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Post by neilsalop on Mar 31, 2024 19:44:47 GMT 1
www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/30/uk-government-lawyers-say-israel-is-breaking-international-law-claims-top-tory-in-leaked-recordingThe British government has received advice from its own lawyers stating that Israel has breached international humanitarian law in Gaza but has failed to make it public, according to a leaked recording obtained by the Observer. The comments, made by the Conservative chair of the House of Commons select committee on foreign affairs, Alicia Kearns, at a Tory fundraising event on 13 March are at odds with repeated ministerial denials and evasion on the issue. On Saturday night, Kearns, a former Foreign Office and Ministry of Defence official, who has repeatedly pressed ministers, including foreign secretary David Cameron, on the legal advice they have received, stood by her comments and called for the government to come clean. โI remain convinced the government has completed its updated assessment on whether Israel is demonstrating a commitment to international humanitarian law, and that it has concluded that Israel is not demonstrating this commitment, which is the legal determination it has to make,โ she said. โTransparency at this point is paramount, not least to uphold the international rules-based order.โ The revelation will place Lord Cameron and prime minister Rishi Sunak under intense pressure because any such legal advice would mean the UK had to cease all arms sales to Israel without delay. Legal experts said that not to do so would risk putting the UK in breach of international law itself, as it would be seen as aiding and abetting war crimes by a country it was exporting arms to. I'm not sure you can push against the MSM and quote the Guardian. It's literally written in Labour HQ. I get quite twitchy now when anyone even uses the expression MSM. It's called a free press and is a hallmark of an open democracy. The kind of people eroding trust in the mainstream media are Donald Trump and Russell Brand.I certainly don't believe everything I read in the media. I recognise it can be unduly influenced. But it's still a brilliant thing. *Sorry I just realised I quoted your previous post not the MSM one On this we can actually find some agreement, makes a change eh?
However I would add that the owners of certain brands of newspapers (sic) don't exactly help when they continually spout hateful rhetoric and thinly disguised racism.
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Post by tarporleyblue on Mar 31, 2024 22:26:46 GMT 1
You've answered your own question in the final paragraph. The political sub board was created for that very reason. As mentioned previously, if the consensus of the board is that this subject should also be moved to its own sub board then that can be arranged. At the end of the day this board belongs to one and all, the mods are just part of that number. How do you propose obtaining a consensus one way, or the other? There's no groundswell to move it as things stand so unless there is a clamour to do so it will remain put.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Apr 1, 2024 8:08:28 GMT 1
Front page top article on the BBC this morning BBC News - Israel: Benjamin Netanyahu protests put political divides back on show www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68705643But you won't find any of it in the mainstream media ๐ค
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 1, 2024 10:47:51 GMT 1
The kind of people eroding trust in the mainstream media are Donald Trump and Russell Brand. Have to disagree with that. I'd say those who are eroding trust in the legacy media (or the mainstream media if you prefer) is the media itself. I mean as you mentioned Trump; look to 2016, look to the claims of Russia interference, look to the claims of Russian collusion, look to the Steele Dossier, look to how some elements of the media reported only recently on his use of the word 'bloodbath' in relation to the US car industry and the wider US economy. As for Brand, I don't know a great deal about what he gets up to but I suspect he might be more of a symptom rather than the cause (as more and more people turn away from legacy media). Then you have "mostly peaceful" riots as parts of US cities are burnt to the ground, you have Hunter Biden's laptop and how that was reported, you have police shootings and how that is reported, there was that Kansas City Chiefs kid in face paint recently who got accused of all sorts. There are other examples but I think the best I can give (as to why it is the media itself that is eroding trust in the media) was the reporting around the Covington students in 2019. That should of been a warning and a lesson to those within the media, a watershed as it were. Yet that wasn't to be the case. I am not sure if you are aware of that incident and how it was reported but if not then I would urge you to look. And then we had Covid and the pandemic where the lab leak theory was reported and dismissed as a conspiracy, it was reported to be a "pandemic of the unvaccinated" and reported that if you got vaccinated the virus stopped at you. All lies. This is why more and more journalists themselves are now turning away from legacy media and turning to the likes of Substack, so they are not constrained by the political bias and ideological capture of legacy media (such as gender ideology and CRT, for example). Its why Bari Weiss left the New York Times, for example. It's why Suzanne Moore and Hadley Freeman decided they could no longer work for the Guardian. Perhaps those outside the media may play their part but for the most part its the media who are bringing that on themselves. All about opinions though of course...
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 2, 2024 7:54:30 GMT 1
The kind of people eroding trust in the mainstream media are Donald Trump and Russell Brand. Have to disagree with that. I'd say those who are eroding trust in the legacy media (or the mainstream media if you prefer) is the media itself. I mean as you mentioned Trump; look to 2016, look to the claims of Russia interference, look to the claims of Russian collusion, look to the Steele Dossier, look to how some elements of the media reported only recently on his use of the word 'bloodbath' in relation to the US car industry and the wider US economy. As for Brand, I don't know a great deal about what he gets up to but I suspect he might be more of a symptom rather than the cause (as more and more people turn away from legacy media). Then you have "mostly peaceful" riots as parts of US cities are burnt to the ground, you have Hunter Biden's laptop and how that was reported, you have police shootings and how that is reported, there was that Kansas City Chiefs kid in face paint recently who got accused of all sorts. There are other examples but I think the best I can give (as to why it is the media itself that is eroding trust in the media) was the reporting around the Covington students in 2019. That should of been a warning and a lesson to those within the media, a watershed as it were. Yet that wasn't to be the case. I am not sure if you are aware of that incident and how it was reported but if not then I would urge you to look. And then we had Covid and the pandemic where the lab leak theory was reported and dismissed as a conspiracy, it was reported to be a "pandemic of the unvaccinated" and reported that if you got vaccinated the virus stopped at you. All lies. This is why more and more journalists themselves are now turning away from legacy media and turning to the likes of Substack, so they are not constrained by the political bias and ideological capture of legacy media (such as gender ideology and CRT, for example). Its why Bari Weiss left the New York Times, for example. It's why Suzanne Moore and Hadley Freeman decided they could no longer work for the Guardian. Perhaps those outside the media may play their part but for the most part its the media who are bringing that on themselves. All about opinions though of course... With the whole world now at our fingertips there is no reason to blindly believe the press implicitly. Everything can now be fact checked if people wish to. The problem is that when the media tell people things that agree with their prejudices they tend to not check for any truth. Outlets like Fox News in the US don't have any balance. In the UK we have a press regulator, toothless as they are, who tend to hold the UK media to slightly higher standards.
The lab leak theory was not completely dismissed by many people and it hasn't yet been proven or dis-proven. As for the vaccine the death toll did drop once the vaccines were rolled out, but how much of that was down to so many of those that were particularly vulnerable dying in the early stages of the pandemic and the herd immunity that those who survived or even weren't that badly affected had helped to develop? No-one knows for sure, but to call it all out as lies is a bit much.
Back on track these two stories from the BBC show us that the situation in Israel is spiraling out of control.
If they don't get a lid on this soon there is going to be an all out war in the region.
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 2, 2024 13:07:27 GMT 1
7 aid workers killed by Israeli strike. Israeli military expresses their sincere sorrow "This happens in wartime"
The Israeli government really do have to be stopped in their tracks!
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 3, 2024 6:32:09 GMT 1
Where are all the IDF apologists these days? Have they run out excuses?
Come on guys, come and explain to everyone how these kids murdered by IDF snipers were somehow being used as human shields.
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Post by Pilch on Apr 3, 2024 7:51:48 GMT 1
Where are all the IDF apologists these days? Have they run out excuses?
Come on guys, come and explain to everyone how these kids murdered by IDF snipers were somehow being used as human shields.
I don't follow this war at all , and don't really like this provocative post you've made , without even pretending to know what's going on over there I can only presume ( based on just your post ) it's like when our government were killing innocent people in Iraq not long ago , are there still any labour apologists about ? I only ask as I don't do politics either
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 3, 2024 7:59:07 GMT 1
Where are all the IDF apologists these days? Have they run out excuses?
Come on guys, come and explain to everyone how these kids murdered by IDF snipers were somehow being used as human shields.
I don't follow this war at all , and don't really like this provocative post you've made , without even pretending to know what's going on over there I can only presume ( based on just your post ) it's like when our government were killing innocent people in Iraq not long ago , are there still any labour apologists about ? I only ask as I don't do politics either I think you might find that I was against the Iraq war, as we're many Labour supporters, members and MPs. FYI it wouldn't have happened without the almost unanimous support of the Tories in parliament at the time How is it provocative of me to call out those people that have blamed Hamas for all the deaths in Gaza , while I and others have been called Hamas apologists for wanting an end to the slaughter. Check back and in my very first post on this thread I condemned Hamas and was still called an apologist. Anyway thanks for your input. I'm sure someone got kicked for allegedly trolling you, so perhaps a look in the mirror is called for. Just sayin'.
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Post by Pilch on Apr 3, 2024 8:02:25 GMT 1
I don't follow this war at all , and don't really like this provocative post you've made , without even pretending to know what's going on over there I can only presume ( based on just your post ) it's like when our government were killing innocent people in Iraq not long ago , are there still any labour apologists about ? I only ask as I don't do politics either I think you might find that I was against the Iraq war, as we're many Labour supporters, members and MPs. FYI it wouldn't have happened without the almost unanimous support of the Tories in parliament at the time How is it provocative of me to call out those people that have blamed Hamas for all the deaths in Gaza , while I and others have been called Hamas apologists for wanting an end to the slaughter. Check back and in my very first post on this thread I condemned Hamas and was still called an apologist. Anyway thanks for your input. I'm sure someone got kicked for allegedly trolling you, so perhaps a look in the mirror is called for. Just sayin'. You brought me into it again , please don't
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 3, 2024 8:15:23 GMT 1
I think you might find that I was against the Iraq war, as we're many Labour supporters, members and MPs. FYI it wouldn't have happened without the almost unanimous support of the Tories in parliament at the time How is it provocative of me to call out those people that have blamed Hamas for all the deaths in Gaza , while I and others have been called Hamas apologists for wanting an end to the slaughter. Check back and in my very first post on this thread I condemned Hamas and was still called an apologist. Anyway thanks for your input. I'm sure someone got kicked for allegedly trolling you, so perhaps a look in the mirror is called for. Just sayin'. You brought me into it again , please don't You decided to come onto this thread to have a little dig at me mate. You brought yourself into it.
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Post by Pilch on Apr 3, 2024 8:33:15 GMT 1
You brought me into it again , please don't You decided to come onto this thread to have a little dig at me mate. You brought yourself into it. I'm not so sure that I did
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Post by venceremos on Apr 3, 2024 14:09:12 GMT 1
Where are all the IDF apologists these days? Have they run out excuses?
Come on guys, come and explain to everyone how these kids murdered by IDF snipers were somehow being used as human shields.
I don't follow this war at all , and don't really like this provocative post you've made , without even pretending to know what's going on over there I can only presume ( based on just your post ) it's like when our government were killing innocent people in Iraq not long ago , are there still any labour apologists about ? I only ask as I don't do politics either So you " don't follow this war" and don't do politics but you still feel the need to chip in with ..... whatever that post is? And then you complain that you've somehow been brought into this, presumably against your will? Who made you post that? Nobody but you.
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Post by Pilch on Apr 3, 2024 14:17:08 GMT 1
I don't follow this war at all , and don't really like this provocative post you've made , without even pretending to know what's going on over there I can only presume ( based on just your post ) it's like when our government were killing innocent people in Iraq not long ago , are there still any labour apologists about ? I only ask as I don't do politics either So you " don't follow this war" and don't do politics but you still feel the need to chip in with ..... whatever that post is? And then you complain that you've somehow been brought into this, presumably against your will? Who made you post that? Nobody but you. but I do follow threads on this forum, I saw a big hole in the argument so drove a truck through it , I kind of hoped it might prevent another outbreak of personal attacks like what happened on here recently, seems I just the bullet instead
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 4, 2024 8:43:40 GMT 1
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68729302When pretty much every top legal expert in the country is calling for the government to stop selling weapons to Israel it makes you wonder why the government won't publish the legal advice that they have received. What don't they want us to know? Still no response from those on here that support the Israeli military after the killing of 7 aid workers in Gaza. Funny that. Maybe they've reconsidered , but I very much doubt it or maybe they're trying to find a way to spin it so that Hamas get the blame for Israel bombing them.
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Post by The Clash 1966 on Apr 4, 2024 15:44:47 GMT 1
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68729302When pretty much every top legal expert in the country is calling for the government to stop selling weapons to Israel it makes you wonder why the government won't publish the legal advice that they have received. What don't they want us to know? Still no response from those on here that support the Israeli military after the killing of 7 aid workers in Gaza. Funny that. Maybe they've reconsidered , but I very much doubt it or maybe they're trying to find a way to spin it so that Hamas get the blame for Israel bombing them. i still support Israel
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Apr 4, 2024 17:09:35 GMT 1
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68729302When pretty much every top legal expert in the country is calling for the government to stop selling weapons to Israel it makes you wonder why the government won't publish the legal advice that they have received. What don't they want us to know? Still no response from those on here that support the Israeli military after the killing of 7 aid workers in Gaza. Funny that. Maybe they've reconsidered , but I very much doubt it or maybe they're trying to find a way to spin it so that Hamas get the blame for Israel bombing them. All war is awful and innocent people almost always get caught up in it. Whether they're aid workers or civilians from Gaza is immaterial to the cause and effect. They're in a war zone because the democratically elected government of a sovereign nation decided to eliminate a terrorist organisation that murdered over a thousand of it's citizens and hundreds of hostages. Is that goal worth the cost? That's the issue that's the crux of it. In the early days it looked like it and the longer it goes on and the harder it gets the less defensible that position is because the just war theory has to allow for an outcome and doesn't allow you to kill however many people you want to achieve the goal. But it would be really hypocritical to say it needs to stop because some westerners got caught up in it.
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 4, 2024 18:46:54 GMT 1
7Aid workers is just the latest, add that to the starving population, the destroyed hospitals, even accidental killing of their own people being held hostage. I'd vote to stop supplying Israel with munitions.
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 4, 2024 19:42:30 GMT 1
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68729302When pretty much every top legal expert in the country is calling for the government to stop selling weapons to Israel it makes you wonder why the government won't publish the legal advice that they have received. What don't they want us to know? Still no response from those on here that support the Israeli military after the killing of 7 aid workers in Gaza. Funny that. Maybe they've reconsidered , but I very much doubt it or maybe they're trying to find a way to spin it so that Hamas get the blame for Israel bombing them. i still support Israel Well colour me surprised
Just out of curiosity is there anything they could do that would make you change your opinion? Maybe if the body count got up to 6 million or so?
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 4, 2024 20:14:55 GMT 1
You decided to come onto this thread to have a little dig at me mate. You brought yourself into it. I'm not so sure that I did You did.
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Post by The Clash 1966 on Apr 4, 2024 21:13:51 GMT 1
Well colour me surprised
Just out of curiosity is there anything they could do that would make you change your opinion? Maybe if the body count got up to 6 million or so?
Well that's a b***hy little comment. Unlikely that 6 million would die in this conflict. I'd rather have a strong Israel compared to it's troublesome neighbours. Anyway Neil I know it's a day early but happy Shabbat for tomorrow night ๐๐
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Post by Pilch on Apr 4, 2024 21:31:58 GMT 1
I'm not so sure that I did You did. you cant make an omelette without breaking a few eggs ;-)
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Post by jamo on Apr 4, 2024 21:54:14 GMT 1
A significant move by Biden this evening, which Israel will ignore to their own detriment.
When their closest allies are threatening to withdraw support then it really is time for them to rethink their strategy.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 5, 2024 6:48:33 GMT 1
As far as I can recall every iteration of this conflict sees Israel given a window to respond to any aggression before international opinion turns on them. Its inevitable with manner of the fighting. It looks as though we are now at that stage again. Granted this latest iteration is on a scale we haven't seen for a good while (from what I recall anyhow) but then that went for the October 7th attack too. Lets see what now happens. If there is an arms embargo (of any type); how Israel reacts, how others in the region react. But I do think Biden is serious about this, that its an election year will certainly play its part too (with the polls predicting yet another tight race). And of course looking further ahead, whether Hamas survives all this and what that means to for lasting solution.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 5, 2024 7:02:41 GMT 1
That's a given but its still not going to stop a fair few vile individuals from referencing the holocaust.
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 5, 2024 7:03:24 GMT 1
Well colour me surprised
Just out of curiosity is there anything they could do that would make you change your opinion? Maybe if the body count got up to 6 million or so?
Well that's a b***hy little comment. Unlikely that 6 million would die in this conflict. I'd rather have a strong Israel compared to it's troublesome neighbours. Anyway Neil I know it's a day early but happy Shabbat for tomorrow night ๐๐ Ooh, did the little man get triggered. Bless. Care to give a number that you think shouldn't be exceeded? We're currently at around 33,000, would 40,000 be too many? 50,000 maybe?
If Israel had gone into Gaza in a series of clinical strikes that only targeted Hamas, not razed entire cities to dust, not slaughtered thousands of innocent civilians and not brought about the near famine conditions currently being experienced I think that the level of support would have remained high for Israel. Even I would have had to accept that there would be some 'collateral damage' as you and your mates on here like to call it, but even if 3,000 of those dead in Gaza were Hamas fighters that would leave 30,000 innocent people also dead and that is well beyond acceptable 'collateral damage'. Surely even you can accept that.
Thank you very much and a happy Saturday to you too. I take it you'll be staying at home once the sun goes down tonight and not cooking or buying anything until tomorrow night.
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 5, 2024 7:06:02 GMT 1
That's a given but its still not going to stop a fair few vile individuals from referencing the holocaust. You or your mates could always report my post. Again.
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 5, 2024 7:15:31 GMT 1
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68729302When pretty much every top legal expert in the country is calling for the government to stop selling weapons to Israel it makes you wonder why the government won't publish the legal advice that they have received. What don't they want us to know? Still no response from those on here that support the Israeli military after the killing of 7 aid workers in Gaza. Funny that. Maybe they've reconsidered , but I very much doubt it or maybe they're trying to find a way to spin it so that Hamas get the blame for Israel bombing them. All war is awful and innocent people almost always get caught up in it. Whether they're aid workers or civilians from Gaza is immaterial to the cause and effect. They're in a war zone because the democratically elected government of a sovereign nation decided to eliminate a terrorist organisation that murdered over a thousand of it's citizens and hundreds of hostages. Is that goal worth the cost? That's the issue that's the crux of it. In the early days it looked like it and the longer it goes on and the harder it gets the less defensible that position is because the just war theory has to allow for an outcome and doesn't allow you to kill however many people you want to achieve the goal. But it would be really hypocritical to say it needs to stop because some westerners got caught up in it.You always had the opportunity to choose the side of the innocent civilians getting killed on a daily basis, but elected to side with the war machine instead, so you're right, to call for a cease to the slaughter would reek of hypocrisy, but I think you are beginning to see the light, belatedly.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Apr 5, 2024 8:46:10 GMT 1
All war is awful and innocent people almost always get caught up in it. Whether they're aid workers or civilians from Gaza is immaterial to the cause and effect. They're in a war zone because the democratically elected government of a sovereign nation decided to eliminate a terrorist organisation that murdered over a thousand of it's citizens and hundreds of hostages. Is that goal worth the cost? That's the issue that's the crux of it. In the early days it looked like it and the longer it goes on and the harder it gets the less defensible that position is because the just war theory has to allow for an outcome and doesn't allow you to kill however many people you want to achieve the goal. But it would be really hypocritical to say it needs to stop because some westerners got caught up in it.You always had the opportunity to choose the side of the innocent civilians getting killed on a daily basis, but elected to side with the war machine instead, so you're right, to call for a cease to the slaughter would reek of hypocrisy, but I think you are beginning to see the light, belatedly. The innocent civilians getting killed started this. Not a single one was in Gaza. But they were killed by a trained, armed group who exist for their destruction. Millions of state money intended to benefit the population taken to create a militia, and an underground city to support its aims. Yet the other side is the "war machine"? Hamas was created for war. It has no purpose without it. Do you understand how daft you've started to sound? Next up it'll be a throw away Holocaust line. Oh no you've used that one already. ๐
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 5, 2024 9:59:33 GMT 1
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68729302When pretty much every top legal expert in the country is calling for the government to stop selling weapons to Israel it makes you wonder why the government won't publish the legal advice that they have received. What don't they want us to know? Still no response from those on here that support the Israeli military after the killing of 7 aid workers in Gaza. Funny that. Maybe they've reconsidered , but I very much doubt it or maybe they're trying to find a way to spin it so that Hamas get the blame for Israel bombing them. All war is awful and innocent people almost always get caught up in it. Whether they're aid workers or civilians from Gaza is immaterial to the cause and effect. They're in a war zone because the democratically elected government of a sovereign nation decided to eliminate a terrorist organisation that murdered over a thousand of it's citizens and hundreds of hostages. Is that goal worth the cost? That's the issue that's the crux of it. In the early days it looked like it and the longer it goes on and the harder it gets the less defensible that position is because the just war theory has to allow for an outcome and doesn't allow you to kill however many people you want to achieve the goal. But it would be really hypocritical to say it needs to stop because some westerners got caught up in it. Frankly I don't mind if it is hypocritical, provided it stops the slaughter of innocents. The non hypocritical version is that these were 7 brave peaceful people with the objective of bringing aid to starving people. Israeli missiles attacked one car, clearly marked as an aid vehicle and notified to the Israeli armed forces. That might have been considered an accident, but they went on to attack other clearly marked vehicles, how is that an accident?
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