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Post by pughywasfree on Jun 21, 2021 16:14:41 GMT 1
People die, without an autopsy we'll never know the reason for his death. Are you aware that most deaths aren't followed by a post-mortem? This was true before the pandemic as well as since. It doesn't mean the cause of death is unknown. As that article is implying that he died from covid it is only fair to state that its not possible to know without an autopsy. Just because he had covid when he died does not mean he died from covid.
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Post by pughywasfree on Jun 21, 2021 16:15:56 GMT 1
Don’t want to orchestrate a pile on one persons opinions, especially given recent problems on the board, but it staggers me that after the last 15 months anybody can hold the opinions recently posted on this thread. Pile on, I've got thick skin. It's only healthy debate at the end of the day.
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Post by pughywasfree on Jun 21, 2021 16:19:57 GMT 1
So many people desperate for an experimental jab that they don't need. I really don't get it. If you mean younger people like yourself then I can kind of understand the position, I’ve had it but it’s more to do with doing my duty as opposed to saving myself. Whether we should be made to feel like it’s our civic duty to get injected is another issue, but I was happy to do it to save others and play my part in unlocking the country. If you mean all people in general then I couldn’t disagree more with your statement as there’s more than enough evidence now to suggest it saves lives. I'll admit my view of people celebrating getting the jab comes from younger people who would most likely not have died from covid anyway. By doing your duty what do you mean? Having the jab doesn't stop you contracting or spreading covid so the only thing the jab does is lessen the symptoms of the individual who has had the vaccine. If all the vulnerable people have been vaccinated who exactly are you saving by doing your bit?
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Post by Valerioch on Jun 21, 2021 16:26:58 GMT 1
If you mean younger people like yourself then I can kind of understand the position, I’ve had it but it’s more to do with doing my duty as opposed to saving myself. Whether we should be made to feel like it’s our civic duty to get injected is another issue, but I was happy to do it to save others and play my part in unlocking the country. If you mean all people in general then I couldn’t disagree more with your statement as there’s more than enough evidence now to suggest it saves lives. I'll admit my view of people celebrating getting the jab comes from younger people who would most likely not have died from covid anyway. By doing your duty what do you mean? Having the jab doesn't stop you contracting or spreading covid so the only thing the jab does is lessen the symptoms of the individual who has had the vaccine. If all the vulnerable people have been vaccinated who exactly are you saving by doing your bit? This is factually incorrect - vaccines do help stop you catch it, therefore stop you spreading it www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-what-you-need-to-knowAn effective vaccine will protect someone who receives it by lowering the chance of getting COVID-19 if the person encounters the coronavirus. More important is whether the vaccine prevents serious illness, hospitalization and death. At this time, all three vaccines are highly efficacious at preventing serious illness, hospitalization and death from COVID-19. Widespread vaccination means the coronavirus will not infect as many people. This will limit spread through communities and will restrict the virus’s opportunity to continue to mutate into new variants.
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Post by venceremos on Jun 21, 2021 16:34:31 GMT 1
I'm not here to have a go at you but some things leap out from your post. If adverse reactions to the vaccination are being "hidden in the media", as you put it, how do you know about them? Facebook groups? Seriously, how do you know those sources of information are verified and trustworthy? Saying Covid is serious for a minority of people is like saying heart disease, or specific cancers, or war, or terrorism, or traffic accidents are serious for a minority of people. Most people won't die from any one of those things but that doesn't mean they're not serious for everyone. It doesn't mean we don't all have a responsibility to take preventative measures for the benefit of everyone else, as well as possibly ourselves. You're an intelligent person, you know viruses are transmitted by hosts who might themselves suffer no, or minimal, symptoms. Does that mean the virus isn't serious, even though it might kill or seriously damage a person catching it from someone who's asymptomatic? OK, you've turned off the news. Perhaps you should also turn off social media and the nonsensical conspiracy theories and disinformation that spreads like wildfire on there and that you seem to be following. Talk to some health professionals who've spent the past 15 months treating people, many of whom will have contracted the virus from someone like you, who thought Covid wasn't serious for them, and many of whom will have died. Then come back and tell us whether or not you think it's serious. I know some of the adverse reactions due to the yellow card reporting system which have been examined and reported on in a clear manner. Here is an example. www.e-bmc.co.uk/You don't see information like that in the MSM. By serious for the minority I refer to the people that were classed as high risk. If you're relatively healthy, not obese and under 60 then you have a miniscule chance of suffering serious complications from covid 19. I might question the severity of covid and the safety of the vaccine but I am not trying to say we should put our fingers up to those at risk from covid. They should be protected but the methods need to be realistic. Now that every single person who is classed as high risk has been vaccinated (where possible) I really don't see the need for continued restrictions, the scaremongering and the constant properganda to convince everyone that we need the vaccine. The government and media are now conditioning people into believing that the lives of our children should be put at risk. I'll add for context,I have had my children vaccinated with all the standard vaccines that have been extensively trailed. I know of the yellow card system and have looked at this myself, as my wife is suffering from what could be an adverse reaction to the vaccination she had some time ago. I don't know what "MSM" you look at but I've seen plenty of this reported - did you miss all the stuff about blood clotting, for instance? Evidently, you did. You don't need a tiny, one director company in Gloucestershire to tell you about the yellow card system when the NHS itself does so. In common with others of your view, you ignore the point about asymptomatic transmission. It seems to be all about the individual for you - if I'm not high risk then I shouldn't have to take preventative measures. Do you have no sense of a wider responsibility to those who are higher risk than you? Over 60s, obese (25% of the population), other health issues (we all have them, even though we might not yet be aware of them) - that's a hell of a big minority of people, if not the majority. How is it unrealistic to ask people to be vaccinated with something that's caused a very small minority of adverse reactions, most of them not serious? Or to wear a mask in an indoor public space? I understand your concerns for your children and that's a decision parents must make. But don't dismiss as "scaremongering" the desire to contain this lethal virus.
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Post by venceremos on Jun 21, 2021 16:41:12 GMT 1
Are you aware that most deaths aren't followed by a post-mortem? This was true before the pandemic as well as since. It doesn't mean the cause of death is unknown. As that article is implying that he died from covid it is only fair to state that its not possible to know without an autopsy. Just because he had covid when he died does not mean he died from covid. The people who treated him believe that he died of Covid. Do you question the medical professionals when someone dies of a different disease and, as in most cases, there's no post-mortem? They've seen the symptoms, reviewed his medical history, seen how the disease progressed, seen how the man died - sometimes, it really is possible to know.
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Post by pughywasfree on Jun 21, 2021 16:41:56 GMT 1
I'll admit my view of people celebrating getting the jab comes from younger people who would most likely not have died from covid anyway. By doing your duty what do you mean? Having the jab doesn't stop you contracting or spreading covid so the only thing the jab does is lessen the symptoms of the individual who has had the vaccine. If all the vulnerable people have been vaccinated who exactly are you saving by doing your bit? This is factually incorrect - vaccines do help stop you catch it, therefore stop you spreading it www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-what-you-need-to-knowAn effective vaccine will protect someone who receives it by lowering the chance of getting COVID-19 if the person encounters the coronavirus. More important is whether the vaccine prevents serious illness, hospitalization and death. At this time, all three vaccines are highly efficacious at preventing serious illness, hospitalization and death from COVID-19. Widespread vaccination means the coronavirus will not infect as many people. This will limit spread through communities and will restrict the virus’s opportunity to continue to mutate into new variants. It wasn't incorrect. It doesn't stop you catching it or passing it on. The effectivness of reducing transmition is still debated but it definitely doesn't stop it completely.
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Post by belfastshrew on Jun 21, 2021 16:43:37 GMT 1
There's not very much trust for any politician at the moment after the Brexit debacle. Scaremongering is a word often used these days, Project Fear etc.
Just be sensible and do what you think is right. Most have followed that mantra and now we are at the arse end of this pandemic.
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Post by Valerioch on Jun 21, 2021 16:46:01 GMT 1
This is factually incorrect - vaccines do help stop you catch it, therefore stop you spreading it www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-what-you-need-to-knowAn effective vaccine will protect someone who receives it by lowering the chance of getting COVID-19 if the person encounters the coronavirus. More important is whether the vaccine prevents serious illness, hospitalization and death. At this time, all three vaccines are highly efficacious at preventing serious illness, hospitalization and death from COVID-19. Widespread vaccination means the coronavirus will not infect as many people. This will limit spread through communities and will restrict the virus’s opportunity to continue to mutate into new variants. It wasn't incorrect. It doesn't stop you catching it or passing it on. The effectivness of reducing transmition is still debated but it definitely doesn't stop it completely. Little in life is 100%, but the vaccines are roughly 80% effective protection from catching Covid, and near 100% effective from severe illness or death. There's research all over the internet to support this, and also real world data now. If you genuinely believe that i'd urge you to look at real world data. Our recent rise in Delta variant cases, is almost all amongst those who haven't had 2 jabs, and the 18-30 group. It's not a coincidence. Vaccines work, they stop you potentially catching it 8/10 times, and stop you potentially getting seriously ill from it almost 10/10 times
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Post by pughywasfree on Jun 21, 2021 17:22:32 GMT 1
It wasn't incorrect. It doesn't stop you catching it or passing it on. The effectivness of reducing transmition is still debated but it definitely doesn't stop it completely. Little in life is 100%, but the vaccines are roughly 80% effective protection from catching Covid, and near 100% effective from severe illness or death. There's research all over the internet to support this, and also real world data now. If you genuinely believe that i'd urge you to look at real world data. Our recent rise in Delta variant cases, is almost all amongst those who haven't had 2 jabs, and the 18-30 group. It's not a coincidence. Vaccines work, they stop you potentially catching it 8/10 times, and stop you potentially getting seriously ill from it almost 10/10 times I'm not trying dispute the effectiveness of the vaccine. The drop in deaths could have been because of the vaccine, it could have been because we have come out of flu season or it could have been the fact the WHO changed its advice on how to use pcr tests from 45 cycles to a normal amount (which meant less false positives. Less covid cases = less covid deaths). My issue is with the safety of the vaccine. The minipulation of the figures and the constant lies by the authorities, add to that the fact it's only been granted emergency use and the trails are not due to finish for another 2 years makes me nurvous. How can I trust them that the vaccine is safe? Now I am willing to carry on with safety measures I feel are appropriate to avoid catching and passing on covid but when it comes to injecting myself with an experimental jab for someone else's benifit I'm sorry but I draw the line. That might make me selfish but I have suffered for the last 18 months for strangers. The vulnerable are now vaccinated so I fail to see why I should put myself at risk.
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Jun 21, 2021 17:26:43 GMT 1
I might question the severity of covid and the safety of the vaccine but I am not trying to say we should put our fingers up to those at risk from covid. They should be protected but the methods need to be realistic. Now that every single person who is classed as high risk has been vaccinated (where possible) I really don't see the need for continued restrictions, the scaremongering and the constant properganda to convince everyone that we need the vaccine. The government and media are now conditioning people into believing that the lives of our children should be put at risk. [/quote]
I have to say I totally agree with this part of your post 100%
We have to move quickly now to living a normal life with it. But I was saying the same 12 months ago.
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Post by Valerioch on Jun 21, 2021 19:24:00 GMT 1
Little in life is 100%, but the vaccines are roughly 80% effective protection from catching Covid, and near 100% effective from severe illness or death. There's research all over the internet to support this, and also real world data now. If you genuinely believe that i'd urge you to look at real world data. Our recent rise in Delta variant cases, is almost all amongst those who haven't had 2 jabs, and the 18-30 group. It's not a coincidence. Vaccines work, they stop you potentially catching it 8/10 times, and stop you potentially getting seriously ill from it almost 10/10 times I'm not trying dispute the effectiveness of the vaccine. The drop in deaths could have been because of the vaccine, it could have been because we have come out of flu season or it could have been the fact the WHO changed its advice on how to use pcr tests from 45 cycles to a normal amount (which meant less false positives. Less covid cases = less covid deaths). My issue is with the safety of the vaccine. The minipulation of the figures and the constant lies by the authorities, add to that the fact it's only been granted emergency use and the trails are not due to finish for another 2 years makes me nurvous. How can I trust them that the vaccine is safe? Now I am willing to carry on with safety measures I feel are appropriate to avoid catching and passing on covid but when it comes to injecting myself with an experimental jab for someone else's benifit I'm sorry but I draw the line. That might make me selfish but I have suffered for the last 18 months for strangers. The vulnerable are now vaccinated so I fail to see why I should put myself at risk. Ive had the jab, and would encourage everyone to do so. But I certainly won’t be calling you selfish (not that your care if I did). Younger folk have given up 18 months of their lives for something that very rarely effects them. A tremendous effort
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Post by belfastshrew on Jun 21, 2021 19:35:45 GMT 1
Younger folk have given up 18 months of their lives for something that very rarely effects them. A tremendous effort A nice way of looking at it. Congrats to everyone indeed. Now we have got CV out the way...lets get back to the important things like pulling down statues and burning those pesky 5G towers!
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Post by neilsalop on Jun 21, 2021 19:53:37 GMT 1
There are numerous reason that the Flu has had such a tiny impact this year. Mask wearing, social distancing, isolating and hand washing/sanitising have obviously played a significant part in reducing the spread. The huge amount of people from lower ages that the Flu jab helped too, but another major contributor was the amount of people that would have been particularly susceptible had already been struck down with Covid before the Flu season started. Put all of these things together and it is obvious to anyone that the Flu cases and deaths would be down substantially.
Even when things do eventually get back to something approaching normality I will still be taking extra care around large amounts of people and in certain circumstances I will be prepared to stick a mask back on. I'm double vaccinated and am reasonably healthy, so even on the off chance that I did get it I would probably not be too adversely affected, but my parents might and being in their 80s will, even after two jabs, be a lot more vulnerable than I am to any effects.
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Post by venceremos on Jun 21, 2021 20:18:04 GMT 1
Just like to say, kudos to pughywasfree, you have my respect for handling a difficult discussion in such a calm and measured way, particularly as you were on your own on your side of it. That's not easy. We disagree quite fundamentally on this topic but that's no reason we can't have a civilised discussion, even if there's a bit of heat in it now and again.
I wish B&A was always like that.
PS I do appreciate your position as a parent. Children aren't able to give informed consent and the vaccine hasn't gone through all stages of clinical testing yet, albeit of necessity.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 23, 2021 18:56:14 GMT 1
We got called in a day early and we have just had first jab of the Pfizer vaccine. Second one now in six weeks time.👍
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Shrewsfan1985
The Loggerheads
Posts: 23,901
My first team is..: Shrewsbury
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Post by Shrewsfan1985 on Jun 26, 2021 2:03:45 GMT 1
In my opinion I have to say that I am very impressed with the speed that the NHS have rolled out the vaccine and they have managed to get through all of the age groups before the 31st July.
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Shrewsfan1985
The Loggerheads
Posts: 23,901
My first team is..: Shrewsbury
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Post by Shrewsfan1985 on Jul 1, 2021 2:09:42 GMT 1
The NHS has been given the green light to start planning a Covid vaccine booster programme in the UK ahead of this winter. A bigger flu season than normal is expected, meaning extra protection against Covid is likely to be needed. More than 30 million of the most vulnerable should receive a third dose, vaccine experts are advising. They will include all adults aged 50 and over, and anyone younger who qualifies for a flu jab. www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57667987
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