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Post by venceremos on Feb 26, 2021 15:01:01 GMT 1
I don't know whether it was the 'right' decision because I'm not a lawyer, not even a saloon bar lawyer like some on here seem to be.
I agree with whoever said that at least some form of judicial process has occurred, rather than a politician (Sajid Javid) deciding she was no longer a UK citizen. I do however note that her lawyer said she was unable to make her case because she's detained by Syrian Kurds and not allowed access to a phone, on pain of a beating.
I don't know the legal rights and wrongs of this case and I'm not overly sympathetic towards Begum, and not sympathetic at all towards Isis. However, she was a 15 year old schoolgirl at the time and 15 year olds are prone to making bad mistakes. She's also had 3 children, all of whom have died, and is only 21 now. Has she killed anyone, or been involved in such actions? Let her stand trial for that if so but, if not, let's not load all Islamist terrorism's wrongdoings on her. She's not Osama Bin Laden.
She is or was a UK citizen and every bit as entitled to a fair hearing as you or I. That's one of the values we're supposed to be defending against Isis and their like. I'm not yet convinced that's happened and suspect this won't be the last we hear of this case.
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Post by staffordshrew on Feb 26, 2021 15:02:25 GMT 1
To stop arguments of bias, it's important that the full legal process is followed. She is/was British, so let's just do it right - by the courts.
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Drew
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Post by Drew on Feb 26, 2021 15:08:51 GMT 1
I do have some sympathy for her because she was a child. How many of us knew what the hell we were doing when we were 15? Saying that I'm also not that bothered that she won't be coming back.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Feb 26, 2021 15:24:56 GMT 1
Something no quite right in my mind. If she’d been a 15 year old white girl who’d been groomed and ended up in Syria with ISIS would everyone think the same? This is NOTHING do to with race. You must be new around here. By the by, this is what was reported in the Telegraph today... ...there had not been any public findings or allegations that Ms Begum was groomed or trafficked when she left to join the terror group in Syria.Not sure that is the case but perhaps there are questions as to whether she was groomed or just made the decision with her friends to travel out there. And as for the inevitable questions about race, I very doubt anyone would have been too happy to see Sally Jones return back to the UK either. And as for her age, surely an irrelevance. ISIS made sure everyone knew what they were up to, there was no doubt or confusion, not even for a 15 year old.
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Post by Feedo Gnasher on Feb 26, 2021 15:38:06 GMT 1
It’s hard to judge anything with even the slightest link to ISIS completely objectively, they’re a horrible group responsible for some of the worst atrocities of recent times. The Supreme Court have made their ruling, you won’t get too many disagreeing with it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2021 15:39:55 GMT 1
I do have some sympathy for her because she was a child. How many of us knew what the hell we were doing when we were 15? Saying that I'm also not that bothered that she won't be coming back. Hmmm, so what about 15 year old Greta Thunberg then, or was she just an exception as she did nice stuff or do you only fall back on age when evil is concerned. Begun knew what she was doing, still shows no remorse, let the evil **** stay where she is.
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Post by mattmw on Feb 26, 2021 15:40:32 GMT 1
Probably in a minority of one, but I’d prefer that she was brought back to the UK to be tried and if guilty is in prison here, rather than seemingly left to another country to sort out for us.
Radicalisation of young people for a range of causes and beliefs is a big issue in the UK and one we should deal with head on. This all feels like brushing it under the carpet and washing our hands of a complex problem
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Post by venceremos on Feb 26, 2021 15:42:12 GMT 1
I do have some sympathy for her because she was a child. How many of us knew what the hell we were doing when we were 15? Saying that I'm also not that bothered that she won't be coming back. Hmmm, so what about 15 year old Greta Thunberg then, or was she just an exception as she did nice stuff or do you only fall back on age when evil is concerned. Begun knew what she was doing, still shows no remorse, let the evil c*** stay where she is. Possibly the most ludicrous comparison ever made on b&a. Well done!
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Feb 26, 2021 15:56:19 GMT 1
Probably in a minority of one, but I’d prefer that she was brought back to the UK to be tried and if guilty is in prison here, rather than seemingly left to another country to sort Yes I guess you quite likely are in a minority of one.
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Post by martinshrew on Feb 26, 2021 16:16:19 GMT 1
Yes. This is NOTHING do to with race. So grooming white girls for sexual favours is an outrage and everything must be done to protect them but grooming brown girls for political/military purposes is the brown girl's problem? She made a decision to leave the UK with her friends. She wasn't forced into it. Totally different.
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Post by tdk on Feb 26, 2021 16:17:05 GMT 1
Yes. This is NOTHING do to with race. So grooming white girls for sexual favours is an outrage and everything must be done to protect them but grooming brown girls for political/military purposes is the brown girl's problem? I think being used for sex and supporting and enabling the committing of atrocities are very different things, and yes if she was white and from Shrewsbury I would think the same.
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Post by mattmw on Feb 26, 2021 16:17:51 GMT 1
Probably in a minority of one, but I’d prefer that she was brought back to the UK to be tried and if guilty is in prison here, rather than seemingly left to another country to sort Yes I guess you quite likely are in a minority of one. I normally am! One of the many downsides of being a Liberal 😃
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Post by venceremos on Feb 26, 2021 16:32:11 GMT 1
So grooming white girls for sexual favours is an outrage and everything must be done to protect them but grooming brown girls for political/military purposes is the brown girl's problem? She made a decision to leave the UK with her friends. She wasn't forced into it. Totally different. Grooming doesn't involve force. You could probably say one of those white girls made a decision to accept alcohol or whatever from those men. The point is these were all children at the time being led into something without apparently recognising the dangers and likely consequences. There are similarities.
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Post by venceremos on Feb 26, 2021 16:33:12 GMT 1
So grooming white girls for sexual favours is an outrage and everything must be done to protect them but grooming brown girls for political/military purposes is the brown girl's problem? I think being used for sex and supporting and enabling the committing of atrocities are very different things, and yes if she was white and from Shrewsbury I would think the same. The point is not what they were led into doing. It's that they were all children at the time.
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Post by Worthingshrew on Feb 26, 2021 16:45:02 GMT 1
Before people congratulate the Govt or Boris, is was the Supreme Court that made the decision.
Yes, she was only 15, but she and the other two girls were all intelligent people who knew exactly what they were doing, and were clever enough to organise their travel to Syria unknown to their families.
Right decision in my opinion.
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Post by martinshrew on Feb 26, 2021 16:56:15 GMT 1
I think being used for sex and supporting and enabling the committing of atrocities are very different things, and yes if she was white and from Shrewsbury I would think the same. The point is not what they were led into doing. It's that they were all children at the time. People like you genuinely make me sick. - Systematic rape of young white girls enforced physically & emotionally causing untold fear. - Three 15 year olds willingly making a trip half way across the world at their own free will to join a terrorist organisation. They are not and will not ever be the ****ing same. It's disgraceful of you to suggest otherwise. You carry on excusing the country wide abuse of our own young girls. Absolute wrongun.
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Post by mattmw on Feb 26, 2021 17:09:17 GMT 1
Apologies if I’ve missed it, but what real evidence has been given about how she came to leave the UK and travel to join ISIS? I’ve not seen the detail behind it just that “it was her choice”
Without it going to trial we’re all making assumptions on what that means.
In recent times I’ve been involved in some cases involving young people going off the rails and getting involved in county lines cases, and on the face of it young people have “chosen” to get involved. But when you get the full picture it’s clear a wider series of issues have contributed to that action.
I’m not saying that’s necessarily the case here, but would assume sufficient evidence was presented to the Court that no coercion occurred in this case
Around 400 people have returned to the UK and reintegrated into the community across the country, it’s interesting what makes this case so different
As others have said I’m more comfortable with the decision being taken by the Courts rather than the Home Secretary. It could well be there is evidence that can’t be put in the public domain that has backed up their decision
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Post by venceremos on Feb 26, 2021 17:13:29 GMT 1
Before people congratulate the Govt or Boris, is was the Supreme Court that made the decision. Yes, she was only 15, but she and the other two girls were all intelligent people who knew exactly what they were doing, and were clever enough to organise their travel to Syria unknown to their families. Right decision in my opinion. How do you know they knew exactly what they were doing? Do you know all they'd been told? Do you know their reasons for going? How can you be sure they had full knowledge of the circumstances and potential consequences? How can you know what went on during their radicalisation and what subsequent coercion there might have been? It takes no great cleverness to organise travel, especially not if others are helping you. I suspect many, probably most, people don't judge this case on its legal merits but on their own entirely negative perceptions of Isis (which I share). The fact that these children, as they then were, by definition couldn't have exercised adult judgment is then ignored. And then the justificatory excuses come in - they knew what they were doing, they were intelligent enough to have known etc etc. Were there no similarly "intelligent" and "aware" victims of sexual grooming gangs? Yet they have our full sympathy (rightly) while these girls are condemned outright. As I keep saying, I don't know the finer legal points of this but the key questions for me are whether Begum presents a current threat to anyone's well being and whether or not she committed or otherwise willingly participated in any criminal activity whilst with Isis. If the answers to these are no then it seems to me we might be punishing someone who's already suffered a great deal (3 dead children, losing her husband - who was reported to have been tortured by Isis, and being imprisoned) for a bad mistake made in childhood.
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Post by venceremos on Feb 26, 2021 17:17:35 GMT 1
The point is not what they were led into doing. It's that they were all children at the time. People like you genuinely make me sick. - Systematic rape of young white girls enforced physically & emotionally causing untold fear. - Three 15 year olds willingly making a trip half way across the world at their own free will to join a terrorist organisation. They are not and will not ever be the ****ing same. It's disgraceful of you to suggest otherwise. You carry on excusing the country wide abuse of our own young girls. Absolute wrongun. That personal abuse was completely uncalled for. Tell me where I've excused anything. I'm making a rational argument with which you disagree - that's fine. Your vitriolic personal attack says more about you than it does me.
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crayfish
Shropshire County League
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Post by crayfish on Feb 26, 2021 17:25:59 GMT 1
Probably in a minority of one, but I’d prefer that she was brought back to the UK to be tried and if guilty is in prison here, rather than seemingly left to another country to sort out for us. Radicalisation of young people for a range of causes and beliefs is a big issue in the UK and one we should deal with head on. This all feels like brushing it under the carpet and washing our hands of a complex But surely she couldn't be tried in the UK for crimes committed in Syria. I can't think of an example of a Briton being tried in this country for crimes committed abroad. Can you give me an example of this happening.
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Post by davycrockett on Feb 26, 2021 17:40:40 GMT 1
So grooming white girls for sexual favours is an outrage and everything must be done to protect them but grooming brown girls for political/military purposes is the brown girl's problem? I think being used for sex and supporting and enabling the committing of atrocities are very different things, and yes if she was white and from Shrewsbury I would think the same. What age do you think we should hold children responsible for making that wrong decision (without a trial) ? 12? 13? 15?
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Post by champagneprince on Feb 26, 2021 18:36:32 GMT 1
The Supreme Court will have considered all factors,including age, carefully.
Its the Supreme Court!
They have decided, and decided unanimously, that she will not come back to the UK.
They would not have made that decision lightly.
We may never know what the evidence was that helped them come to the decision, but we can be sure it wasnt made on a whim.
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Post by mattmw on Feb 26, 2021 18:36:48 GMT 1
Probably in a minority of one, but I’d prefer that she was brought back to the UK to be tried and if guilty is in prison here, rather than seemingly left to another country to sort out for us. Radicalisation of young people for a range of causes and beliefs is a big issue in the UK and one we should deal with head on. This all feels like brushing it under the carpet and washing our hands of a complex But surely she couldn't be tried in the UK for crimes committed in Syria. I can't think of an example of a Briton being tried in this country for crimes committed abroad. Can you give me an example of this happening. The difficulty with the case is we don’t know she committed any crimes in Syria either, she certainly hasn’t been charged with any, nor has she in the UK The reason she was stripped of UK citizenship is via something called the British Nationality Act 1981, where the Secretary of State is satisfied that this is ‘conducive to the public good’. And in this case the Home Secretary alluded to security concerns should she return to the UK which points to potentially some involvement in domestic terrorism. So in effect she has been left stateless in Syria with no signs of a trial taking place there either Elsewhere around 400 people who went to Syria have been returned to the UK and some faced trial with others allowed to go back into wider society. It’s not overly clear why these two options got ruled out by the Home Secretary, with this case
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Post by tdk on Feb 26, 2021 18:47:46 GMT 1
I think being used for sex and supporting and enabling the committing of atrocities are very different things, and yes if she was white and from Shrewsbury I would think the same. What age do you think we should hold children responsible for making that wrong decision (without a trial) ? 12? 13? 15? The age of criminal responsibility in England and Wales is 10 years old. This means that children under 10 can't be arrested or charged with a crime.
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Post by mattmw on Feb 26, 2021 18:52:56 GMT 1
The Supreme Court will have considered all factors,including age, carefully. Its the Supreme Court! They have decided, and decided unanimously, that she will not come back to the UK. They would not have made that decision lightly. We may never know what the evidence was that helped them come to the decision, but we can be sure it wasnt made on a whim. That’s not actually what they decided
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2021 19:04:50 GMT 1
Begum cannot take part in an appeal because she is overseas and in a difficult situation . What the Supreme Court has ruled is that her entire case must now be paused until she can find some way of taking part . The question is whether or not this will ever happen .
I would like to see her return to this Country , to face whatever charges are laid before the Courts and to be judged , fairly and unequivocally. This is what we do in a civilised society and it is how we are judged .
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Post by SeanBroseley on Feb 26, 2021 19:10:57 GMT 1
I saw an amusing take on this on twitter (a rare enough event in itself regardless of the subject matter): "You know what is amusing to me? Adults that cannot speak up to their manager when they're unhappy, yet expecting a 15 year old girl to easily be able to resist the manipulation of a global terrorist organisation with millions worth of resources. A lot of you aren't very smart."
That's about the height of it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2021 19:34:48 GMT 1
The only British value we should be concerned about here is the 'Rule of Law'.
It isn't about race was you consider Samantha Lewthwaite was once 'the most wanted'. Of course race becomes an issue when Muslims of another colour get profiled, or sum such.
Whether people like it or not her age will be a factor after when it comes to an appeal. At 15 she is classed under law as vulerbale.
The 'rule of law' applies to everyone, not just people we want to.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2021 19:37:32 GMT 1
I saw an amusing take on this on twitter (a rare enough event in itself regardless of the subject matter): "You know what is amusing to me? Adults that cannot speak up to their manager when they're unhappy, yet expecting a 15 year old girl to easily be able to resist the manipulation of a global terrorist organisation with millions worth of resources. A lot of you aren't very smart." That's about the height of it. Did she know where the off switch was for the social media that encouraged her, not like she was stood in front of her dragging kicking and screaming eh...
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Post by Pilch on Feb 26, 2021 19:44:56 GMT 1
I saw an amusing take on this on twitter (a rare enough event in itself regardless of the subject matter): "You know what is amusing to me? Adults that cannot speak up to their manager when they're unhappy, yet expecting a 15 year old girl to easily be able to resist the manipulation of a global terrorist organisation with millions worth of resources. A lot of you aren't very smart." That's about the height of it. not sure if you'd mind her living next door to you but if she was she would still be too close to me for my liking
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