western allies to deal with their problems with US/UK help, rather than blundering in.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Apr 6, 2024 19:00:47 GMT 1
No one cares about Sudan. I don't. You don't. Not really. Sure, I feel sad when you hear about it and wish it was different but it makes no difference to my every day life and it doesn't to the vast majority of people. The same with Gaza. But that's now a hill to die on. Because what's happening is so wrong. That's what you refuse to address. Why does Gaza matter so much? It's not about peace. It's not about civilians. Is it? It's way more specific than that. It's about an oppressed state that the West has close ties with now being the oppresser. A state that we all want to see living in peace with it's neighbours, but recognising that the ordinary people of neighbouring states cannot be starved and picked off by random bombing. Clearly Israseli excesses will come back to haunt them, they need to work with their Western allies to deal with their problems with US/UK help, rather than blundering in. Thanks for actually answering the question! The government of Israel has a duty of care to it's population to keep it safe. Hamas is a direct and clear threat to that safety. Therefore the decision is made to eradicate Hamas. Hamas has hidden it's primary resources and capability within a densely populated civilian area, deliberately. What I don't understand is if the suffering of the civilian population of Gaza is the issue, then why are people not campaigning to stop Hamas using them as human shields? That's the actual issue isn't it? Israel doesn't want to attack a hospital. Hamas built a base under one. Who is to blame?
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 6, 2024 19:11:40 GMT 1
It's about an oppressed state that the West has close ties with now being the oppresser. A state that we all want to see living in peace with it's neighbours, but recognising that the ordinary people of neighbouring states cannot be starved and picked off by random bombing. Clearly Israseli excesses will come back to haunt them, they need to work with their Western allies to deal with their problems with US/UK help, rather than blundering in. Thanks for actually answering the question! The government of Israel has a duty of care to it's population to keep it safe. Hamas is a direct and clear threat to that safety. Therefore the decision is made to eradicate Hamas. Hamas has hidden it's primary resources and capability within a densely populated civilian area, deliberately. What I don't understand is if the suffering of the civilian population of Gaza is the issue, then why are people not campaigning to stop Hamas using them as human shields? That's the actual issue isn't it? Israel doesn't want to attack a hospital. Hamas built a base under one. Who is to blame? If I was leading Israel I would exhaust all opportunites with my Western allies to do the job by stealth, using all the information they could get. Much like picking off individuals in drone attacks as was done when Osama Bin Laden was taken out. Perhaps they did?
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Apr 6, 2024 19:21:50 GMT 1
Thanks for actually answering the question! The government of Israel has a duty of care to it's population to keep it safe. Hamas is a direct and clear threat to that safety. Therefore the decision is made to eradicate Hamas. Hamas has hidden it's primary resources and capability within a densely populated civilian area, deliberately. What I don't understand is if the suffering of the civilian population of Gaza is the issue, then why are people not campaigning to stop Hamas using them as human shields? That's the actual issue isn't it? Israel doesn't want to attack a hospital. Hamas built a base under one. Who is to blame? If I was leading Israel I would exhaust all opportunites with my Western allies to do the job by stealth, using all the information they could get. Much like picking off individuals in drone attacks as was done when Osama Bin Laden was taken out. Perhaps they did? I can't see the time for that while you've got 200+ hostages alive. Hostages buried deep in an urban environment amongst a civilian population. Human shields within human shields.
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 6, 2024 19:42:00 GMT 1
If I was leading Israel I would exhaust all opportunites with my Western allies to do the job by stealth, using all the information they could get. Much like picking off individuals in drone attacks as was done when Osama Bin Laden was taken out. Perhaps they did? I can't see the time for that while you've got 200+ hostages alive. Hostages buried deep in an urban environment amongst a civilian population. Human shields within human shields. Israel has one of the best funded, best equipped and most experienced intelligence services in the world. If they wanted to they could use that to pick off any of the 'on the ground' leaders and find and rescue many of the hostages without the need for upwards of 20 innocent civilians for every Hamas fighter to be killed. They've also had nearly 6 months of doing things that way and have only rescued a handful of hostages. Their indiscriminate bombing has probably killed more hostages than they have rescued. Good to know that you don't care about the civilian deaths in Sudan any more than you do about the civilians in Gaza. Funny though how you seem to care so deeply about the Israeli victims, who were equally innocent. I'm asking myself if it's a race, creed or colour issue. I would certainly hope it isn't. I'd run off to the mods to report me for that last comment if I was you.
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 6, 2024 19:56:32 GMT 1
What is the Israeli objective?
1. Bomb the hell out of them in the vain hope that will free the hostages.
2. Target the Hamas terrorists who committed the atrocity. If they had any sense they didn't hang about, they went to ground somewhere else in the middle east, leaving well paid minions to guard the hostages.
3. Destroy the Palestinian state.
Which one is your money on?
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Apr 6, 2024 20:07:46 GMT 1
I can't see the time for that while you've got 200+ hostages alive. Hostages buried deep in an urban environment amongst a civilian population. Human shields within human shields. Israel has one of the best funded, best equipped and most experienced intelligence services in the world. If they wanted to they could use that to pick off any of the 'on the ground' leaders and find and rescue many of the hostages without the need for upwards of 20 innocent civilians for every Hamas fighter to be killed. They've also had nearly 6 months of doing things that way and have only rescued a handful of hostages. Their indiscriminate bombing has probably killed more hostages than they have rescued. Good to know that you don't care about the civilian deaths in Sudan any more than you do about the civilians in Gaza. Funny though how you seem to care so deeply about the Israeli victims, who were equally innocent. I'm asking myself if it's a race, creed or colour issue. I would certainly hope it isn't. I'd run off to the mods to report me for that last comment if I was you. I'm merely pointing out the hypocrisy in your position. Inverting the race/colour/creed card at this point against me is hilarious obfuscation. (You can Google that as well). Accuse your enemy of that which you yourself are guilty of. That's what Goebbels did. I want Israel to stop killing and hurting civilians in Gaza. It's awful what's happening in Sudan. I hate war. But that's not enough for you. It never will be. No-one can match your faux outrage.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Apr 6, 2024 20:08:49 GMT 1
What is the Israeli objective? 1. Bomb the hell out of them in the vain hope that will free the hostages. 2. Target the Hamas terrorists who committed the atrocity. If they had any sense they didn't hang about, they went to ground somewhere else in the middle east, leaving well paid minions to guard the hostages. 3. Destroy the Palestinian state. Which one is your money on? Disable the Hamas war machine. As stated at the start.
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 6, 2024 21:11:55 GMT 1
Israel has one of the best funded, best equipped and most experienced intelligence services in the world. If they wanted to they could use that to pick off any of the 'on the ground' leaders and find and rescue many of the hostages without the need for upwards of 20 innocent civilians for every Hamas fighter to be killed. They've also had nearly 6 months of doing things that way and have only rescued a handful of hostages. Their indiscriminate bombing has probably killed more hostages than they have rescued. Good to know that you don't care about the civilian deaths in Sudan any more than you do about the civilians in Gaza. Funny though how you seem to care so deeply about the Israeli victims, who were equally innocent. I'm asking myself if it's a race, creed or colour issue. I would certainly hope it isn't. I'd run off to the mods to report me for that last comment if I was you. I'm merely pointing out the hypocrisy in your position. Inverting the race/colour/creed card at this point against me is hilarious obfuscation. (You can Google that as well). Accuse your enemy of that which you yourself are guilty of. That's what Goebbels did. I want Israel to stop killing and hurting civilians in Gaza. It's awful what's happening in Sudan. I hate war. But that's not enough for you. It never will be. No-one can match your faux outrage. Aw, turning on the crocodile tears doesn't work with me. You will not accept that Israel is in any way in the wrong and constantly blame Hamas for all the deaths in Gaza and even go as far as to blame the people of Gaza for not standing up to Hamas.
Are you accusing me of being in some way racist or even of being a Nazi? I am not the one trying to gaslight anyone here, I have been honest from my first post on this thread when I condemned Hamas for their attack on Israel, but I will not accept that Israel is blameless for that attack or for the retribution and war crimes being carried out against the people of Gaza.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Apr 6, 2024 21:14:48 GMT 1
Israel is not blameless for the Hamas attack?
Thanks. That settles it.
In other news I want Israel to stop fighting straight away. And for there to be peace in Gaza. For all innocents to be safe.
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Post by philrouge on Apr 6, 2024 22:46:15 GMT 1
I think a cease fire would be a great solution. Especially on here.
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 7, 2024 9:55:00 GMT 1
Israel is not blameless for the Hamas attack? Thanks. That settles it. In other news I want Israel to stop fighting straight away. And for there to be peace in Gaza. For all innocents to be safe. Israel is not 'blameless' because 'one of the best funded, best equipped and most experienced intelligence services in the world' didn't see it coming. Similar to the UK not being 'blameless' when our intelligence services didn't see the Argies invading the Falklands coming.
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 7, 2024 10:39:44 GMT 1
Israel is not blameless for the Hamas attack? Thanks. That settles it. In other news I want Israel to stop fighting straight away. And for there to be peace in Gaza. For all innocents to be safe. Israel has had 75 years to look for a sustainable way for both sides to live alongside each other, but have turned away from it at every opportunity. Do you really think Hamas or Hezbollah would have become a thing if all the people living in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank were all treated as equals? If that had been the case the people of the occupied territories would not have chosen the evil of Hamas over moderate and sane political choices. Israel is still killing people in the West Bank as well as Gaza. Every dead parent or child only leads to more hatred and more recruitment opportunities for Hamas . How is Israel going to destroy Hamas when they are in fact the biggest driver in future recruitment? It's a vicious circle and it needs both sides to work together to square it up. I can't see that happening in the near future, but killing innocent people, creating martyrs and breeding even more hatred isn't going to lead to more moderate people coming to the table, so the killing needs to stop, the aid needs to flow and the people of Gaza need to be given the money and equipment to rebuild their territory. Give them hope and the promise of peace and the people might just find a way to forgive and let bygones be bygones. It might take a good while, but surely that beats the alternative of more hatred, more terrorist attacks, more retaliation and ever more innocent lives being taken, by both sides.
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 7, 2024 10:53:39 GMT 1
Israel is not blameless for the Hamas attack? Thanks. That settles it. In other news I want Israel to stop fighting straight away. And for there to be peace in Gaza. For all innocents to be safe. Israel has had 75 years to look for a sustainable way for both sides to live alongside each other, but have turned away from it at every opportunity. Do you really think Hamas or Hezbollah would have become a thing if all the people living in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank were all treated as equals? If that had been the case the people of the occupied territories would not have chosen the evil of Hamas over moderate and sane political choices. Israel is still killing people in the West Bank as well as Gaza. Every dead parent or child only leads to more hatred and more recruitment opportunities for Hamas . How is Israel going to destroy Hamas when they are in fact the biggest driver in future recruitment? It's a vicious circle and it needs both sides to work together to square it up. I can't see that happening in the near future, but killing innocent people, creating martyrs and breeding even more hatred isn't going to lead to more moderate people coming to the table, so the killing needs to stop, the aid needs to flow and the people of Gaza need to be given the money and equipment to rebuild their territory. Give them hope and the promise of peace and the people might just find a way to forgive and let bygones be bygones. It might take a good while, but surely that beats the alternative of more hatred, more terrorist attacks, more retaliation and ever more innocent lives being taken, by both sides. Probably the best post in the entire thread.
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