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Post by kenwood on Aug 10, 2022 15:17:35 GMT 1
Does an influence of Corbyn and Momentum on the local Shropshire Labour party constitute parliamentry sleaze? What exactly is wrong with an influence of Corbyn and Momentum? Just like the Tories, Labour has a broad set of members.
It's pretty obvious, I would have thought that the Lib Dems are the party to defeat an entrenched Tory MP in Shrewsbury and Atcham, isn't that why he's moved over?.
No great loss . He conveniently forgets that the Labour Party supported him , gave him the opportunity to become Mayor and provided a platform for him to challenge the sitting Tory candidate as an MP . He has been in a position to challenge those influenced by Corbyn and Momentum but obviously hasn’t been able to for whatever reason. So, now off he trots to join the Lib Dems or , as he puts it, a “strong alternative”. Pathetic to my mind. |
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Post by ssshrew on Aug 10, 2022 17:50:59 GMT 1
He needs to realise that the Lib Dems will jump any way that suits them just like Nick Clegg did. They have nothing much to offer except to shore up a minority government of any persuasion.
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Post by northwestman on Aug 10, 2022 18:05:57 GMT 1
He needs to realise that the Lib Dems will jump any way that suits them just like Nick Clegg did. They have nothing much to offer except to shore up a minority government of any persuasion. That said, Helen Morgan seems to be doing a good job in North Shropshire. She's very much on the case re failings of the NHS in Shropshire. Plus she issues a weekly bulletin which shows she's been working hard for her constituents. |
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Post by martinshrew on Aug 10, 2022 18:07:44 GMT 1
He needs to realise that the Lib Dems will jump any way that suits them just like Nick Clegg did. They have nothing much to offer except to shore up a minority government of any persuasion. Historically yes, I'm not so sure anymore. Local counselors who've got in recently seem to be doing good things. |
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Post by ssshrew on Aug 10, 2022 18:35:31 GMT 1
I do hope you are both right. I lost all faith in them with Nick Clegg I’m afraid.
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Post by northwestman on Aug 11, 2022 11:36:45 GMT 1
Boris Johnson this summer looks like the biggest shirker of hard work or responsibility in the land. Amid increasingly dire warnings about fuel bills, the PM has skived off with a mini-break, a wedding party and honeymoon that could easily have waited until he’s out of office next month.
If Johnson lived on a council estate, he’d be front-page tabloid fodder: SPONGER OF THE YEAR – a father of eight kids (at least) who squats in publicly-funded housing on a publicly-funded income, then jets off for his hols when he should be working.
The 'i'.
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Post by sheltonsalopian on Aug 11, 2022 11:40:12 GMT 1
I'm the last man to defend politicians jumping ship to protect their own career interests, but anyone accusing someone of switching to the Lib Dems of it is madness, they are hardly a big political force.
(I consider myself a Lib Dem as well!)
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Post by staffordshrew on Aug 11, 2022 11:58:42 GMT 1
I'm the last man to defend politicians jumping ship to protect their own career interests, but anyone accusing someone of switching to the Lib Dems of it is madness, they are hardly a big political force. (I consider myself a Lib Dem as well!) Erm, after North Shropshire, which party has the best career prospects in dominating Shropshire council and defeating dopey Danny in Shrewsbury and Atcham? |
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Post by northwestman on Aug 11, 2022 11:59:13 GMT 1
There have been many descriptions of Boris Johnson, but this one by Rory Stewart I consider to be one of the best:
Writing in the Times Literary Supplement, former politician Rory Stewart observed that Johnson is "the most accomplished liar in public life. Perhaps the best liar ever to serve as prime minister. He has mastered the use of error, omission, exaggeration, diminution, equivocation and flat denial. He has perfected casuistry, circumlocution, false equivalence and false analogy. He is equally adept at the ironic jest, the fib and the grand lie; the weasel word and half-truth; the hyperbolic lie, the obvious lie and the bulls**t lie". Wiki.
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Post by staffordshrew on Aug 11, 2022 12:17:08 GMT 1
There have been many descriptions of Boris Johnson, but this one by Rory Stewart I consider to be one of the best: Writing in the Times Literary Supplement, former politician Rory Stewart observed that Johnson is "the most accomplished liar in public life. Perhaps the best liar ever to serve as prime minister. He has mastered the use of error, omission, exaggeration, diminution, equivocation and flat denial. He has perfected casuistry, circumlocution, false equivalence and false analogy. He is equally adept at the ironic jest, the fib and the grand lie; the weasel word and half-truth; the hyperbolic lie, the obvious lie and the bulls**t lie". Wiki. His romantic dalliances over the years are a pointer to his loose relationship with the truth: A rogue, but, apparently, a lovable rogue.
If he's been tamed by Carrie and found out as PM, where does he go from here??
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Post by northwestman on Aug 11, 2022 12:30:40 GMT 1
I'm the last man to defend politicians jumping ship to protect their own career interests, but anyone accusing someone of switching to the Lib Dems of it is madness, they are hardly a big political force. (I consider myself a Lib Dem as well!) Erm, after North Shropshire, which party has the best career prospects in dominating Shropshire council and defeating dopey Danny in Shrewsbury and Atcham? Yes. Tactical voting has been very successful in by elections, including North Shropshire. It now needs to be employed in the General Election, otherwise the opposition vote will be split, allowing Kawczynski another 5 years. On the face of it, Labour look best placed to be the main challenger to the Tories in Shrewsbury, having come 2nd in the General Election. But that is deceptive. Helen Morgan came a poor 3rd in North Shropshire in 2019, but the majority of Conservative supporters here were never going to switch to Labour. Hence when the by election took place they either sat on their hands or backed Helen Morgan. I strongly suspect that the same scenario exists in Shrewsbury - if you want Tory supporters to desert Kawczynski, then the Lib Dem candidate is likely to be where they take their vote, as few will transfer their allegiance to Labour, even though I'm aware that Paul Marsden won the seat twice for Labour in 1997 and 2001 before defecting to the Lib Dems. But that was over 20 years ago and the demographics of Shrewsbury have changed. However, in Telford a Lib Dem vote is a wasted vote, so their supporters need to get behind the Labour candidate if Allan is to be defeated. Co-operation between the Labour Party and the Lib Dems in the area of tactical voting is something the Tories fear. It's gone on unofficially in North Shropshire, Tiverton & Amersham and Wakefield, but needs to be developed further. |
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Post by sheltonsalopian on Aug 11, 2022 14:42:04 GMT 1
I'm the last man to defend politicians jumping ship to protect their own career interests, but anyone accusing someone of switching to the Lib Dems of it is madness, they are hardly a big political force. (I consider myself a Lib Dem as well!) Erm, after North Shropshire, which party has the best career prospects in dominating Shropshire council and defeating dopey Danny in Shrewsbury and Atcham? Labour, they have a much bigger presence in Shrewsbury and Atcham |
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Post by davycrockett on Aug 11, 2022 14:57:55 GMT 1
Erm, after North Shropshire, which party has the best career prospects in dominating Shropshire council and defeating dopey Danny in Shrewsbury and Atcham? Yes. Tactical voting has been very successful in by elections, including North Shropshire. It now needs to be employed in the General Election, otherwise the opposition vote will be split, allowing Kawczynski another 5 years. On the face of it, Labour look best placed to be the main challenger to the Tories in Shrewsbury, having come 2nd in the General Election. But that is deceptive. Helen Morgan came a poor 3rd in North Shropshire in 2019, but the majority of Conservative supporters here were never going to switch to Labour. Hence when the by election took place they either sat on their hands or backed Helen Morgan. I strongly suspect that the same scenario exists in Shrewsbury - if you want Tory supporters to desert Kawczynski, then the Lib Dem candidate is likely to be where they take their vote, as few will transfer their allegiance to Labour, even though I'm aware that Paul Marsden won the seat twice for Labour in 1997 and 2001 before defecting to the Lib Dems. But that was over 20 years ago and the demographics of Shrewsbury have changed.
However, in Telford a Lib Dem vote is a wasted vote, so their supporters need to get behind the Labour candidate if Allan is to be defeated.Co-operation between the Labour Party and the Lib Dems in the area of tactical voting is something the Tories fear. It's gone on unofficially in North Shropshire, Tiverton & Amersham and Wakefield, but needs to be developed further. Need to be very careful that tactical voting doesn’t split the anti Tory vote and leave the Tory MP in place. I think if it went this way in a general election you need to be selective where you put a candidate up. In other words in your example no Labour candidate in Shrewsbury and no Lib Dem in Telford. It also needs accurate assessments of how many each party sacrifice and make sure you don’t reduce either Labour or Lib Dem wins to let the totes in. You’re also likely to end up with a hung parliament and Labour Lib Dem coalition (or Lib Dem Labour)… |
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Post by staffordshrew on Aug 11, 2022 15:08:06 GMT 1
Erm, after North Shropshire, which party has the best career prospects in dominating Shropshire council and defeating dopey Danny in Shrewsbury and Atcham? Labour, they have a much bigger presence in Shrewsbury and Atcham A big presence maybe, but, after North Shropshire, which party can win over those Tory voters who will never vote Labour?
Can see Labour doing ok, Lib picking up the less devoted Tories and Danny boy sneaking in again. Tactical voting required!
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Post by block12massive on Aug 11, 2022 15:15:59 GMT 1
Here's a novel thought... you just vote for a local MP that aligns itself closest with your views and take it from there.
I've never known the 'right' to tactically vote. Unless I'm mistaken, I'm certainly not aware if it has been done before.
Then again I've never known the 'right' to bundle dodgy postal votes in vans and dump them at the polling station at the eleventh hour.
I've definitely not known the 'right' to be resistant to people proving who they are before exercising their democratic right either.
Funny that.
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Post by zenfootball2 on Aug 11, 2022 15:23:03 GMT 1
He needs to realise that the Lib Dems will jump any way that suits them just like Nick Clegg did. They have nothing much to offer except to shore up a minority government of any persuasion. That said, Helen Morgan seems to be doing a good job in North Shropshire. She's very much on the case re failings of the NHS in Shropshire. Plus she issues a weekly bulletin which shows she's been working hard for her constituents. she also asked the transport secretary about the bus service cuts in shropshire that was the one Daniel Kawczynski mp was not present in, she seems a lot more on top of local issues than our MP, have we heard anything from on the cost of living, rural crime, bus service the water companies dumping sewerage in the rivers, the amalgemation of GP's into a health hub ? |
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Post by Minormorris64 on Aug 11, 2022 15:23:54 GMT 1
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Post by staffordshrew on Aug 11, 2022 15:35:58 GMT 1
Here's a novel thought... you just vote for a local MP that aligns itself closest with your views and take it from there. I've never known the 'right' to tactically vote. Unless I'm mistaken, I'm certainly not aware if it has been done before. Then again I've never known the 'right' to bundle dodgy postal votes in vans and dump them at the polling station at the eleventh hour. I've definitely not known the 'right' to be resistant to people proving who they are before exercising their democratic right either. Funny that. Yes, great idea, if you want Danny K yet again....
Here's another novel thought... you just vote for a local MP candidate who aligns themselves closest with your views and take it from there - rather than just voting for DK because you always vote Tory.
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Post by northwestman on Aug 11, 2022 17:45:43 GMT 1
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Post by staffordshrew on Aug 11, 2022 20:25:03 GMT 1
Why should they hand it back - he's one of their most respectable donors. |
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Post by staffordshrew on Aug 12, 2022 17:05:55 GMT 1
Oh dear, even the kids don't want to be identified associating with her.
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Post by northwestman on Aug 12, 2022 18:09:55 GMT 1
As the Commons Privileges Committee investigates whether Boris Johnson misled Parliament in repeatedly denying partygate accusations, the disgraced PM and his allies are once again fighting tooth and nail to avoid even basic accountability.
In true Trumpian fashion, Johnson and his allies have branded the investigation a “witch-hunt”. Their urgent efforts to fight the probe indicate that they know what we know – it is going to find something they don’t want the public to see.
They are trying to make us believe that public demands for accountability from our government are an abuse of power.
Nadine Dorries, Johnson’s Culture Secretary, has called the investigation “the most egregious abuse of power witnessed in Westminster”. She’s never minded abuses of power before, like when her government assumed control of the 'independent' Electoral Commission, took away rights to peaceful protest, and got caught giving out PPE contracts to their friends.
Zac Goldsmith, given a lifetime peerage by Johnson after the people of Richmond Park kicked him out of the Commons at the 2019 election, also whined about the inquiry, calling the MPs on the Committee “vengeful and vindictive”. Yet he apparently sees no problem with Johnson's shameful plan to pack the Lords with Tory donors and hard Brexit zealots.
Team Johnson are so desperate to protect him that some are even calling on him to resign as an MP in an attempt to avoid the probe.
Whether he stays, resigns, or is forced to fight a by-election, they’ll continue lying to the public about “partisan witch-hunts” and “abuses of power” in a shoddy attempt to flip the narrative and avoid the consequences of their actions. Talk about bringing democracy into disrepute.
To top it all, our likely next PM, Liz Truss, has said she would like to shut down the investigation. If you need any reminder of the low standards Johnson has set for public life, or of the fact that Liz Truss is just another power-hungry, morally bankrupt Johnsonist prepared to gaslight the public to achieve her personal ambitions, there it is.
Open Britain.
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Post by northwestman on Aug 14, 2022 9:27:49 GMT 1
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Post by staffordshrew on Aug 14, 2022 10:26:23 GMT 1
"Her Conservative predecessors as secretary of state had promised to publish several of the reports". Disabled people, and their carers, deserve a more open approach. Thérèse Coffey, what have you got to hide?
These "official reports", did we, as taxpayers, pay for them? Then we, as taxpayers, should see them. So much for open government.
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Post by armchairfan on Aug 14, 2022 14:12:46 GMT 1
Erm, after North Shropshire, which party has the best career prospects in dominating Shropshire council and defeating dopey Danny in Shrewsbury and Atcham? Yes. Tactical voting has been very successful in by elections, including North Shropshire. It now needs to be employed in the General Election, otherwise the opposition vote will be split, allowing Kawczynski another 5 years. On the face of it, Labour look best placed to be the main challenger to the Tories in Shrewsbury, having come 2nd in the General Election. But that is deceptive. Helen Morgan came a poor 3rd in North Shropshire in 2019, but the majority of Conservative supporters here were never going to switch to Labour. Hence when the by election took place they either sat on their hands or backed Helen Morgan. I strongly suspect that the same scenario exists in Shrewsbury - if you want Tory supporters to desert Kawczynski, then the Lib Dem candidate is likely to be where they take their vote, as few will transfer their allegiance to Labour, even though I'm aware that Paul Marsden won the seat twice for Labour in 1997 and 2001 before defecting to the Lib Dems. But that was over 20 years ago and the demographics of Shrewsbury have changed. However, in Telford a Lib Dem vote is a wasted vote, so their supporters need to get behind the Labour candidate if Allan is to be defeated. Co-operation between the Labour Party and the Lib Dems in the area of tactical voting is something the Tories fear. It's gone on unofficially in North Shropshire, Tiverton & Amersham and Wakefield, but needs to be developed further. Of course, much, if not all, of this is predicated on the basis of Mr Kawczynski being the Conservative candidate at the next GE.... On the wider issue of "tactical voting", in the event of such a tactic proving successful, it would inevitably result in the election of a government which, quite literally, and by definition, nobody actually would have positively voted for; ain't Democracy a wonderful thing... |
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Post by staffordshrew on Aug 14, 2022 14:32:58 GMT 1
Yes. Tactical voting has been very successful in by elections, including North Shropshire. It now needs to be employed in the General Election, otherwise the opposition vote will be split, allowing Kawczynski another 5 years. On the face of it, Labour look best placed to be the main challenger to the Tories in Shrewsbury, having come 2nd in the General Election. But that is deceptive. Helen Morgan came a poor 3rd in North Shropshire in 2019, but the majority of Conservative supporters here were never going to switch to Labour. Hence when the by election took place they either sat on their hands or backed Helen Morgan. I strongly suspect that the same scenario exists in Shrewsbury - if you want Tory supporters to desert Kawczynski, then the Lib Dem candidate is likely to be where they take their vote, as few will transfer their allegiance to Labour, even though I'm aware that Paul Marsden won the seat twice for Labour in 1997 and 2001 before defecting to the Lib Dems. But that was over 20 years ago and the demographics of Shrewsbury have changed. However, in Telford a Lib Dem vote is a wasted vote, so their supporters need to get behind the Labour candidate if Allan is to be defeated. Co-operation between the Labour Party and the Lib Dems in the area of tactical voting is something the Tories fear. It's gone on unofficially in North Shropshire, Tiverton & Amersham and Wakefield, but needs to be developed further. Of course, much, if not all, of this is predicated on the basis of Mr Kawczynski being the Conservative candidate at the next GE.... On the wider issue of "tactical voting", in the event of such a tactic proving successful, it would inevitably result in the election of a government which, quite literally, and by definition, nobody actually would have positively voted for; ain't Democracy a wonderful thing... Absolutely no disrespect intended Mr Armchair, but I find your more succinct posts easier to read and they get your point across better  |
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Post by davycrockett on Aug 14, 2022 14:44:37 GMT 1
He needs to realise that the Lib Dems will jump any way that suits them just like Nick Clegg did. They have nothing much to offer except to shore up a minority government of any persuasion. That said, Helen Morgan seems to be doing a good job in North Shropshire. She's very much on the case re failings of the NHS in Shropshire. Plus she issues a weekly bulletin which shows she's been working hard for her constituents. She is but time will tell if she’s affective. Easy to be in the opposition, but has she reduced Ambulance waiting times? Has North Shropshire been levelled up yet? |
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Post by armchairfan on Aug 14, 2022 14:50:58 GMT 1
Of course, much, if not all, of this is predicated on the basis of Mr Kawczynski being the Conservative candidate at the next GE.... On the wider issue of "tactical voting", in the event of such a tactic proving successful, it would inevitably result in the election of a government which, quite literally, and by definition, nobody actually would have positively voted for; ain't Democracy a wonderful thing... Absolutely no disrespect intended Mr Armchair, but I find your more succinct posts easier to read and they get your point across better In the spirit of your comment, I accept it wholeheartedly! |
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Post by wookeywombat on Aug 14, 2022 15:02:20 GMT 1
Yes. Tactical voting has been very successful in by elections, including North Shropshire. It now needs to be employed in the General Election, otherwise the opposition vote will be split, allowing Kawczynski another 5 years. On the face of it, Labour look best placed to be the main challenger to the Tories in Shrewsbury, having come 2nd in the General Election. But that is deceptive. Helen Morgan came a poor 3rd in North Shropshire in 2019, but the majority of Conservative supporters here were never going to switch to Labour. Hence when the by election took place they either sat on their hands or backed Helen Morgan. I strongly suspect that the same scenario exists in Shrewsbury - if you want Tory supporters to desert Kawczynski, then the Lib Dem candidate is likely to be where they take their vote, as few will transfer their allegiance to Labour, even though I'm aware that Paul Marsden won the seat twice for Labour in 1997 and 2001 before defecting to the Lib Dems. But that was over 20 years ago and the demographics of Shrewsbury have changed. However, in Telford a Lib Dem vote is a wasted vote, so their supporters need to get behind the Labour candidate if Allan is to be defeated. Co-operation between the Labour Party and the Lib Dems in the area of tactical voting is something the Tories fear. It's gone on unofficially in North Shropshire, Tiverton & Amersham and Wakefield, but needs to be developed further. Of course, much, if not all, of this is predicated on the basis of Mr Kawczynski being the Conservative candidate at the next GE.... On the wider issue of "tactical voting", in the event of such a tactic proving successful, it would inevitably result in the election of a government which, quite literally, and by definition, nobody actually would have positively voted for; ain't Democracy a wonderful thing... On the other hand, if tactical voting resulted in a coalition Government you could say that more of the voters choices were represented instead of the usual 30-40% (at most). |
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Post by armchairfan on Aug 14, 2022 15:26:40 GMT 1
Of course, much, if not all, of this is predicated on the basis of Mr Kawczynski being the Conservative candidate at the next GE.... On the wider issue of "tactical voting", in the event of such a tactic proving successful, it would inevitably result in the election of a government which, quite literally, and by definition, nobody actually would have positively voted for; ain't Democracy a wonderful thing... On the other hand, if tactical voting resulted in a coalition Government you could say that more of the voters choices were represented instead of the usual 30-40% (at most). I do accept that, of course, but only from a strictly arithmetical viewpoint: we would, if such a thing were to happen, still have a government for which zero % (noone) voted; I find it difficult to reconcile such an outcome with my understanding of Democracy...; in any event, the most recent example of Coalition government in the UK was not an entirely overwhelming success, the reasons for which are still the subject of much bitter argument, both within the Parties, and beyond; the much talked about "centre-ground" of UK politics is an unstable one, and has become a chimera. |
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