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Post by salop27 on Jul 17, 2019 13:38:10 GMT 1
Interesting mix of replies as normal!
My general point was there will be an opportunity for locals/students/retired people to fill these jobs now. Labour shortage equals more money offered and better conditions so the chance will be there,if people want to improve there lot.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 17, 2019 13:46:27 GMT 1
Well lets just see what comes about at the next election when it comes about. It'll be interesting to see what happens. But clearly many people believe this will have an impact on who will look to vote Labour in the coming years. And that includes those within Labour itself. I mean it's not rocket science is it... Labour: party of the middle classCome the next GE though I'm sure many 'interesting' things will happen. Great. So we agree. And one of the things I'm interested to see is the impact Labour's Brexit stance will have on its support amongst the working class, within those Midlands and Northern towns that have voted Labour previously but voted leave in the referendum. 👍 |
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 17, 2019 13:57:40 GMT 1
Its all good.  Its such attitudes, shared by many within this new new Labour, that have seen many of the working class looking elsewhere for their representation (and who can blame them). I mean when I dip into this thread its a constant reminder as to why so many have been turned off by Labour and certain sections of the 'left', whether that is set to continue now Labour are officially a remain party remains to be seen of course; but it'll be interesting how that may further impact on their support. 👍 Is that your view or that of your friends and family living here? I'll tell you what, I'll be sure to add a disclaimer or something other in my future posts if they happen to be expressing an opinion other than my own. Would that help? |
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Post by venceremos on Jul 17, 2019 14:02:35 GMT 1
Interesting mix of replies as normal! My general point was there will be an opportunity for locals/students/retired people to fill these jobs now. Labour shortage equals more money offered and better conditions so the chance will be there,if people want to improve there lot. First it was labour quotas, now it's higher wages and better working conditions. All hail salop27 and his new-found socialism! Of course, "more money offered" would mean higher prices or, more likely, farmers worse off, diversifying away from growing these crops and greater reliance on imports (which, under no deal, WTO rules, will be subject to tariffs, so higher prices again). I spent three summers working in the fields as a teenager and thoroughly enjoyed it. Our woeful rural public transport infrastructure hinders non-car owners in doing it though. I doubt that many retired people would have the desire and/or physical capability to do it. And as for "improving your lot" well, yeah, have you ever worked as a fruit or vegetable picker and, if you did, was that your sole source of income? |
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Post by venceremos on Jul 17, 2019 14:08:43 GMT 1
Is that your view or that of your friends and family living here? I'll tell you what, I'll be sure to add a disclaimer or something other in my future posts if they happen to be expressing an opinion other than my own. Would that help? Hmm, to be fair to Matron, you were banging on about "such attitudes" as his (when it seemed obvious he was just joking around) "being shared by many within this new new Labour, that have seen many of the working class looking elsewhere for their representation (and who can blame them). " Now perhaps you have some good evidence for those enormous generalisations but they do seem quite sweeping assertions to be making from Shropshire, let alone Stuttgart. |
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Post by staffordshrew on Jul 17, 2019 14:11:11 GMT 1
Interesting mix of replies as normal! My general point was there will be an opportunity for locals/students/retired people to fill these jobs now. Labour shortage equals more money offered and better conditions so the chance will be there,if people want to improve there lot. First it was labour quotas, now it's higher wages and better working conditions. All hail salop27 and his new-found socialism! Of course, "more money offered" would mean higher prices or, more likely, farmers worse off, diversifying away from growing these crops and greater reliance on imports (which, under no deal, WTO rules, will be subject to tariffs, so higher prices again). I spent three summers working in the fields as a teenager and thoroughly enjoyed it. Our woeful rural public transport infrastructure hinders non-car owners in doing it though. I doubt that many retired people would have the desire and/or physical capability to do it. And as for "improving your lot" well, yeah, have you ever worked as a fruit or vegetable picker and, if you did, was that your sole source of income? Only done it as an amatuer - Pick Your Own, but if your lot was improved by working as a fruit picker then you have a pretty poor lot to start with. |
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Post by venceremos on Jul 17, 2019 14:32:16 GMT 1
First it was labour quotas, now it's higher wages and better working conditions. All hail salop27 and his new-found socialism! Of course, "more money offered" would mean higher prices or, more likely, farmers worse off, diversifying away from growing these crops and greater reliance on imports (which, under no deal, WTO rules, will be subject to tariffs, so higher prices again). I spent three summers working in the fields as a teenager and thoroughly enjoyed it. Our woeful rural public transport infrastructure hinders non-car owners in doing it though. I doubt that many retired people would have the desire and/or physical capability to do it. And as for "improving your lot" well, yeah, have you ever worked as a fruit or vegetable picker and, if you did, was that your sole source of income? Only done it as an amatuer - Pick Your Own, but if your lot was improved by working as a fruit picker then you have a pretty poor lot to start with. I picked potatoes and stacked straw bales for two summers. It did improve my lot but then "my lot" otherwise was pocket money (or pocketing my dinner money and school bus fares) at the time - and mum still cooked my tea! Another summer I picked blackcurrants (really fiddly, girls were much more productive and could therefore earn more) and strawberries - before the picked rows were left to the PYO crowds. By comparison, the potato picking wages were like working for an investment bank. I also spent some time weeding lettuces - 2" high, in rows about 200m long, undulating ground, no shelter from the sun and all for 50p a row! It was the 1970s but 50p wouldn't quite buy you two pints of beer. My friend tried to work flat out and do more rows. He almost collapsed and could hardly work for the rest of the day - slow and steady definitely won that race. Forty years older but in good health and reasonable shape, I couldn't work as a fruit picker, though I'd be ok with the spuds. Wouldn't last a full day with the lettuce! Good job I'm not retired! |
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Post by salop27 on Jul 17, 2019 14:56:02 GMT 1
Interesting mix of replies as normal! My general point was there will be an opportunity for locals/students/retired people to fill these jobs now. Labour shortage equals more money offered and better conditions so the chance will be there,if people want to improve there lot. First it was labour quotas, now it's higher wages and better working conditions. All hail salop27 and his new-found socialism! Of course, "more money offered" would mean higher prices or, more likely, farmers worse off, diversifying away from growing these crops and greater reliance on imports (which, under no deal, WTO rules, will be subject to tariffs, so higher prices again). I spent three summers working in the fields as a teenager and thoroughly enjoyed it. Our woeful rural public transport infrastructure hinders non-car owners in doing it though. I doubt that many retired people would have the desire and/or physical capability to do it. And as for "improving your lot" well, yeah, have you ever worked as a fruit or vegetable picker and, if you did, was that your sole source of income? I spent school holidays from age of 10 doing jobs on a farm and a summer on a hop farm from my one year as a student. The money I earned hop picking certainly improved "my lot" thanks. I've suggested something that can clearly be a benefit to certain groups of people and give them a chance to financially better themselves they possibly haven't had before. An opportunity a lot of us on here had when we were younger. |
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 17, 2019 15:06:48 GMT 1
I'll tell you what, I'll be sure to add a disclaimer or something other in my future posts if they happen to be expressing an opinion other than my own. Would that help? Hmm, to be fair to Matron, you were banging on about "such attitudes" as his (when it seemed obvious he was just joking around) "being shared by many within this new new Labour, that have seen many of the working class looking elsewhere for their representation (and who can blame them). " Now perhaps you have some good evidence for those enormous generalisations but they do seem quite sweeping assertions to be making from Shropshire, let alone Stuttgart. Well I'm just going off the information that is available from the 2017 general election. The information on the vote relating to demographics. More working class people voted for the Tories than Labour. This information is available online, there is an awful lot of comment available on it. So the working class are turning away from Labour, I think that trend is set to continue. So for me it'll be interesting to see if that trend is reversed or accelerated with Labour announcing they are for remain. We wait and see. And you're certainly a lot more confident than I that Matron is joking around with his comments to one or two on here, I'm really not sure of that at all. |
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 17, 2019 15:31:58 GMT 1
Interesting mix of replies as normal! My general point was there will be an opportunity for locals/students/retired people to fill these jobs now. Labour shortage equals more money offered and better conditions so the chance will be there,if people want to improve there lot. First it was labour quotas, now it's higher wages and better working conditions. All hail salop27 and his new-found socialism! Isn't that market forces? Supply and demand? Isn't that capitalism? And he might well be right, that could well be the case. Isn't higher wages and better working conditions not a good thing? Isn't that what many in the UK are seeking, isn't that one of the arguments against the influx of workers from the EU8 and elsewhere...that it impacts wages and working conditions for those in low and unskilled work? Its mad these days when you don't know who is left or right when it comes to these discussions. And I think that very much ties into the discussion above...👍 And as a side, I do think this is a good point when it comes to the view that Brits are too lazy to work in such jobs. I'm not sure about that at all. I'm sure if you offered the locals a comparable wage to those coming in from the EU8 (and by that I mean the equivalent to the worth they can send back home) then you would have no issue recruiting amongst the locals. We have to remember that the money received goes a long way more in Eastern Europe than it does in the UK. Its why the weaker pound is having an impact on the numbers now willing to perform such work. That is one of the issues we have in the EU, the imbalance. |
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Post by martinshrew on Jul 17, 2019 15:36:27 GMT 1
The more people like yourself dismiss other people's genuine concerns, the stronger their concerns will become. Salop27 raises a valid point that millions will have concerns about. Its all good. Its such attitudes, shared by many within this new new Labour, that have seen many of the working class looking elsewhere for their representation (and who can blame them). I mean when I dip into this thread its a constant reminder as to why so many have been turned off by Labour and certain sections of the 'left', whether that is set to continue now Labour are officially a remain party remains to be seen of course; but it'll be interesting how that may further impact on their support. 👍 You're absolutely right.
Hopefully, a far left ideology isn't something we'll have to suffer in this country. |
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Post by venceremos on Jul 17, 2019 15:47:18 GMT 1
Hmm, to be fair to Matron, you were banging on about "such attitudes" as his (when it seemed obvious he was just joking around) "being shared by many within this new new Labour, that have seen many of the working class looking elsewhere for their representation (and who can blame them). " Now perhaps you have some good evidence for those enormous generalisations but they do seem quite sweeping assertions to be making from Shropshire, let alone Stuttgart. Well I'm just going off the information that is available from the 2017 general election. The information on the vote relating to demographics. More working class people voted for the Tories than Labour. This information is available online, there is an awful lot of comment available on it. So the working class are turning away from Labour, I think that trend is set to continue. So for me it'll be interesting to see if that trend is reversed or accelerated with Labour announcing they are for remain. We wait and see. And you're certainly a lot more confident than I that Matron is joking around with his comments to one or two on here, I'm really not sure of that at all. I suppose most of us have been guilty of it, but the easy talk of what "working class" and "middle class" voters do or think or feel begs the much bigger question - who/what are they!? [That's intended to be rhetorical or else we might never leave this thread.] I've read several arguments to say that the old working/middle class division isn't relevant any more, that current divisions have more to do with levels of education or the metropolitan/smaller urban distinction. I'm inclined to agree with those. The "working class Tory" phenomenon (to which my beloved ancestors were somehow prone) might have had more to do with education/small town upbringing than their supposed class. It's for these reasons that I think Labour would be mad to alienate remain voters in pursuit of a supposed "traditional working class" vote that never won it a general election, certainly not in the modern era. That's not the country we are any more, if we ever really were. It's another reason why I think the country desperately needs to break away from the old two party domination (and get rid of the first past the post system that allows two minority parties to sustain it). Who knows? The only thing I'm sure of here is that Matron was joking. |
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Post by venceremos on Jul 17, 2019 16:06:10 GMT 1
First it was labour quotas, now it's higher wages and better working conditions. All hail salop27 and his new-found socialism! Isn't that market forces? Supply and demand? Isn't that capitalism? And he might well be right, that could well be the case. Isn't higher wages and better working conditions not a good thing? Isn't that what many in the UK are seeking, isn't that one of the arguments against the influx of workers from the EU8 and elsewhere...that it impacts wages and working conditions for those in low and unskilled work? Its mad these days when you don't know who is left or right when it comes to these discussions. And I think that very much ties into the discussion above...👍 And as a side, I do think this is a good point when it comes to the view that Brits are too lazy to work in such jobs. I'm not sure about that at all. I'm sure if you offered the locals a comparable wage to those coming in from the EU8 (and by that I mean the equivalent to the worth they can send back home) then you would have no issue recruiting amongst the locals. We have to remember that the money received goes a long way more in Eastern Europe than it does in the UK. Its why the weaker pound is having an impact on the numbers now willing to perform such work. That is one of the issues we have in the EU, the imbalance. It's a simplistic view of market forces and assumes no competition or pricing pressures for UK farmers, which we know to be unrealistic. It ignores the more likely reality that supermarkets and wholesalers will seek other suppliers if farmers try to increase prices to cover higher wage costs. It ignores the likelihood that farmers will switch production or stop producing altogether if their margins are squeezed and they can earn more through diversification - an associate of mine, who's also a farmer, makes a persuasive argument that the government is ready to see agricultural production collapse in the UK and our food imports increase massively, post brexit. Of course higher wages and better working conditions are a good thing. It's just not what I expect can be the outcome of brexit, especially not a no deal brexit. The simple fact is that the economy is more global than national and a single country can't isolate itself from the effects of that, unless it adopts a closed-border, Soviet-style, command economy, which nobody has been suggesting. So we can say we're "taking back control" of one aspect of our economy, which may or may not be the truth, but we can't then help but open up our economy to other uncontrollable, foreign factors. That's just the reality of the modern world, it's not a question of left or right. I don't know what "EU imbalance" you're referencing in your last point. If the weaker pound is now affecting the numbers of Eastern Europeans wanting to work in the UK, the question is why the pound is now weaker. Answer: because of brexit, not the EU itself. |
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 17, 2019 16:10:10 GMT 1
Well I'm just going off the information that is available from the 2017 general election. The information on the vote relating to demographics. More working class people voted for the Tories than Labour. This information is available online, there is an awful lot of comment available on it. So the working class are turning away from Labour, I think that trend is set to continue. So for me it'll be interesting to see if that trend is reversed or accelerated with Labour announcing they are for remain. We wait and see. And you're certainly a lot more confident than I that Matron is joking around with his comments to one or two on here, I'm really not sure of that at all. Who knows? The only thing I'm sure of here is that Matron was joking. Well I hope so but... By the by, this is something I read the other day and thought it a good read... The political void that Labour needs to fillI'm in no way a socialist but I have a lot of time for what this bloke says... I have a hope, still, that it will re-emerge as the natural home of the working-class.
That goes for me too. But I can't see that happening anytime soon and I say that because for me one of the points listed is... ...and take an axe to the whole divisive concept of identity politics.
...and I just can't see that happening when you look to the party and who now makes up the majority of its membership. I'm just not sure its priorities match those of a good few who make up the working class. I'm sure there are a number in the membership who concern themselves more with the West Bank than they do with the West Midlands...  A slight exaggeration perhaps, but you get my meaning.  I do think the trend will continue if nothing changes. More will look to the Tories or the Brexit Party. Might turn out wrong, mind. Things change and can change quickly. But thats how I see it. |
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 17, 2019 16:33:47 GMT 1
Isn't that market forces? Supply and demand? Isn't that capitalism? And he might well be right, that could well be the case. Isn't higher wages and better working conditions not a good thing? Isn't that what many in the UK are seeking, isn't that one of the arguments against the influx of workers from the EU8 and elsewhere...that it impacts wages and working conditions for those in low and unskilled work? Its mad these days when you don't know who is left or right when it comes to these discussions. And I think that very much ties into the discussion above...👍 And as a side, I do think this is a good point when it comes to the view that Brits are too lazy to work in such jobs. I'm not sure about that at all. I'm sure if you offered the locals a comparable wage to those coming in from the EU8 (and by that I mean the equivalent to the worth they can send back home) then you would have no issue recruiting amongst the locals. We have to remember that the money received goes a long way more in Eastern Europe than it does in the UK. Its why the weaker pound is having an impact on the numbers now willing to perform such work. That is one of the issues we have in the EU, the imbalance. It's a simplistic view of market forces and assumes no competition or pricing pressures for UK farmers, which we know to be unrealistic. It ignores the more likely reality that supermarkets and wholesalers will seek other suppliers if farmers try to increase prices to cover higher wage costs. It ignores the likelihood that farmers will switch production or stop producing altogether if their margins are squeezed and they can earn more through diversification - an associate of mine, who's also a farmer, makes a persuasive argument that the government is ready to see agricultural production collapse in the UK and our food imports increase massively, post brexit. Of course higher wages and better working conditions are a good thing. It's just not what I expect can be the outcome of brexit, especially not a no deal brexit. The simple fact is that the economy is more global than national and a single country can't isolate itself from the effects of that, unless it adopts a closed-border, Soviet-style, command economy, which nobody has been suggesting. So we can say we're "taking back control" of one aspect of our economy, which may or may not be the truth, but we can't then help but open up our economy to other uncontrollable, foreign factors. That's just the reality of the modern world, it's not a question of left or right. I don't know what "EU imbalance" you're referencing in your last point. If the weaker pound is now affecting the numbers of Eastern Europeans wanting to work in the UK, the question is why the pound is now weaker. Answer: because of brexit, not the EU itself. The imbalance is that people within the EU8 can and do make an awful lot more money in Western Europe than they would at home, meaning the movement of people is for the most part in one direction. Those in the EU8 can come and work in the UK and earn very good money (when looking to how far that money goes at home). Meaning they are prepared to come and work in the UK for wages and working conditions that the locals would not do (because of the financial rewards on offer). People in the UK do not have this option, they have nowhere else to go where they can do the same. Compare the numbers coming to and from the East and West. There is a clear imbalance. Whilst some countries have concerns about immigration, some have concerns about emigration. Its not equal and I think this is one of the main issues with the EU. And that "Brussels" just doesn't understand the problems it can bring. Brexit for me started when Blair's Labour didn't put transition controls in place when the EU8 joined the EU. The numbers are why Brexit came about. And we're all guessing what comes about if Brexit does happen. But I was reading the other day that wages in the construction industry have risen because of the numbers now available for employers to recruit from. Now what we will see in the long run, who knows. But this is an example of where the reduced number of people coming over to work in a specific industry has meant an increase in pay for those here in the UK. I think it was in the Guardian some time back. I'll have to check again. Think it was in construction anyhow. And that about the modern world, uncontrollable forces, opening up the economy. Like I say, difficult to know who is left and right these days. But this is the shift that people talk about, right? Within Labour and the "left". That this was not its traditional stance. And sure, no one said it was the EU that is at fault for the weaker pound. I'm just saying that the weaker pound has put people off from coming over here and taking up such work. Some were clearly only willing to do so because the pay was so good. Give locals the same comparable rewards and I'm sure they would take it up too. Its not all about the locals being lazy. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2019 16:38:46 GMT 1
Labour this, Labour that. Reports vary about the numbers at the Miners Gala, but you just don't see rallies like this in Surrey. www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/durham-miners-gala-live-updates-16578881Working Class, middle class is neither here or there really. I guess one way you vote, depends on whether you work in the Public, or Private sector, in the NHS, or Social Care, or have disabled family. This transcends 'class'. |
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Post by mattmw on Jul 17, 2019 18:24:16 GMT 1
It's a simplistic view of market forces and assumes no competition or pricing pressures for UK farmers, which we know to be unrealistic. It ignores the more likely reality that supermarkets and wholesalers will seek other suppliers if farmers try to increase prices to cover higher wage costs. It ignores the likelihood that farmers will switch production or stop producing altogether if their margins are squeezed and they can earn more through diversification - an associate of mine, who's also a farmer, makes a persuasive argument that the government is ready to see agricultural production collapse in the UK and our food imports increase massively, post brexit. Of course higher wages and better working conditions are a good thing. It's just not what I expect can be the outcome of brexit, especially not a no deal brexit. The simple fact is that the economy is more global than national and a single country can't isolate itself from the effects of that, unless it adopts a closed-border, Soviet-style, command economy, which nobody has been suggesting. So we can say we're "taking back control" of one aspect of our economy, which may or may not be the truth, but we can't then help but open up our economy to other uncontrollable, foreign factors. That's just the reality of the modern world, it's not a question of left or right. I don't know what "EU imbalance" you're referencing in your last point. If the weaker pound is now affecting the numbers of Eastern Europeans wanting to work in the UK, the question is why the pound is now weaker. Answer: because of brexit, not the EU itself. The imbalance is that people within the EU8 can and do make an awful lot more money in Western Europe than they would at home, meaning the movement of people is for the most part in one direction. Those in the EU8 can come and work in the UK and earn very good money (when looking to how far that money goes at home). Meaning they are prepared to come and work in the UK for wages and working conditions that the locals would not do (because of the financial rewards on offer). People in the UK do not have this option, they have nowhere else to go where they can do the same. Compare the numbers coming to and from the East and West. There is a clear imbalance. Whilst some countries have concerns about immigration, some have concerns about emigration. Its not equal and I think this is one of the main issues with the EU. And that "Brussels" just doesn't understand the problems it can bring. Brexit for me started when Blair's Labour didn't put transition controls in place when the EU8 joined the EU. The numbers are why Brexit came about. And we're all guessing what comes about if Brexit does happen. But I was reading the other day that wages in the construction industry have risen because of the numbers now available for employers to recruit from. Now what we will see in the long run, who knows. But this is an example of where the reduced number of people coming over to work in a specific industry has meant an increase in pay for those here in the UK. I think it was in the Guardian some time back. I'll have to check again. Think it was in construction anyhow. And that about the modern world, uncontrollable forces, opening up the economy. Like I say, difficult to know who is left and right these days. But this is the shift that people talk about, right? Within Labour and the "left". That this was not its traditional stance. And sure, no one said it was the EU that is at fault for the weaker pound. I'm just saying that the weaker pound has put people off from coming over here and taking up such work. Some were clearly only willing to do so because the pay was so good. Give locals the same comparable rewards and I'm sure they would take it up too. Its not all about the locals being lazy. The Migration Advisory Committee publishes a report last year that showed EU workers on average paid £1000 more tax than the average U.K. resident, and generally had higher education qualifications than the UK work force, so it’s not always about wages but also skill levels too It’s something we are keeping a close eye on in Shropshire as due to our older population we have quite a small workforce in Shropshire and filling posts in sectors like health care and the building industry has become more difficult as fewer EU workers come to work here. How posts get filled post brexit will be important for our local economy It’s a particular issue in the care industry in Shropshire where in some cases up-to 40% of workers are from the EU The government publishes a list of sectors where recruitment of skilled workers is published, and since brexit it’s interesting seeing the sectors being added to the list. Well worth keeping an eye on these report - show really interesting figures about U.K. employment statistics assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/806331/28_05_2019_Full_Review_SOL_Final_Report_1159.pdf |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2019 19:21:12 GMT 1
The imbalance is that people within the EU8 can and do make an awful lot more money in Western Europe than they would at home, meaning the movement of people is for the most part in one direction. Those in the EU8 can come and work in the UK and earn very good money (when looking to how far that money goes at home). Meaning they are prepared to come and work in the UK for wages and working conditions that the locals would not do (because of the financial rewards on offer). People in the UK do not have this option, they have nowhere else to go where they can do the same. Compare the numbers coming to and from the East and West. There is a clear imbalance. Whilst some countries have concerns about immigration, some have concerns about emigration. Its not equal and I think this is one of the main issues with the EU. And that "Brussels" just doesn't understand the problems it can bring. Brexit for me started when Blair's Labour didn't put transition controls in place when the EU8 joined the EU. The numbers are why Brexit came about. And we're all guessing what comes about if Brexit does happen. But I was reading the other day that wages in the construction industry have risen because of the numbers now available for employers to recruit from. Now what we will see in the long run, who knows. But this is an example of where the reduced number of people coming over to work in a specific industry has meant an increase in pay for those here in the UK. I think it was in the Guardian some time back. I'll have to check again. Think it was in construction anyhow. And that about the modern world, uncontrollable forces, opening up the economy. Like I say, difficult to know who is left and right these days. But this is the shift that people talk about, right? Within Labour and the "left". That this was not its traditional stance. And sure, no one said it was the EU that is at fault for the weaker pound. I'm just saying that the weaker pound has put people off from coming over here and taking up such work. Some were clearly only willing to do so because the pay was so good. Give locals the same comparable rewards and I'm sure they would take it up too. Its not all about the locals being lazy. The Migration Advisory Committee publishes a report last year that showed EU workers on average paid £1000 more tax than the average U.K. resident, and generally had higher education qualifications than the UK work force, so it’s not always about wages but also skill levels too It’s something we are keeping a close eye on in Shropshire as due to our older population we have quite a small workforce in Shropshire and filling posts in sectors like health care and the building industry has become more difficult as fewer EU workers come to work here. How posts get filled post brexit will be important for our local economy It’s a particular issue in the care industry in Shropshire where in some cases up-to 40% of workers are from the EU The government publishes a list of sectors where recruitment of skilled workers is published, and since brexit it’s interesting seeing the sectors being added to the list. Well worth keeping an eye on these report - show really interesting figures about U.K. employment statistics assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/806331/28_05_2019_Full_Review_SOL_Final_Report_1159.pdfJust had a quick browse through that report, specifically the lower skilled section and found this about social care:
The basic cause of the recruitment and retention problems in social care is that the terms and conditions offered in many of the jobs are unattractive. A recent newsletter from the Health Foundation wrote that “Across the social care sector, recruitment and retention are affected by the perceived low status of the work, by low pay, training, and levels of in-work support. There is little career progression and that means it’s hard to attract and retain people with the right skills and values.”(3)The Low Pay Commission (LPC) highlight that 12.8% of workers aged 25 and over in social care were covered by the National Minimum/National Living Wage (NWM/NLW) in 2018 compared to 6.5% in the labour market as a whole(4). Skills for Care report that 25% of all workers in the English adult social care workforce were on ZHCs, with the share being highest amongst care workers (35%)(1). Social care contains a range of jobs of different skill levels but the key role of care assistant does not, as currently constituted, normally require a formal qualification or a greatdeal of experience: this is the sense in which we describe this job as lower-skilled, not as a statement about the value of the work being done. Shortages in this sector occur primarily because many workers do not want these jobs, rather than because there is no-one qualified to do them.
The last sentence hits the nail on the head. Why would anyone want to look after the elderly, infirm, disabled or those with dementia on a ZHC with minimum wage, minimum perks, split shifts, weekend work and unsociable hours, when even a dead-end factory job has better pay and conditions? Those that do have my utmost admiration, as I'm certian that I would not last 5 minutes in the job, but a large percentage of these workers are immigrants either from inside or outside the EU, in another section they estimate around 8% from inside. If that labour pool dries up who is going to take up the slack? Third generation dole claimants under the threat of sanctions? I wouldn't want someone like that looking after any of my loved ones and I doubt many on here would.
The same goes for immigrant agricultural workers. Salop27 reckons that the wages and conditions would have to improve to tempt the unemployed or semi-retired or students to take up the jobs, but that would just put up costs for the farmer and that cost would need to be passed on to the wholesaler, the retailer and eventually to the customer, which would lead to rising inflation negating the bump in wages that the farm workers had recieved (and affecting everyone else into the bargain). I am struggling to see a winner here.
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Post by frankwellshrews on Jul 17, 2019 19:50:21 GMT 1
First it was labour quotas, now it's higher wages and better working conditions. All hail salop27 and his new-found socialism! Of course, "more money offered" would mean higher prices or, more likely, farmers worse off, diversifying away from growing these crops and greater reliance on imports (which, under no deal, WTO rules, will be subject to tariffs, so higher prices again). I spent three summers working in the fields as a teenager and thoroughly enjoyed it. Our woeful rural public transport infrastructure hinders non-car owners in doing it though. I doubt that many retired people would have the desire and/or physical capability to do it. And as for "improving your lot" well, yeah, have you ever worked as a fruit or vegetable picker and, if you did, was that your sole source of income? I spent school holidays from age of 10 doing jobs on a farm and a summer on a hop farm from my one year as a student. The money I earned hop picking certainly improved "my lot" thanks. I've suggested something that can clearly be a benefit to certain groups of people and give them a chance to financially better themselves they possibly haven't had before. An opportunity a lot of us on here had when we were younger. Might have got the wrong end of the stick here, but I thought conservatives and brexit itself was meant to be more ambitious than this. A genuinely forward thinkimg, advanced society should be automating toil out of existence and investing in education and new hi tech industries which will develop skilled, well paying jobs. In short, you can shove your fruit picking where the sun don't shine, mate. I'll stick with Europe if that's the best your side has to offer. |
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Post by salop27 on Jul 17, 2019 20:40:05 GMT 1
I spent school holidays from age of 10 doing jobs on a farm and a summer on a hop farm from my one year as a student. The money I earned hop picking certainly improved "my lot" thanks. I've suggested something that can clearly be a benefit to certain groups of people and give them a chance to financially better themselves they possibly haven't had before. An opportunity a lot of us on here had when we were younger. Might have got the wrong end of the stick here, but I thought conservatives and brexit itself was meant to be more ambitious than this. A genuinely forward thinkimg, advanced society should be automating toil out of existence and investing in education and new hi tech industries which will develop skilled, well paying jobs. In short, you can shove your fruit picking where the sun don't shine, mate. I'll stick with Europe if that's the best your side has to offer. Invent a robot that picks strawberries then buddy and make it affordable while your at it 👍 You'll stick with Europe? We're not leaving europe. |
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 17, 2019 20:53:27 GMT 1
The imbalance is that people within the EU8 can and do make an awful lot more money in Western Europe than they would at home, meaning the movement of people is for the most part in one direction. Those in the EU8 can come and work in the UK and earn very good money (when looking to how far that money goes at home). Meaning they are prepared to come and work in the UK for wages and working conditions that the locals would not do (because of the financial rewards on offer). People in the UK do not have this option, they have nowhere else to go where they can do the same. Compare the numbers coming to and from the East and West. There is a clear imbalance. Whilst some countries have concerns about immigration, some have concerns about emigration. Its not equal and I think this is one of the main issues with the EU. And that "Brussels" just doesn't understand the problems it can bring. Brexit for me started when Blair's Labour didn't put transition controls in place when the EU8 joined the EU. The numbers are why Brexit came about. And we're all guessing what comes about if Brexit does happen. But I was reading the other day that wages in the construction industry have risen because of the numbers now available for employers to recruit from. Now what we will see in the long run, who knows. But this is an example of where the reduced number of people coming over to work in a specific industry has meant an increase in pay for those here in the UK. I think it was in the Guardian some time back. I'll have to check again. Think it was in construction anyhow. And that about the modern world, uncontrollable forces, opening up the economy. Like I say, difficult to know who is left and right these days. But this is the shift that people talk about, right? Within Labour and the "left". That this was not its traditional stance. And sure, no one said it was the EU that is at fault for the weaker pound. I'm just saying that the weaker pound has put people off from coming over here and taking up such work. Some were clearly only willing to do so because the pay was so good. Give locals the same comparable rewards and I'm sure they would take it up too. Its not all about the locals being lazy. The Migration Advisory Committee publishes a report last year that showed EU workers on average paid £1000 more tax than the average U.K. resident, and generally had higher education qualifications than the UK work force, so it’s not always about wages but also skill levels too It’s something we are keeping a close eye on in Shropshire as due to our older population we have quite a small workforce in Shropshire and filling posts in sectors like health care and the building industry has become more difficult as fewer EU workers come to work here. How posts get filled post brexit will be important for our local economy It’s a particular issue in the care industry in Shropshire where in some cases up-to 40% of workers are from the EU The government publishes a list of sectors where recruitment of skilled workers is published, and since brexit it’s interesting seeing the sectors being added to the list. Well worth keeping an eye on these report - show really interesting figures about U.K. employment statistics assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/806331/28_05_2019_Full_Review_SOL_Final_Report_1159.pdfThanks for the link. So that's a looking to skilled employment? And in addition certain essential services (such as health)? Will take a look...👍 Regarding the point on tax (and we also hear about the contributions to GDP etc.), this comes to mind...
The "costs" of immigration need to be taken into account as much as do the "benefits" when it comes to designing the appropriate policy. The concerns of the "losers" are as relevant as those of the "winners." Such is especially the case when those most adversely impacted are the least advantaged persons in the population and labour market.
...and I think its an important point to consider because as much as people want to focus on the benefits of immigration (and there most certainly are. I most certainly hope so anyhow) there can also be losers. And perhaps when you focus on the winners and not so much the losers, things like Brexit come about. I think a persons outlook on immigration and the benefits it brings will most certainly be dependant on the labour market in which they find themselves. Skilled and unskilled are a different kettle of fish. And as I recall that was reflected in the referendum result. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2019 20:56:28 GMT 1
Who knows? The only thing I'm sure of here is that Matron was joking. Well I hope so but... By the by, this is something I read the other day and thought it a good read... The political void that Labour needs to fillI'm in no way a socialist but I have a lot of time for what this bloke says... I have a hope, still, that it will re-emerge as the natural home of the working-class.
That goes for me too. But I can't see that happening anytime soon and I say that because for me one of the points listed is... ...and take an axe to the whole divisive concept of identity politics.
...and I just can't see that happening when you look to the party and who now makes up the majority of its membership. I'm just not sure its priorities match those of a good few who make up the working class. I'm sure there are a number in the membership who concern themselves more with the West Bank than they do with the West Midlands... A slight exaggeration perhaps, but you get my meaning. I do think the trend will continue if nothing changes. More will look to the Tories or the Brexit Party. Might turn out wrong, mind. Things change and can change quickly. But thats how I see it. Labours manifesto mentioned the word "Palestine" twice. It mentioned the words jobs and working 32 and 33 times respectively and in fact devotes an entire section towards devolving powers to local administrations and government. |
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 17, 2019 20:59:32 GMT 1
Well I hope so but... By the by, this is something I read the other day and thought it a good read... The political void that Labour needs to fillI'm in no way a socialist but I have a lot of time for what this bloke says... I have a hope, still, that it will re-emerge as the natural home of the working-class.
That goes for me too. But I can't see that happening anytime soon and I say that because for me one of the points listed is... ...and take an axe to the whole divisive concept of identity politics.
...and I just can't see that happening when you look to the party and who now makes up the majority of its membership. I'm just not sure its priorities match those of a good few who make up the working class. I'm sure there are a number in the membership who concern themselves more with the West Bank than they do with the West Midlands... A slight exaggeration perhaps, but you get my meaning. I do think the trend will continue if nothing changes. More will look to the Tories or the Brexit Party. Might turn out wrong, mind. Things change and can change quickly. But thats how I see it. Labours manifesto mentioned the word "Palestine" twice. It mentioned the words jobs and working 32 and 33 times respectively and in fact devotes an entire section towards devolving powers to local administrations and government. And? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2019 21:14:54 GMT 1
Labours manifesto mentioned the word "Palestine" twice. It mentioned the words jobs and working 32 and 33 times respectively and in fact devotes an entire section towards devolving powers to local administrations and government. And? You conflate prominent pro palestinian campaigners within labours membership to labours overall drive and mission. So what if some members want a resolve to issues in the middle east? I'm nigh on certain they are also concerned for and campaign for people in the west Midlands. There isn't a day goes by where Labour doesn't announce a policy or initiative which if in government is designed to improve the lives of those who need help and support. Interesting you link to an Embery article above. Practically everything he suggests is at some point in labours 2017 manifesto. The only real difference is the position on immigration which id add is also not that far off Embery's position. "Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union. Britain’s immigration system will change, but Labour will not scapegoat migrants nor blame them for economic failures." Ironic really then that the current controllers of immigration have recently overseen the largest influx of non eu migrants in 15 years. I haven't seen your comments on that? |
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 17, 2019 21:45:30 GMT 1
You conflate prominent pro palestinian campaigners within labours membership to labours overall drive and mission. So what if some members want a resolve to issues in the middle east? I'm nigh on certain they are also concerned for and campaign for people in the west Midlands. There isn't a day goes by where Labour doesn't announce a policy or initiative which if in government is designed to improve the lives of those who need help and support. Interesting you link to an Embery article above. Practically everything he suggests is at some point in labours 2017 manifesto. The only real difference is the position on immigration which id add is also not that far off Embery's position. "Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union. Britain’s immigration system will change, but Labour will not scapegoat migrants nor blame them for economic failures." Ironic really then that the current controllers of immigration have recently overseen the largest influx of non eu migrants in 15 years. I haven't seen your comments on that? Perhaps it isn't too far off (I'll have a read again) but I think there is more to it than just immigration. As I pointed to earlier, he also talks about those buzzwords and identity politics. Things that I do not think this Labour will now be able to shake off (or indeed would want to) considering who is now running the party and who makes up its membership. And when Labour talk about how the immigration system will change if the UK leaves the EU, did they mention what they would introduce to replace it? I'll take a look. A quick glance and this would now be the Labour party who now would campaign for the UK to remain within the EU. Yet in the manifesto states... Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first.
As for people coming to the UK from non-EU countries, sure...we haven't discussed that have we? We've focussed here on Brexit and therefore migration coming in from EU countries. But for sure looking to last years net migration numbers, the numbers from the EU are down and the numbers from non-EU countries has risen. |
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Post by staffordshrew on Jul 17, 2019 22:24:06 GMT 1
We're not leaving europe. Had me going there, I thought your transformation was complete and you had seen the light. But, as we are not leaving Europe wouldn't it be better to remain in the union that most of the other countries in Europe feel they want to belong to? It reminds me of Trade Unions in the 80's and even now, they like their own little bit of power but generally are good for the members. It's up to the members to keep a reign on any Union leaders who go off on their own power agenda. But it is worth being in. |
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Post by mattmw on Jul 17, 2019 22:31:09 GMT 1
The Migration Advisory Committee publishes a report last year that showed EU workers on average paid £1000 more tax than the average U.K. resident, and generally had higher education qualifications than the UK work force, so it’s not always about wages but also skill levels too It’s something we are keeping a close eye on in Shropshire as due to our older population we have quite a small workforce in Shropshire and filling posts in sectors like health care and the building industry has become more difficult as fewer EU workers come to work here. How posts get filled post brexit will be important for our local economy It’s a particular issue in the care industry in Shropshire where in some cases up-to 40% of workers are from the EU The government publishes a list of sectors where recruitment of skilled workers is published, and since brexit it’s interesting seeing the sectors being added to the list. Well worth keeping an eye on these report - show really interesting figures about U.K. employment statistics assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/806331/28_05_2019_Full_Review_SOL_Final_Report_1159.pdfThanks for the link. So that's a looking to skilled employment? And in addition certain essential services (such as health)? Will take a look...👍 Regarding the point on tax (and we also hear about the contributions to GDP etc.), this comes to mind...
The "costs" of immigration need to be taken into account as much as do the "benefits" when it comes to designing the appropriate policy. The concerns of the "losers" are as relevant as those of the "winners." Such is especially the case when those most adversely impacted are the least advantaged persons in the population and labour market.
...and I think its an important point to consider because as much as people want to focus on the benefits of immigration (and there most certainly are. I most certainly hope so anyhow) there can also be losers. And perhaps when you focus on the winners and not so much the losers, things like Brexit come about. I think a persons outlook on immigration and the benefits it brings will most certainly be dependant on the labour market in which they find themselves. Skilled and unskilled are a different kettle of fish. And as I recall that was reflected in the referendum result. The Migration Advisory Committee reports are a good source of information on that topic too. Research suggests that broadly there isn’t as much impact on the lowest 20% of earners as a result of immigration as is perhaps perceived. As Neil suggested in his earlier post the ability of low paid, low skilled workers to access employment isn’t really as immigrants are here doing all the jobs, it’s more that people at the low end of the scale don’t have the education, skills and experience to get on the labour market, and employers are therefore less likely to take them on However there is very much a public perception that immigration has wider impacts on low pay than it does. It certainly impacted on the brexit result That’s where post brexit policy will be interesting as will the new skills based criteria the government introduce for immigration be based on real needs of employers and business, or on the public mood that immigration should be controlled. Doubtful they can please everyone |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2019 0:04:02 GMT 1
The problem i see, is we encourage our kids not to do the fruit picking and manual labour that i enjoyed as a kid, but then give them everything they ask for, and expect our void to be filled with migrants from lesser EU countries. Perhaps that is actually the main problem..... Our kids have become lazy and we encourage this.....
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 18, 2019 7:32:40 GMT 1
Thanks for the link. So that's a looking to skilled employment? And in addition certain essential services (such as health)? Will take a look...👍 Regarding the point on tax (and we also hear about the contributions to GDP etc.), this comes to mind...
The "costs" of immigration need to be taken into account as much as do the "benefits" when it comes to designing the appropriate policy. The concerns of the "losers" are as relevant as those of the "winners." Such is especially the case when those most adversely impacted are the least advantaged persons in the population and labour market.
...and I think its an important point to consider because as much as people want to focus on the benefits of immigration (and there most certainly are. I most certainly hope so anyhow) there can also be losers. And perhaps when you focus on the winners and not so much the losers, things like Brexit come about. I think a persons outlook on immigration and the benefits it brings will most certainly be dependant on the labour market in which they find themselves. Skilled and unskilled are a different kettle of fish. And as I recall that was reflected in the referendum result. The Migration Advisory Committee reports are a good source of information on that topic too. Research suggests that broadly there isn’t as much impact on the lowest 20% of earners as a result of immigration as is perhaps perceived. But it does have an impact or? I mean there is information out that that tells us that although the UK average wage may not have been impacted by immigration, when you dig deeper and look at specific areas of the labour market then there is an impact... How immigrants affect jobs and wages
Already mentioned the Southampton MP who way back when contacting Blair with his concerns about the impact the huge influx of workers from the EU8 were having on local wages in the construction industry. We have the builder in South Shields (when asked by John Harris of the Guardian) informing us that his hourly rate had come down by £3 an hour because there were now people in the industry who were prepared to do the work cheaper. We now have it reported that with competition going down, wages within the construction industry are rising... Construction pay rises as EU workers weigh up leaving UK – survey
From that we see... “We know that over a third of European construction workers who are already here have considered leaving the UK due to Brexit.
“This should be of huge concern to industry leaders and the government, especially in the capital, where nearly one in three people working in London’s construction sector were born in the EU.
“The shrinking pool of EU talent is already driving up wages – that’s the power of supply and demand. This builder Brexodus is the referendum’s inheritance.”When you look to that what I have highlighted, isn't it about getting the balance right between the two? And perhaps a good few people thought the only way that could be achieved was if immigration is managed differently, as to help bring about that balance. As the status quo wasn't going to do so, more of the same wasn't going to change anything? So when it does come to employers, business and the public (I gather with this you mean employees and those in the labour market) then it is going to be a difficult balance. I suppose the argument made however, by those who voted for Brexit, is if the UK does leave the EU, at least the UK would have full control on how it is implemented. But I am sure you are absolutely right, they'll struggle to please everyone. 👍 |
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 18, 2019 7:43:43 GMT 1
The problem i see, is we encourage our kids not to do the fruit picking and manual labour that i enjoyed as a kid, but then give them everything they ask for, and expect our void to be filled with migrants from lesser EU countries. Perhaps that is actually the main problem..... Our kids have become lazy and we encourage this..... Or maybe they're just not willing to perform the work for the wage on offer? How do you mean "lesser" EU country? You mean where the cost of living is lower? Well that's the point I make above, give locals the comparable wage and then see how lazy there are. Or give those people coming in the same amount as would be for the locals and see how many would then be prepared to perform the work. I don't think its about being lazy, its about getting a fair days pay for a fair days work. 👍 |
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Its such attitudes, shared by many within this new new Labour, that have seen many of the working class looking elsewhere for their representation (and who can blame them). 
A slight exaggeration perhaps, but you get my meaning. 
