|
Post by gobowenshrew on Jan 4, 2024 23:58:41 GMT 1
Binge-watched all four episodes tonight.
Can admit to shedding a tear on at least a couple of occasions.
Some great acting performances.
Incredible that a cover-up of that magnitude was allowed to happen.
|
|
|
Post by Minormorris64 on Jan 5, 2024 12:11:31 GMT 1
I watched the select committee hearing (https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/d05cb9e7-04d0-4d05-8a43-ddd74b1eecc0) that was part of the ITV show; they didn't need to dramatise that too much from the real events. The bloke (George) representing the National Federation of SPM (sits in middle) during first half of session defends Horizon and "The Brand"... but openly discusses a case (naming the individual), who I think is part of the show, and questions his claim? According to (https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/9a73af32-a8d7-4ead-ad17-dc92f2d9f131) SPM are auto enrolled into the federation and their subscriptions paid by the post office questioning their independence? Hope they all get the compensation they deserve asap. thanks for those links
|
|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 5, 2024 12:59:22 GMT 1
I don't think I have ever uttered the word "barstewards" to such an extent as I did watching this. You really have to admire the strength, persistence and tenacity of all those who pushed back against this. And throughout you just questioned again and again just how and why something like that can happen and was allowed to happen and over such a period of time. barstewards.
|
|
|
Post by Pilch on Jan 5, 2024 17:06:37 GMT 1
I overheard a postie getting ticked off yesterday for not electronically signing out again the previous day , he swore he had done, apparently no one else is having this problem he was told
|
|
|
Post by northwestman on Jan 5, 2024 17:10:18 GMT 1
In the 2019 New Year Honours, Vennells was appointed a Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE) "for services to the Post Office and to charity". In the aftermath of the Post Office scandal, the Communication Workers' Union has called for Vennells to be stripped of her CBE. An online campaign on the 38 Degrees website with a similar aim reached over 400,000 signatures in early 2024. (Wiki)
|
|
|
Post by northwestman on Jan 5, 2024 17:14:49 GMT 1
|
|
|
Post by northwestman on Jan 6, 2024 1:24:44 GMT 1
And about time too! www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/05/post-office-criminal-investigation-potential-horizon-accounting-fraudThe Post Office is under criminal investigation over “potential fraud offences” committed during the Horizon scandal, the Metropolitan police have confirmed for the first time. Officers are “investigating potential fraud offences arising out of these prosecutions”, for example “monies recovered from sub-postmasters [operators] as a result of prosecutions or civil actions”, Scotland Yard said on Friday evening. It is not clear whether the investigation relates to individual staff members or the Post Office as a corporate entity. It is not known how much cash was paid back for imaginary shortfalls but so far £151m has been paid in compensation. Operators claimed that tens of millions of pounds wrongly clawed back went into Post Office profits. The Met is already investigating two former Fujitsu experts, who were witnesses in the trials, for perjury and perverting the course of justice. Fujitsu is the company behind the Horizon software. The force said in the statement: “These potential offences arise out of investigations and prosecutions carried out by the Post Office.
|
|
|
Post by northwestman on Jan 7, 2024 22:39:22 GMT 1
www.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/07/post-office-suspected-of-more-wrongful-prosecutions-of-operators-over-horizonThe Post Office is suspected of wrongly prosecuting dozens more operators who part in a pilot scheme of the faulty Horizon system, the Guardian has been told. Amid growing anger over the treatment of postmasters whose lives have been ruined in the scandal, Whitehall sources have confirmed that a precursor scheme was rolled out in 1995 and 1996 to hundreds of branches in north-east England. After taking part in the pilot, at least two branch managers were prosecuted despite protesting that there was a glitch in the system, a senior Labour MP has claimed.
|
|
|
Post by Pilch on Jan 7, 2024 22:42:45 GMT 1
www.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/07/post-office-suspected-of-more-wrongful-prosecutions-of-operators-over-horizonThe Post Office is suspected of wrongly prosecuting dozens more operators who part in a pilot scheme of the faulty Horizon system, the Guardian has been told. Amid growing anger over the treatment of postmasters whose lives have been ruined in the scandal, Whitehall sources have confirmed that a precursor scheme was rolled out in 1995 and 1996 to hundreds of branches in north-east England. After taking part in the pilot, at least two branch managers were prosecuted despite protesting that there was a glitch in the system, a senior Labour MP has claimed. can see it but wouldn't it be great if all those on the prosecuting side end up in the other side of the dock, they certainly need to
|
|
|
Post by mattmw on Jan 8, 2024 9:51:54 GMT 1
Think three side issues emerge from the excellent tv doc/drama for me are
- The vital importance to maintain legal aid and access to it for everyone, so that people subject to these types off events can access good legal support without a need to bankrupt themselves (the UK legal system is in a right mess and also under attack from some politicians)
- How inviting “market forces” into essential services which everyone needs has been a disaster. Much of the Post Office response to the horizon issue was about saving money and making profits, nothing about public service
- How inept we are as a country in getting major IT systems to work properly. Along with horizon, a massive amount of money has gone into MOD, NHS, Work and Pension and other government systems that don’t work but have made massive sums of money for software companies and shareholders
|
|
|
Post by staffordshrew on Jan 8, 2024 14:27:11 GMT 1
Seems to have taken a prime time television programme on ITV to kick off righting the wrongs of this, should have happened years ago.
Now how about Fujitsu, the software developers, and the then Post Office chiefs being held to account. They were quite prepared to see good people bankrupted, jailed, and their lives ruined. Now it's time for retribution, including minimising the proportion of the compensation hard working taxpayers have to fork out.
|
|
|
Post by chirkshrew on Jan 8, 2024 16:03:32 GMT 1
Spot on Stafford......put them in the dock,and see how they like it....surely it will come to call....still going on after 20 yrs....that is unbelievable 🤦🤦😡😡
|
|
|
Post by tarporleyblue on Jan 8, 2024 16:24:40 GMT 1
The most tragic part of all this, amongst all the other suffering involved was the sad fact that a number of people their own lives due to this national scandal.
No amount of hand wringing will ever do, it's far too late for that.
|
|
|
Post by GlosShrew on Jan 8, 2024 18:39:45 GMT 1
The Nicky Campbell phone in this morning on Radio 5 - is well worth a listen. Includes a chat with the 'real' Jo Hamilton.
|
|
|
Post by northwestman on Jan 8, 2024 18:44:25 GMT 1
|
|
salop28
Salop Leisure League
Posts: 4
|
Post by salop28 on Jan 8, 2024 18:56:41 GMT 1
|
|
|
Post by staffordshrew on Jan 8, 2024 19:03:36 GMT 1
Too late to "win votes", he's just being reactive when he should have been proactive.
|
|
|
Post by Pilch on Jan 8, 2024 19:07:31 GMT 1
Joanne was the girl I was on about earlier, together with her chap Chas they are such a lovely couple and loved running the post office her son Ross mentioned was a member on here too ( I wont name the other son also a member here as hes not mentioned on there and not sure he'd want me to ), Chas (Nick) and Ross were regular season ticket holders, they even sponsored a comp we once ran on here I really hope they can get back what they deserve
|
|
|
Post by northwestman on Jan 9, 2024 11:26:44 GMT 1
Post Office Horizon is the one thing that is now on every politician’s mind since last week’s ITV drama. Though it was of little interest to many before that. I’ve sat through several urgent questions and statements on the scandal over the past 10 years and there’s never been more than 50 MPs in the chamber for any of them. So 600 MPs hadn’t given a toss. Including Sunak. I don’t recall him ever showing his face for one. But now Rish! has been watching the telly – or more likely, the public mood – and concluded something needs to be done. Though he doesn’t seem sure what. Someone should remind him that he’s the prime minister and the buck stops with him. There again, why bother? It’s not for much longer. John Crace - the Guardian.
|
|
|
Post by Minormorris64 on Jan 9, 2024 12:33:57 GMT 1
Post Office Horizon is the one thing that is now on every politician’s mind since last week’s ITV drama. Though it was of little interest to many before that. I’ve sat through several urgent questions and statements on the scandal over the past 10 years and there’s never been more than 50 MPs in the chamber for any of them. So 600 MPs hadn’t given a toss. Including Sunak. I don’t recall him ever showing his face for one. But now Rish! has been watching the telly – or more likely, the public mood – and concluded something needs to be done. Though he doesn’t seem sure what. Someone should remind him that he’s the prime minister and the buck stops with him. There again, why bother? It’s not for much longer. John Crace - the Guardian. And if he said nothing ?.................................
|
|
|
Post by staffordshrew on Jan 9, 2024 13:20:44 GMT 1
Post Office Horizon is the one thing that is now on every politician’s mind since last week’s ITV drama. Though it was of little interest to many before that. I’ve sat through several urgent questions and statements on the scandal over the past 10 years and there’s never been more than 50 MPs in the chamber for any of them. So 600 MPs hadn’t given a toss. Including Sunak. I don’t recall him ever showing his face for one. But now Rish! has been watching the telly – or more likely, the public mood – and concluded something needs to be done. Though he doesn’t seem sure what. Someone should remind him that he’s the prime minister and the buck stops with him. There again, why bother? It’s not for much longer. John Crace - the Guardian. And if he said nothing ?................................. That's the problem, he said nothing all those years he must have known of it and had the ability to do something about it, but didn't.
|
|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 9, 2024 14:27:49 GMT 1
Post Office Horizon is the one thing that is now on every politician’s mind since last week’s ITV drama. Though it was of little interest to many before that. I’ve sat through several urgent questions and statements on the scandal over the past 10 years and there’s never been more than 50 MPs in the chamber for any of them. So 600 MPs hadn’t given a toss. Including Sunak. I don’t recall him ever showing his face for one. But now Rish! has been watching the telly – or more likely, the public mood – and concluded something needs to be done. Though he doesn’t seem sure what. Someone should remind him that he’s the prime minister and the buck stops with him. There again, why bother? It’s not for much longer. John Crace - the Guardian. And if he said nothing ?................................. Lord knows who John Crace is but this has been going on for years and should have been resolved years ago. Not sure what Sunak has known throughout that time but from what we have read recently one or two MP's certainly knew what was happening and choose not to do anything about it (and considering their position, were better placed to do something than those MP's who actually did). Whatever ire I may have relating this this whole sorry episode I'll reserve for them (rather than Sunak).
|
|
|
Post by northwestman on Jan 9, 2024 14:53:30 GMT 1
Paula Vennells, the former Post Office boss, has announced that she is giving back her CBE in response to the controversy about the unsafe Horizon convictions. In a statement to PA Media she said:
I continue to support and focus on co-operating with the inquiry and expect to be giving evidence in the coming months.
I have so far maintained my silence as I considered it inappropriate to comment publicly while the inquiry remains ongoing and before I have provided my oral evidence.
I am, however, aware of the calls from sub-postmasters and others to return my CBE.
I have listened and I confirm that I return my CBE with immediate effect.
I am truly sorry for the devastation caused to the subpostmasters and their families, whose lives were torn apart by being wrongly accused and wrongly prosecuted as a result of the Horizon system.
I now intend to continue to focus on assisting the inquiry and will not make any further public comment until it has concluded.
The Guardian.
|
|
|
Post by staffordshrew on Jan 9, 2024 16:06:26 GMT 1
And if he said nothing ?................................. Lord knows who John Crace is but this has been going on for years and should have been resolved years ago. Not sure what Sunak has known throughout that time but from what we have read recently one or two MP's certainly knew what was happening and choose not to do anything about it (and considering their position, were better placed to do something than those MP's who actually did). Whatever ire I may have relating this this whole sorry episode I'll reserve for them (rather than Sunak). Grace is a parliamentary reporter/commentator. He says from his own observations "I’ve sat through several urgent questions and statements on the scandal over the past 10 years and there’s never been more than 50 MPs in the chamber for any of them. So 600 MPs hadn’t given a toss. Including Sunak. I don’t recall him ever showing his face for one".
So Sunak was well aware that it had been going on for years and turned a blind eye to it. As they say, the buck stops with the boss who ignored those urgent questions from those one or two MPs, who knew what was going on and did something about it by raising the matter in parliament.
|
|
|
Post by venceremos on Jan 9, 2024 16:30:05 GMT 1
Clearly a dreadful miscarriage of justice but I hope the upsurge in interest triggered by the drama doesn't stop at full restitution for the victims and appropriate retribution for the perpetrators (and by that I don't mean honours being handed back or retracted because the whole honours system is a corrupt farce already).
I think this demands a judge-led public enquiry because there are important principles at stake and lessons to be learned.
Our lives are increasingly governed by faceless institutions operating through impenetrable (except it seems to hackers) IT systems. The rights of the individual are at risk of being swamped by an over-reliance on systems that are regarded as, if not actually infallible, at least far more trustworthy and reliable than an isolated individual.
You fit in or you're left out. AI is only going to increase this dependence on computer systems; the computer output will be believed before the individual and the individual will rarely be able to demonstrate that the error might not be theirs.
The other shocking aspect of this case that warrants further enquiry is why our judicial system appears to have abandoned its fundamental principle - the presumption of innocence. Was it really the case that these persecuted individuals were made to prove their innocence rather than the Post Office prove their guilt? That's how it appears. And if that did happen, how was it allowed to happen? How did the judiciary not recognise that reliance on a computer system is not proof of guilt?
There are profound issues at stake for our future civil liberties and democracy that go beyond even the horrors of this appalling injustice. A public enquiry is essential.
|
|
|
Post by staffordshrew on Jan 9, 2024 16:47:42 GMT 1
The Post Office can take criminal cases to court without going through the CPS. that's got to stop.
"Post Office prosecutions can be traced back to 1683. The RSPCA and the Environment Agency are other examples of organisations that bring their own prosecutions to court".
As we saw in the case of the guy wrongly accused of rape and kept in prison for years because he would not "admit" to it, getting the innocent exonerated through the Criminal Cases Review Commission is hard work and works on guilty until proved innocent.
|
|
|
Post by jamo on Jan 9, 2024 21:50:48 GMT 1
Big developments today with the announcement that Vennells will renounce her CBE, the first of many decisions that will begin to reverse this travesty.
The legal powers that Royal Mail hold should now be removed forever.
|
|
|
Post by Pilch on Jan 9, 2024 21:54:41 GMT 1
Big developments today with the announcement that Vennells will renounce her CBE, the first of many decisions that will begin to reverse this travesty. The legal powers that Royal Mail hold should now be removed forever. I wonder if this could put the whole Royal Mail group into admin ? probably what they are after anyway
|
|
|
Post by northwestman on Jan 10, 2024 0:58:53 GMT 1
In 2010, replying to what he called an “offensive” brush-off from Sir Ed Davey, now the leader of the Liberal Democrats then the minister for postal affairs, Alan Bates wrote: “It is [precisely] because you have adopted an arm’s length relationship… [that] you have enabled them [the Post Office] to carry on with impunity regardless of the human misery and suffering they inflict...” He urged Davey not to simply “listen to civil servants” nor to act without questioning the Post Office’s claims. (An embattled Sir Ed now insists the Post Office was “lying on an industrial scale to me”.
That’s no excuse. Alan Bates told him as much and he chose not to believe him. Not only that, Davey was later hired as a political consultant by top law firm Herbert Smith Freehills, which was acting for – guess who? – the Post Office! He was paid £833 per hour, amassing a grand total of £225,000. There’s a phrase for that kind of money, I believe. Perhaps Sir Ed Davey might like to call for the resignation of Sir Ed Davey?)
Allison Pearson - Daily Telegraph.
|
|
|
Post by martinshrew on Jan 10, 2024 9:50:01 GMT 1
I hope they go completely bust to be honest.
|
|