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Post by martinshrew on Jan 10, 2024 9:54:47 GMT 1
I hope they go completely bust to be honest. I would caveat I don't have anything against anyone who makes a living from them now, milk the barstewards if you can.
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Post by Minormorris64 on Jan 10, 2024 10:30:04 GMT 1
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 10, 2024 11:35:31 GMT 1
As someone who works in IT I find the role of Fujitsu in all this intriguing. Perhaps a tad unfair to say this considering there might be an awful lot more we don't know but first impressions is that they seem to have come out of this relatively unscathed (more so considering the additional contracts I believe they have obtained from the UK government). Be interesting to know what they knew, what they informed the Post Office, etc.
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Post by davycrockett on Jan 10, 2024 12:08:40 GMT 1
As someone who works in IT I find the role of Fujitsu in all this intriguing. Perhaps a tad unfair to say this considering there might be an awful lot more we don't know but first impressions is that they seem to have come out of this relatively unscathed (more so considering the additional contracts I believe they have obtained from the UK government). Be interesting to know what they knew, what they informed the Post Office, etc. No doubt we’ll find out now they’ve been invited to attend a parliamentary committee to be questioned. No doubt we’re looking for someone else to pick up the costs.
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Post by northwestman on Jan 10, 2024 12:15:20 GMT 1
As someone who works in IT I find the role of Fujitsu in all this intriguing. Perhaps a tad unfair to say this considering there might be an awful lot more we don't know but first impressions is that they seem to have come out of this relatively unscathed (more so considering the additional contracts I believe they have obtained from the UK government). Be interesting to know what they knew, what they informed the Post Office, etc. There's a link between Fujitsu and the Education Secretary Gillian Keegan. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12942593/Education-Secretary-Gillian-Keegan-husband-Michael-Post-Office-scandal.htmlMichael Keegan, whose wife Gillian is the Education Secretary, was formerly the UK chief executive and chairman of Fujitsu, whose Horizon IT system was at the heart of the baseless prosecutions of sub-postmasters over two decades. Mr Keegan is a non-executive director of an IT firm called Centerprise, which in May won a £1 million contract linked (controversially, given his wife's job) to the schools rebuilding programme.
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Post by ssshrew on Jan 10, 2024 12:24:40 GMT 1
Of course there is! No great surprise that one of them had a connection.
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Post by martinshrew on Jan 10, 2024 12:28:37 GMT 1
That horrible old bags pension should be reallocated straight into the compensation fund.
In fact, I think the sub masters should get the minimum £600k payment and a heavy pension for life, why should'nt they?
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Post by ssshrew on Jan 10, 2024 12:36:06 GMT 1
Yes indeed totally agree.
We only get one life and it is the duty of everyone to ensure that each individual has the best life they can. This makes me just so so angry that this bunch of selfish and egotistical people are, at the moment, being allowed to get away with literally ruining other’s hopes, happiness and ambitions. In some cases literally their lives.
It disgusts me that it has taken a TV drama to highlight this to the extent that at last something is being done.
As far as I am concerned those responsible can rot hopefully in jail.
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Post by Pilch on Jan 10, 2024 12:53:16 GMT 1
I have wondered if there were any postmasters who were having the opposite problem and Horizon informing them they were up each week, the real can of worms will be if there were and they informed the post office about it handing over the extra each time
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Post by martinshrew on Jan 10, 2024 12:58:55 GMT 1
I have wondered if there were any postmasters who were having the opposite problem and Horizon informing them they were up each week, the real can of worms will be if there were and they informed the post office about it handing over the extra each time I was thinking this last night, in light of how the others were treated I hope a few gave them a good milking.
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Post by Minormorris64 on Jan 10, 2024 13:13:16 GMT 1
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Post by venceremos on Jan 10, 2024 13:35:04 GMT 1
In 2010, replying to what he called an “offensive” brush-off from Sir Ed Davey, now the leader of the Liberal Democrats then the minister for postal affairs, Alan Bates wrote: “It is [precisely] because you have adopted an arm’s length relationship… [that] you have enabled them [the Post Office] to carry on with impunity regardless of the human misery and suffering they inflict...” He urged Davey not to simply “listen to civil servants” nor to act without questioning the Post Office’s claims. (An embattled Sir Ed now insists the Post Office was “lying on an industrial scale to me”. That’s no excuse. Alan Bates told him as much and he chose not to believe him. Not only that, Davey was later hired as a political consultant by top law firm Herbert Smith Freehills, which was acting for – guess who? – the Post Office! He was paid £833 per hour, amassing a grand total of £225,000. There’s a phrase for that kind of money, I believe. Perhaps Sir Ed Davey might like to call for the resignation of Sir Ed Davey?) Allison Pearson - Daily Telegraph. Davey (and others) have questions to answer about their ministerial inaction, for sure, but his subsequent consultancy doesn't seem relevant. And I can never take anything seriously that's uttered by the grotesque hypocrite, Allison Pearson.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jan 10, 2024 15:07:13 GMT 1
Seems to have rings of Hillsboorugh about it.
People using their statutory power to protect themselves.
The fact the post office can bring direct criminal proceedings has to be rescinded.
The whole thing is just wrong upon wrong upon wrong. A whole ecosystem complicit with ruining people's lives.
The heads at the top should go to prison themselves. Allowing people to be framed, then deliberately punishing them for it, must be some sort of false imprisonment? Definitely slander. They should do time themselves. It is industrial level fraud at the heart of a so called public service.
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Post by southshropblue on Jan 10, 2024 15:21:27 GMT 1
Seems to have rings of Hillsboorugh about it. People using their statutory power to protect themselves. The fact the post office can bring direct criminal proceedings has to be rescinded. The whole thing is just wrong upon wrong upon wrong. A whole ecosystem complicit with ruining people's lives. The heads at the top should go to prison themselves. Allowing people to be framed, then deliberately punishing them for it, must be some sort of false imprisonment? Definitely slander. They should do time themselves. It is industrial level fraud at the heart of a so called public service. Not just Hillsborough but Grenfell,the maternity scandal (including locally) the blood scandal etcetc etc There often seems to be lack of willingness by managers and executives to ask tough questions and when things got wrong they say Lessons have been learned and head for the hills often with large rewards and bonuses
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Post by northwestman on Jan 10, 2024 20:16:34 GMT 1
Seems to have rings of Hillsboorugh about it. People using their statutory power to protect themselves. The fact the post office can bring direct criminal proceedings has to be rescinded. The whole thing is just wrong upon wrong upon wrong. A whole ecosystem complicit with ruining people's lives. The heads at the top should go to prison themselves. Allowing people to be framed, then deliberately punishing them for it, must be some sort of false imprisonment? Definitely slander. They should do time themselves. It is industrial level fraud at the heart of a so called public service. And don't forget Orgreave - an absolute scandal that Amber Rudd blocked a statutory public inquiry from ever taking place. On 31st October 2016 Amber Rudd announced in Parliament that there would be no investigation or inquiry of any type on the grounds there had been no deaths, no convictions, no miscarriage of justice, no new lessons for current police forces to learn and that it was a long time ago. otjc.org.uk/about/
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Post by staffordshrew on Jan 11, 2024 11:09:07 GMT 1
Not sure if they have one now, but PM's sometimes appoint a "Minister without portfolio". One of the things I would put in their portfolio is chasing up these long standing issues that affect decent people in this country (and could jump up and bite the government). The list might be long, but, after this sub postmaster scandal, I would put the HIV infected blood product scandal, so far it gives the impression that the longer they make them wait for compensation the more the chance of them dying and saving pay outs.
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Post by jamo on Jan 11, 2024 12:15:07 GMT 1
Whilst I am absolutely in favour of those affected being totally exonerated and their convictions quashed, I am very uneasy about this being achieved by a legislative act. I think this to be an extremely dangerous precedent to set. Our ‘experience’ of government and its leaders over the last 5/6 years should be warning enough that any such action is massively open to abuse in the future by maverick and, sometimes desperate political figures.
The courts convicted these people and we have to move heaven and earth to find a quick and satisfactory way for the courts to find their convictions unsafe and for them to be dismissed.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jan 11, 2024 12:50:51 GMT 1
In 2010, replying to what he called an “offensive” brush-off from Sir Ed Davey, now the leader of the Liberal Democrats then the minister for postal affairs, Alan Bates wrote: “It is [precisely] because you have adopted an arm’s length relationship… [that] you have enabled them [the Post Office] to carry on with impunity regardless of the human misery and suffering they inflict...” He urged Davey not to simply “listen to civil servants” nor to act without questioning the Post Office’s claims. (An embattled Sir Ed now insists the Post Office was “lying on an industrial scale to me”. That’s no excuse. Alan Bates told him as much and he chose not to believe him. Not only that, Davey was later hired as a political consultant by top law firm Herbert Smith Freehills, which was acting for – guess who? – the Post Office! He was paid £833 per hour, amassing a grand total of £225,000. There’s a phrase for that kind of money, I believe. Perhaps Sir Ed Davey might like to call for the resignation of Sir Ed Davey?) Allison Pearson - Daily Telegraph. Davey (and others) have questions to answer about their ministerial inaction, for sure, but his subsequent consultancy doesn't seem relevant. And I can never take anything seriously that's uttered by the grotesque hypocrite, Allison Pearson. Yes. her article smacks of an attempt by the Tory press to deflect the blame.
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Post by ssshrew on Jan 11, 2024 13:05:58 GMT 1
There are an awful lot of people from all areas of this who need to be held to account- every single one of them whoever they are and regardless of the position they held at the time. It needs to happen as soon as possible and not be allowed to drag on.
As I’ve said before they ruined lives - it should be their turn now.
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Post by hectord0g137 on Jan 11, 2024 13:34:28 GMT 1
Please don't go off on one(I haven't voted tory in my seven decades) but wasn't it a Tory MP who shone the lights on this scandalous event after being approached by a constituent ? Hardly a party covering up anything
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Post by Minormorris64 on Jan 11, 2024 13:44:08 GMT 1
Please don't go off on one(I haven't voted tory in my seven decades) but wasn't it a Tory MP who shone the lights on this scandalous event after being approached by a constituent ? Hardly a party covering up anything Indeed, James Arbuthnott MP
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Post by servernaside on Jan 11, 2024 15:22:59 GMT 1
I hope they go completely bust to be honest. I would caveat I don't have anything against anyone who makes a living from them now, milk the barstewards if you can. I think you'll find that 'milking the barstewards' means the taxpayer will foot the bill.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 11, 2024 15:28:49 GMT 1
Please don't go off on one(I haven't voted tory in my seven decades) but wasn't it a Tory MP who shone the lights on this scandalous event after being approached by a constituent ? Hardly a party covering up anything Indeed, James Arbuthnot MP Who I believe at the time was in opposition. With the Tories being in government for so long people tend to forget that, I think Brown was PM at the time. There was also a Labour MP who I think was involved early on too as one of his constituents was also accused, I forget his name. Crazy to think Arbuthnot stood down in 2015. Crazy to think, from a quick look, that the first "Horizon convictions" were way back in 2000. This really hasn't been our finest hour...
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Post by staffordshrew on Jan 11, 2024 16:07:14 GMT 1
There are an awful lot of people from all areas of this who need to be held to account- every single one of them whoever they are and regardless of the position they held at the time. It needs to happen as soon as possible and not be allowed to drag on. As I’ve said before they ruined lives - it should be their turn now. Needs careful handling though, don't want to see suicides amongst those who failed, nor scapegoats being made.
People also talk of relieving Fujitsu of government contracts, but, if lessons have been learnt, they might now be the best choice for some of those contracts.
The Post Office has to be stopped from being the investigator and the prosecutor of criminal cases. Their investigators have to be as well trained and careful as we expect from the police. The way things were done by the Post Office investigation team has the look of the old police "fitting up" of a suspect.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jan 11, 2024 16:10:05 GMT 1
Please don't go off on one(I haven't voted tory in my seven decades) but wasn't it a Tory MP who shone the lights on this scandalous event after being approached by a constituent ? Hardly a party covering up anything There are some excellent Tory MPs. But their hard work doesn't seem to prompt their leaders into action.
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Post by ssshrew on Jan 11, 2024 17:30:34 GMT 1
There are an awful lot of people from all areas of this who need to be held to account- every single one of them whoever they are and regardless of the position they held at the time. It needs to happen as soon as possible and not be allowed to drag on. As I’ve said before they ruined lives - it should be their turn now. Needs careful handling though, don't want to see suicides amongst those who failed, nor scapegoats being made.
People also talk of relieving Fujitsu of government contracts, but, if lessons have been learnt, they might now be the best choice for some of those contracts.
The Post Office has to be stopped from being the investigator and the prosecutor of criminal cases. Their investigators have to be as well trained and careful as we expect from the police. The way things were done by the Post Office investigation team has the look of the old police "fitting up" of a suspect.
I do agree but at the moment I am just so angry about it all that I want everybody responsible to be punished. If the worst that happens to the woman is that she’s returned her CBE then it’s just not good enough.
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Post by northwestman on Jan 11, 2024 22:48:48 GMT 1
In 2002, Fujitsu was involved in a story related to faulty ATMs that resulted in 2.5 million delayed debits. Then, in 2020, Fujitsu software supporting the operations of the Tokyo stock exchange failed causing the loss of a full day’s trading. The company’s president Takahito Tokita apologised profusely and a 50 per cent pay cut for four months. There was more contrition last June when 123 municipalities had to suspend the operation of a Fujitsu-based system to issue residence cards to holders of the country’s ‘My Number’ ID card. This followed a serious problem the previous month when machines in convenience stores issuing municipal certificates malfunctioned. The June problems were eventually blamed on those from May not being properly fixed. In an article from the BBC website, several former Fujitsu employees commented on the dysfunctional culture at the company. Apparently, Fujitsu is extremely reluctant to hire full-time high-quality software technicians for short-term projects. Instead, it relies on low-paid operatives in outsourced companies with the inevitable erratic and inconsistent results. www.spectator.co.uk/article/no-one-is-talking-about-fujitsu-in-japan/
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Post by northwestman on Jan 11, 2024 22:55:01 GMT 1
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/11/i-am-not-a-mafia-gangster-post-office-investigator-tells-horizon-inquiryAn investigator accused of acting like a “mafia gangster” when securing false convictions against post office operators has admitted softer charges were offered in exchange for silence over the culpability of the Horizon IT system. In several instances, the accused were told they could avoid a jail sentence if they kept quiet about the accounting system’s faults, as part of an aggressive strategy by the Post Office to protect their cases as they pursued them in the courts.
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Post by northwestman on Jan 12, 2024 11:50:20 GMT 1
The Michelle Mone methodology used to try to silence journalists revealing lies was employed by the Post Office as well. Hiring expensive lawyers to try to close down stories by threatening defamation actions:
The Post Office threatened and lied to the BBC in 2015 ahead of a Panorama programme with a Horizon whistleblower which exposed the scandal, the public broadcaster said.
The BBC said experts who were interviewed for the programme were sent intimidating letters by Post Office lawyers who also sent letters to the broadcaster, threatening to sue Panorama.
According to the BBC, senior Post Office managers also told the broadcaster at the time that no staff or the company who developed Horizon, Fujitsu, could access post office operators accounts, despite being warned four years earlier this was possible.
The BBC says the claims did not stop the programme, titled Trouble at the Post Office, but it did delay the broadcast of the show.
The Post Office has been contacted for comment. It told the BBC it will not comment while the public inquiry continues.
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Post by northwestman on Jan 12, 2024 19:31:16 GMT 1
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