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Post by salop27 on Aug 2, 2019 8:23:52 GMT 1
Interesting indeed. Labour are now in a bigger mess then the Conservatives over Brexit.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2019 8:48:08 GMT 1
I'm sure it's feasible that some Labour voters, voted for the 'remain alliance' like some Tories voted for the Brexit Party, but as I understand it, Labour hasn't been strong in that area for years. It's usually a Lib Dem stronghold.
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Post by zenfootball2 on Aug 2, 2019 9:54:19 GMT 1
the liberal democrats held this seat from 1997 to 2015 and the brexit party spliting the conservative vote will have helped as well.whilst this is not a traditional labour seat a candidate nearly losing there deposit and coming fourth is not great either.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Aug 2, 2019 12:05:23 GMT 1
Interesting indeed. Labour are now in a bigger mess then the Conservatives over Brexit. Perhaps going the same way Scotland did... How the Left lost Wales
Not so sure its lost as yet but its losing support there by the looks. Yesterday saw Labour pick up just 1,680 votes. Only just avoided losing its deposit. According to some Lib Dem source, they did not believe this was the result of tactical voting but of genuine anti-Corbyn sentiment. People were bringing up Corbyn unprompted on the doorstep. Lib Dems filling their boots as a result...  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2019 12:10:00 GMT 1
The left has lost wales?
When did this happen? Far as I knew the left party currently have 28 of the 40 mps in the country...
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Post by venceremos on Aug 2, 2019 12:23:49 GMT 1
Well done on completely missing the point. The hypocrisy is in denying that money is available for vital public services when challenged over this but then magically finding billions of pounds as as when it suits their purposes to do so. At the same time criticising the opposition for their funding plans and referencing 'magic money trees'. At some point in time brexit will free up extra money for public services. People did not vote to leave the EU for financial gain. Simplistic nonsense. Your corner shop economics assumes we'll be better off because our net contribution to the EU will stop. If the economy doesn't grow as quickly as it otherwise would (never mind recession), then there'll be lower tax revenues than would otherwise have been the case. The choice then will be higher taxes, increased borrowing, reduced spending or a combination of these. Once again, you're claiming to know the basis on which people voted leave. They'll have voted leave for a variety of reasons but, if you look back at what was being said at the time, you'll find a lot of references from leavers to the sunny economic uplands presented by the brexit opportunity. Denying that is simply an attempt to airbrush history for your own convenience. I'm pretty sure of one thing - 17.4 million people didn't all vote leave in the expectation that they'd become poorer. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2019 12:26:44 GMT 1
The left has lost wales? When did this happen? Far as I knew the left party currently have 28 of the 40 mps in the country... Yeah, I mean, some folk think that the left is only Labour. Anyway I can't help thinking that if the Brexit Party had put the interests of the country first and stood down, the Tories would have won this seat. But, there you go. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2019 12:31:08 GMT 1
The brexit party did well, but will ultimately go the same way as ukip and get beaten by the raving looney party ( that’s the real RLP not the tories)
Bad night for labour.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Aug 2, 2019 12:35:29 GMT 1
The left has lost wales? When did this happen? Far as I knew the left party currently have 28 of the 40 mps in the country... But unlike Jane Dodds, I suspect the majority of them weren't elected yesterday. Weren't the majority of them elected in 2017? The point being that things have changed since then (looking to the latest polls anyhow). Polls show that Labour are losing support in Wales. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2019 12:50:34 GMT 1
The left has lost wales? When did this happen? Far as I knew the left party currently have 28 of the 40 mps in the country... Yeah, I mean, some folk think that the left is only Labour. Anyway I can't help thinking that if the Brexit Party had put the interests of the country first and stood down, the Tories would have won this seat. But, there you go. I'm also sure the real story here is of course labours momumental vote collapse in a constituency they haven't done well in since the 70's and avoiding the precedent of labours voting regularly collapsing in tory/lib dem by elections seats... Conservatives lost a seat? Nvm. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2019 14:19:32 GMT 1
Yeah, I mean, some folk think that the left is only Labour. Anyway I can't help thinking that if the Brexit Party had put the interests of the country first and stood down, the Tories would have won this seat. But, there you go. I'm also sure the real story here is of course labours momumental vote collapse in a constituency they haven't done well in since the 70's and avoiding the precedent of labours voting regularly collapsing in tory/lib dem by elections seats... Conservatives lost a seat? Nvm. Yep, looking at some media outlets, you would think this had been a Labour strong hold. The lods of the Labour vote can be explained in lots of ways. Not doubt there is an anti-Corbyn element. Anyway, the real story is how a remain alliance might work. |
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Post by venceremos on Aug 2, 2019 15:12:15 GMT 1
The left has lost wales? When did this happen? Far as I knew the left party currently have 28 of the 40 mps in the country... But unlike Jane Dodds, I suspect the majority of them weren't elected yesterday. Weren't the majority of them elected in 2017? The point being that things have changed since then (looking to the latest polls anyhow). Polls show that Labour are losing support in Wales. Hmmm, things have changed since 2017, you say. I wonder how much more might have changed since 2016?  |
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Post by martinshrew on Aug 2, 2019 15:40:58 GMT 1
The left has lost wales? When did this happen? Far as I knew the left party currently have 28 of the 40 mps in the country... Yeah, I mean, some folk think that the left is only Labour. Anyway I can't help thinking that if the Brexit Party had put the interests of the country first and stood down, the Tories would have won this seat. But, there you go. Quite right, Boris & Nigel went head to head whilst Lib Dims, Plaid & the greens came together. It's a leave council, but the two leave parties didn't club together. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2019 18:59:15 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2019 20:15:00 GMT 1
Rubbish The rest of the political class and us minority have every right to expect a decent deal to be negotiated by those in power.... this didn’t happen hence the PM having to beg for extensions.... you allude to this in your next statement ‘by the weak leader in Mrs May’ I’ll remind you she’s the leader of your party! Now your drooling over Boris the Bafoon who’ll do anything for his own benefit.... You can make everyone happy (ish) by negociating a decent deal or us and the EU but that doesn’t look likely after the Torres have ****ed up, wasted 3 years and now voted Boris in to sort it in 3 months 🤣🤣🤣 So glad that you find it amusing.
Personally I find it anything but funny. Your party had the chance to bring the country together and make a decent fist of Brexit, but instead decided to split into factions fighting for control of the party and to hell with running the country in the interests of the population.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2019 22:43:42 GMT 1
So glad that you find it amusing.
Personally I find it anything but funny. Your party had the chance to bring the country together and make a decent fist of Brexit, but instead decided to split into factions fighting for control of the party and to hell with running the country in the interests of the population.
🤣🤣🤣👌 |
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Post by staffordshrew on Aug 2, 2019 22:58:58 GMT 1
So glad that you find it amusing.
Personally I find it anything but funny. Your party had the chance to bring the country together and make a decent fist of Brexit, but instead decided to split into factions fighting for control of the party and to hell with running the country in the interests of the population.
🤣🤣🤣👌 Maggie must be turning in her grave at what the Conservative party has become. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2019 23:08:19 GMT 1
Maggie must be turning in her grave at what the Conservative party has become. [ She isn’t in a grave , she’s on a spit being turned in the perpetual fires of hell . |
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Post by staffordshrew on Aug 2, 2019 23:16:26 GMT 1
Maggie must be turning in her grave at what the Conservative party has become. [ She isn’t in a grave , she’s on a spit being turned in the perpetual fires of hell . But even I would admit she had more thought for her Country, misguided in the way she did it maybe. Something back in her more modest upbringing than these old Etonion chumps perhaps. Not that I am saying Downie is an old Etonion of course. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 12:55:26 GMT 1
Why should the EU re-open negotiations, when all Boris and his supporters have been saying for months is no-deal? Apparantly we as a country have decided that we want a clean, quick, no-deal Brexit and it has to done by the end of October. I really can't see why Barclay is insisting that the EU come to us cap in hand and ask for a new deal. The only reasonable explanation is that when the EU tell us to do one, Boris can claim that no-deal is all the EUs fault and he tried everything to avoid it. Problem is the gullible masses will fall for it, because it will be on the front pages of the S*n, Mail and Express and all of the TV news reports (execpt possibly Channel 4, as they do seem to have at least some journalistic integrity left).
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Post by staffordshrew on Aug 5, 2019 15:35:41 GMT 1
Democracy? Not with this lot in charge. But I am sure parliament will come up with something to stop these lunatics taking the country out "no deal"
How dare they interpret a leave vote as a "no deal" leave vote, three years on. They dare because all they know is "mis-information"
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Aug 5, 2019 16:31:00 GMT 1
The EU has to do what is best for the EU. The UK has to do what is best for the UK (and please no nonsense about this is not what is best for the UK, both sides clearly see that differently ). So why should the EU reopen negotiations. And why should the UK accept an agreement that it clearly doesn't find acceptable. Its been voted down enough times by MP's so clearly its not acceptable to the UK and its never going to pass through parliament. So if the EU aren't open to reopening the negotiations then clearly, if the government means to implement the result of the referendum (which is exactly what it said it would do), then there is clearly only one outcome. The UK will leave without an agreement. So we have the backstop included to avoid a 'hard' border in Ireland, yet it's inclusion is likely to bring about just that. Go figure. Mind you, even with the backstop addressed I think it would be difficult to get the agreement through Parliament. For a good few many MP's, no agreement would be acceptable...  I mean we do need to be careful with the terminology here, if it comes to it then we might well be leaving without an agreement. The 'deal' is yet to be agreed upon. As in what our future relationship would be between the UK and EU, all that is still to be decided. They're going to have to get to it sharpish if and when it does come about, more so if no agreement is in place. |
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Aug 5, 2019 16:34:02 GMT 1
Democracy? Not with this lot in charge. But I am sure parliament will come up with something to stop these lunatics taking the country out "no deal" How dare they interpret a leave vote as a "no deal" leave vote, three years on. They dare because all they know is "mis-information" There will be a 'deal'. What is being negotiated now is a withdrawal agreement. What happens during the time the 'deal' is being negotiate. The withdrawal agreement is not the deal that determines the EU and UK future relationship. Only the transition period. I do wonder at times whether people appreciate this... |
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Post by staffordshrew on Aug 5, 2019 16:46:39 GMT 1
Democracy? Not with this lot in charge. But I am sure parliament will come up with something to stop these lunatics taking the country out "no deal" How dare they interpret a leave vote as a "no deal" leave vote, three years on. They dare because all they know is "mis-information" There will be a 'deal'. What is being negotiated now is a withdrawal agreement. What happens during the time the 'deal' is being negotiate. The withdrawal agreement is not the deal that determines the EU and UK future relationship. Only the transition period. I do wonder at times whether people appreciate this... No deal at 31 October does leave us rather in the poo on 1 November though. Plus the possibility of the current load of misfits running the show on our side for the next phase. It might also be too late to confirm leaving with the electorate in a democratic vote as to if we actually want to proceed. Though, if it suits the EU, there might be a surprise move that scuppers Boris and Co's jumping off the cliff on 31 October. |
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Post by martinshrew on Aug 5, 2019 16:50:37 GMT 1
There will be a 'deal'. What is being negotiated now is a withdrawal agreement. What happens during the time the 'deal' is being negotiate. The withdrawal agreement is not the deal that determines the EU and UK future relationship. Only the transition period. I do wonder at times whether people appreciate this... It might also be too late to confirm leaving with the electorate in a democratic vote as to if we actually want to proceed. We had a democratic vote on 23rd June 2016, the result of which is yet to be implemented. What's the cause for another? |
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Post by staffordshrew on Aug 5, 2019 17:00:31 GMT 1
It might also be too late to confirm leaving with the electorate in a democratic vote as to if we actually want to proceed. We had a democratic vote on 23rd June 2016, the result of which is yet to be implemented. What's the cause for another? Said it the other week: When you buy a house the majority of the family have to want to buy it with two stages, saying you want to buy it (sold, subject to contract) with the majority of the family confirming they still want to buy it, when more details about the deal are known, before signing the contract. For the country this is just as important a step. |
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Aug 5, 2019 18:04:37 GMT 1
There will be a 'deal'. What is being negotiated now is a withdrawal agreement. What happens during the time the 'deal' is being negotiate. The withdrawal agreement is not the deal that determines the EU and UK future relationship. Only the transition period. I do wonder at times whether people appreciate this... No deal at 31 October does leave us rather in the poo on 1 November though. Plus the possibility of the current load of misfits running the show on our side for the next phase. It might also be too late to confirm leaving with the electorate in a democratic vote as to if we actually want to proceed. Though, if it suits the EU, there might be a surprise move that scuppers Boris and Co's jumping of the cliff on 31 October. Could be. To what extent, who knows. I mean I'm pretty sure the EU have already stated that they are ready for no deal. We hear the same messages from the UK. Under Johnson these preparations seem to have been ramped up. Despite the standoff and the words coming from both camps, both sides what this handled with the least disruption as possible. |
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Post by percy on Aug 6, 2019 7:11:05 GMT 1
Watching this from a distance now. Just cannot believe the situation. Political games to avoid a democratic debate.
Watch the exchange rates for how the market feels - £:€ will go closer and closer to parity until a no deal is announced - then it will go to 0.9or rebound to 1.20 if article 50 is revoked. These are not just numbers on a computer screen, they will adversely affect everyone in the UK.
Tories know that “no deal” is bad for the country, know that “no deal” would not pass in the commons, know that “no deal” would not pass a public vote; BUT they also know that if they fail to deliver any kind of Brexit before the next election they will likely lose their own jobs.
So they are prepared to sell everyone down the swanny to stay on their own little ego trips /gravy train for 2 years more. How can this be democracy ?
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Post by staffordshrew on Aug 6, 2019 9:30:44 GMT 1
There may be a bit of bad news for those self serving leave at any costs MPs. I think the public, at least those not wearing blinkers, can see what's going on and will be looking for an alternative when an election does come up. Only thing that will save them is if they are in a seat where a monkey with a Tory rosette would win. But will that be enough?
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Post by salop27 on Aug 6, 2019 10:22:31 GMT 1
This is democracy in action. At last the referendum result is going to be implemented. Referendum vote was to leave, general election both biggest parties stood on a manifesto to leave and European elections the three leave parties picked up most seats.
Likely hood is a general election in November so no one can moan at anything being undemocratic.
You might not like the results of the above but that's something different.
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