Drew
Midland League Division One
Posts: 416
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Post by Drew on Feb 27, 2021 16:04:48 GMT 1
For me her age at the time she left is very relevant but she is older now and doesn't seem to have actually changed her opinions much which is undoubtedly working against her. She is quoted in an interview in 2019 as saying she was 'ok' with beheadings and you get the impression that had IS not been defeated she would still be there. She admits she made a mistake in going but doesn't regret it? She is older now but she seems cold and emotionless. Maybe that is a sign of her radicalisation. I think if she had shown some contrition or signs of rehabilitation (or the ability to be rehabilitated) then some public opinion would be more favourable. If she could evidence she was not a danger to anyone then the most powerful reason for not allowing her to return potentially falls away. In that regard she has not helped herself. Broadly agree with this. However, I will say the interviews were held in camps where to say anything different may have caused her problems. That's a good point to be fair which I hadn't considered.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Feb 27, 2021 16:15:07 GMT 1
Not sure who he was but don’t remember a thread on here about him? I don't see the relevance of whether we have a thread about him to be honest. Anyhow, I guess if those people who are happy to have seen Begum's citizenship revoked and don't want her back in the country think differently about Letts then perhaps we could contemplate that is something because of "brown Muslims" but I doubt that is the case. Plus the decision to revoke her citizenship and refuse her permission to return was taken by Sajid Javid, the former home secretary. Who is, I think, as you put it, a brown Muslim. I gather Javid also made the decision regarding Letts too. Not sure but its possible. No doubt you would then ask whether he did that because Letts is a white Muslim. Again, I think not.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2021 16:19:38 GMT 1
Not sure who he was but don’t remember a thread on here about him? I don't see the relevance of whether we have a thread about him to be honest. Anyhow, I guess if those people who are happy to have seen Begum's citizenship revoked and don't want her back in the country think differently about Letts then perhaps we could contemplate that is something because of "brown Muslims" but I doubt that is the case. Did we have a thread about him?
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Feb 27, 2021 16:26:04 GMT 1
I don't see the relevance of whether we have a thread about him to be honest. Anyhow, I guess if those people who are happy to have seen Begum's citizenship revoked and don't want her back in the country think differently about Letts then perhaps we could contemplate that is something because of "brown Muslims" but I doubt that is the case. Did we have a thread about him? I have no idea. And I don't see the relevance of it. If you feel strongly about and think he should be allowed to return then start one. Or perhaps wait until he attempts to do so.
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Post by davycrockett on Feb 27, 2021 16:39:32 GMT 1
Since you haven’t had the decency to respond to my requests that you evidence your vile accusation that I support the abuse of young girls, I’ll ask instead why you think your opinions have any credibility if you’re not prepared to back them up? Let's get a few things straight: - I don't live on this messageboard - You have no right to demand a reply from me - I certainly have no duty to respond to you. I don't know who you think you are? "So grooming white girls for sexual favours is an outrage and everything must be done to protect them but grooming brown girls for political/military purposes is the brown girl's problem?" The fact you brought the abuse of white girls into this must make you think the crimes are of similar level? Truth of the matter is this: - Girls being physically and emotionally forced into essentially being sex slaves - Girls willingly boarding a plane and journeying half way round the world to joint the most wanted terrorist organisation on the planet The two don't and will never compare. Good riddance to Begum and anyone like her regardless or gender, nationality, colour or sexually. You’ve simply made the descriptions up to suit your argument. You don’t know how the abused girls ended up being abused (personally don’t think it’s fair to speculate as it’s enough they were under age) and don’t really know how or if the ‘brown girl’ as you call themwere manipulated .... the fact that they were all children and ended up being abused is the concern
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Post by martinshrew on Feb 27, 2021 16:50:17 GMT 1
Let's get a few things straight: - I don't live on this messageboard - You have no right to demand a reply from me - I certainly have no duty to respond to you. I don't know who you think you are? "So grooming white girls for sexual favours is an outrage and everything must be done to protect them but grooming brown girls for political/military purposes is the brown girl's problem?" The fact you brought the abuse of white girls into this must make you think the crimes are of similar level? Truth of the matter is this: - Girls being physically and emotionally forced into essentially being sex slaves - Girls willingly boarding a plane and journeying half way round the world to joint the most wanted terrorist organisation on the planet The two don't and will never compare. Good riddance to Begum and anyone like her regardless or gender, nationality, colour or sexually. You’ve simply made the descriptions up to suit your argument. You don’t know how the abused girls ended up being abused (personally don’t think it’s fair to speculate as it’s enough they were under age) and don’t really know how or if the ‘brown girl’ as you call themwere manipulated .... the fact that they were all children and ended up being abused is the concern Never once said "brown girl".
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Post by davycrockett on Feb 27, 2021 17:06:57 GMT 1
You’ve simply made the descriptions up to suit your argument. You don’t know how the abused girls ended up being abused (personally don’t think it’s fair to speculate as it’s enough they were under age) and don’t really know how or if the ‘brown girl’ as you call themwere manipulated .... the fact that they were all children and ended up being abused is the concern Never once said "brown girl". Apologies it was a quote within your post 👍
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Post by armchairfan on Feb 27, 2021 17:09:59 GMT 1
You’ve simply made the descriptions up to suit your argument. You don’t know how the abused girls ended up being abused (personally don’t think it’s fair to speculate as it’s enough they were under age) and don’t really know how or if the ‘brown girl’ as you call themwere manipulated .... the fact that they were all children and ended up being abused is the concern Never once said "brown girl". Surely not a case of words being put into your mouth...? It suits the arguments of some on here that evidence of "abuse" is discovered of course, but then it comes down to agreeing exactly what constitutes what type of abuse; to my mind, anyone, male or female, black, brown or sky-blue pink, who is raised in a religious strait-jacket, is a victim of abuse, but my views on religion are no secret.
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mcrshrew
Midland League Division Two
Posts: 240
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Post by mcrshrew on Feb 27, 2021 18:27:33 GMT 1
Not wishing to go off on one, but should the nazis living in Brazil etc have been left where they were or was it ok for them to be returned to Germany for trial? Or is that different cos they weren’t brown Muslims? Some will tell you that South American governments possibly welcomed them because of their scientific expertise etc and may even have helped hide them. Adolf Eichmann lasted a fair while in Argentina and was so known that the Israelis found out, kidnapped, tried and executed him in Israel. Tracking people across South America with its landscapes and lack of proper administration is a task nowadays so just imagine 70 years ago, especially if these people different names and lived a quiet life. I'm sure many Nazis lived to a ripe old age there without being bothered by all those seeking revenge. Back on topic, there's also the feeling that Begum is being punished more in her current location then in a British prison. If she were to ever come back to the UK and not be in prison, she'd surely be in grave danger.
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Post by venceremos on Feb 27, 2021 20:46:25 GMT 1
Since you haven’t had the decency to respond to my requests that you evidence your vile accusation that I support the abuse of young girls, I’ll ask instead why you think your opinions have any credibility if you’re not prepared to back them up? Let's get a few things straight: - I don't live on this messageboard - You have no right to demand a reply from me - I certainly have no duty to respond to you. I don't know who you think you are? "So grooming white girls for sexual favours is an outrage and everything must be done to protect them but grooming brown girls for political/military purposes is the brown girl's problem?" The fact you brought the abuse of white girls into this must make you think the crimes are of similar level? Truth of the matter is this: - Girls being physically and emotionally forced into essentially being sex slaves - Girls willingly boarding a plane and journeying half way round the world to joint the most wanted terrorist organisation on the planet The two don't and will never compare. Good riddance to Begum and anyone like her regardless or gender, nationality, colour or sexually. Let's get a couple more things straight. First off, I haven't demanded anything from you, I just gave you opportunities to justify what was a vile and defamatory personal attack. The fact you chose not to is up to you, but I'm entitled to highlight that by showing up your vitriolic abuse for the empty rant that it was. If you don't like it, too bad, you brought it on yourself and maybe think before you abuse someone in future. Secondly, it's better not to assume what someone else thinks but especially when they've already explained what they meant. I said yesterday " the point is not what they were led into doing. It's that they were all children at the time." In other words, in case you're hard of thinking, I did not mean that the cases were "of similar level", as you assume. You were involved in that part of the conversation, but perhaps you don't bother to read anyone else's replies before you go off on one. I couldn't care less what you think about this case and vice versa, no doubt. Again, that's not the issue. The point is this is usually a forum for people of widely differing opinions to debate, sometimes passionately, sometimes with humour but almost always, I used to think, with mutual respect. Not you though. Your wholly unwarranted and personally abusive tirade means that I have no more respect for you and your opinions. Your integrity's shot and I'm not interested in anything you have to say. Blocked. Ever think of taking an anger management course?
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Post by martinshrew on Feb 27, 2021 22:03:19 GMT 1
Let's get a few things straight: - I don't live on this messageboard - You have no right to demand a reply from me - I certainly have no duty to respond to you. I don't know who you think you are? "So grooming white girls for sexual favours is an outrage and everything must be done to protect them but grooming brown girls for political/military purposes is the brown girl's problem?" The fact you brought the abuse of white girls into this must make you think the crimes are of similar level? Truth of the matter is this: - Girls being physically and emotionally forced into essentially being sex slaves - Girls willingly boarding a plane and journeying half way round the world to joint the most wanted terrorist organisation on the planet The two don't and will never compare. Good riddance to Begum and anyone like her regardless or gender, nationality, colour or sexually. Let's get a couple more things straight. First off, I haven't demanded anything from you, I just gave you opportunities to justify what was a vile and defamatory personal attack. The fact you chose not to is up to you, but I'm entitled to highlight that by showing up your vitriolic abuse for the empty rant that it was. If you don't like it, too bad, you brought it on yourself and maybe think before you abuse someone in future. Secondly, it's better not to assume what someone else thinks but especially when they've already explained what they meant. I said yesterday " the point is not what they were led into doing. It's that they were all children at the time." In other words, in case you're hard of thinking, I did not mean that the cases were "of similar level", as you assume. You were involved in that part of the conversation, but perhaps you don't bother to read anyone else's replies before you go off on one. I couldn't care less what you think about this case and vice versa, no doubt. Again, that's not the issue. The point is this is usually a forum for people of widely differing opinions to debate, sometimes passionately, sometimes with humour but almost always, I used to think, with mutual respect. Not you though. Your wholly unwarranted and personally abusive tirade means that I have no more respect for you and your opinions. Your integrity's shot and I'm not interested in anything you have to say. Blocked. Ever think of taking an anger management course? I'm hardly going to lose sleep because some sympathiser has blocked me.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Mar 1, 2021 13:04:08 GMT 1
I saw an amusing take on this on twitter (a rare enough event in itself regardless of the subject matter): "You know what is amusing to me? Adults that cannot speak up to their manager when they're unhappy, yet expecting a 15 year old girl to easily be able to resist the manipulation of a global terrorist organisation with millions worth of resources. A lot of you aren't very smart." That's about the height of it. Did she know where the off switch was for the social media that encouraged her, not like she was stood in front of her dragging kicking and screaming eh... Have you heard of online grooming? Should have switched of the computer TEN THOUSAND times: NSPCC online grooming
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Post by Dancin on Feb 22, 2023 11:16:49 GMT 1
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Post by martinshrew on Feb 22, 2023 11:22:30 GMT 1
You have to wonder if it would be better dangling the carrot of citizenship based on how much information on ISIS she provides.
If she spills the beans on everything, having her in prison on the basis she's provided a serious amount of information may be more useful than her being resentfully sat in a makeshift camp.
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Post by Dancin on Feb 22, 2023 11:34:39 GMT 1
You have to wonder if it would be better dangling the carrot of citizenship based on how much information on ISIS she provides. If she spills the beans on everything, having her in prison on the basis she's provided a serious amount of information may be more useful than her being resentfully sat in a makeshift camp. The bloke who made this on BBC iplayer was on Five Live earlier said there was certain parts he didn't feel she was being completely honest about in the interview. Especially the Egyptian bloke she had a kid with who was an arms dealer/mover for ISIS
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Post by martinshrew on Feb 22, 2023 11:39:11 GMT 1
You have to wonder if it would be better dangling the carrot of citizenship based on how much information on ISIS she provides. If she spills the beans on everything, having her in prison on the basis she's provided a serious amount of information may be more useful than her being resentfully sat in a makeshift camp. The bloke who made this on BBC iplayer was on Five Live earlier said there was certain parts he didn't feel she was being completely honest about in the interview. Especially the Egyptian bloke she had a kid with who was an arms dealer/mover for ISIS Yeah I watched that, she's lying about a lot of things, but the dangling carrot of being allowed back to the UK may start the avalanche of information.
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Post by ssshrew on Feb 22, 2023 13:05:54 GMT 1
However. could she then be trusted by either side? Would the information be correct? Would she be putting her life in danger from ISIS if she agreed to do this?
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Post by Dancin on Feb 22, 2023 13:09:49 GMT 1
However. could she then be trusted by either side? Would the information be correct? Would she be putting her life in danger from ISIS if she agreed to do this? She has Bangladeshi heritage (her parents) and even that country don't want her; I expect her to stay in Syria for a very long time to come
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Post by martinshrew on Feb 22, 2023 13:23:40 GMT 1
However. could she then be trusted by either side? Would the information be correct? Would she be putting her life in danger from ISIS if she agreed to do this? She has Bangladeshi heritage (her parents) and even that country don't want her; I expect her to stay in Syria for a very long time to come She's never been to Bangladesh in her life, why would that ever be an option?
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Post by Pilch on Feb 22, 2023 13:33:01 GMT 1
She has Bangladeshi heritage (her parents) and even that country don't want her; I expect her to stay in Syria for a very long time to come She's never been to Bangladesh in her life, why would that ever be an option? he said her parents are from there apparently , seems a reasonable suggestion when there are not many to make maybe it got lost in translation ;/)
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Post by martinshrew on Feb 22, 2023 13:41:16 GMT 1
She's never been to Bangladesh in her life, why would that ever be an option? he said her parents are from there apparently , seems a reasonable suggestion when there are not many to make maybe it got lost in translation ;/) I think her Dad has heritage, it seems a bit of a lose argument to me though.
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Post by Pilch on Feb 22, 2023 13:47:35 GMT 1
maybe send her to peny bont then if she doesn't like it
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Post by servernaside on Feb 22, 2023 15:52:42 GMT 1
Correct decision
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Post by staffordshrew on Feb 22, 2023 16:08:28 GMT 1
This is going to rebound back on us some time in the future. Her, her children, her children's children, festering anti British attitudes into the future. Get her back to face the music and sort this out sooner rather than later.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2023 16:10:09 GMT 1
It wont be the last that we hear of this case.
The human trafficking angle is certainly one that will be the driver going forward.
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Post by martinshrew on Feb 22, 2023 16:15:27 GMT 1
It wont be the last that we hear of this case. The trafficking angle is certainly one that will be the driver going forward. And the fact she was a child.
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Post by mattmw on Feb 22, 2023 16:21:50 GMT 1
I don't think the full judgement of the case has been released yet, as always like to do to the direct court reports for these kinds of judgements, rather than news reports which can often pick certain lines from judges remarks and put a different slant on them.
However I think the purpose of the judgement today seems to have been over whether the Home Secretary is legally allowed to make decisions on whether someone can lose their citzenship or not, and the Court has agreed they can. The more interesting comments from the judge (as reported by the BBC)
"If asked to evaluate all the circumstances of Ms Begum's case, reasonable people with knowledge of all the relevant evidence will differ, in particular in relation to the issue of the extent to which her travel to Syria was voluntary and the weight to be given to that factor in the context of all others," said the judge.
"Likewise, reasonable people will differ as to the threat she posed in February 2019 to the national security of the United Kingdom, and as to how that threat should be balanced against all countervailing considerations.
"However, under our constitutional settlement these sensitive issues are for the secretary of state to evaluate and not for the commission."
In this case it was Sajid Javid who made the original decision, and I guess it all comes down to how much we trust we put in politicians to make the right decisions on our behalf. On the one hand you would hope they play it totally straight based on all the evidence presented to them, but with the governments track record on playing politics in all sorts of different areas of government, you are left with the feeling a different Home Secretary, in different political times could have made a different decision on this case
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Post by Pilch on Feb 22, 2023 16:27:27 GMT 1
if anything it sets a good benchmark to other 'kids' with 'ideas'
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Post by staffordshrew on Feb 22, 2023 16:33:19 GMT 1
The "she was a child" comment raises an interesting point of, admitted, "wharaboutery" in my mind. Those who committed one of the worst crimes committed by children, the Bulger murder, served a long senrence and then got new identities, time served for that offence, (though may be in for something else now).
This women was originally British? She should therefore face British law with an eventual rehabiitation.
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Post by Pilch on Feb 22, 2023 16:45:15 GMT 1
The "she was a child" comment raises an interesting point of, admitted, "wharaboutery" in my mind. Those who committed one of the worst crimes committed by children, the Bulger murder, served a long senrence and then got new identities, time served for that offence, (though may be in for something else now). This women was originally British? She should therefore face British law with an eventual rehabiitation. didn't she face British law today ? , and lost would you mind if we her back and found her a cosy place next door to you at our expense ? no thanks
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