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Post by Valerioch on Sept 26, 2023 19:50:44 GMT 1
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Post by SeanBroseley on Sept 26, 2023 21:56:52 GMT 1
The Conservative Party would be mad to resolve the situation because it is the biggest thing it can bang on about in the culture Wars. Seven bins won't cut it in comparison. Sense will prevail - the speech itself is a strong indicator of that.
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Post by mattmw on Sept 26, 2023 22:00:59 GMT 1
Starting her post election defeat Leadership bid early.
I think British Culture and how we integrate with each other is a very hard thing to define and nail down, and arguably changes over time. For me social status is far more of a barrier to integration than culture
The bit about changing definitions on refugees is all a bit old hat too. With climate change making large swaths of the globe uninhabitable the next 100 years are going to be defined by mass migrations of a scale never seen before. Old systems of dealing with this level of change will very soon be a thing of the past
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Post by Valerioch on Sept 26, 2023 22:07:29 GMT 1
Starting her post election defeat Leadership bid early. I think British Culture and how we integrate with each other is a very hard thing to define and nail down, and arguably changes over time. For me social status is far more of a barrier to integration than culture The bit about changing definitions on refugees is all a bit old hat too. With climate change making large swaths of the globe uninhabitable the next 100 years are going to be defined by mass migrations of a scale never seen before. Old systems of dealing with this level of change will very soon be a thing of the past Out of interest, what do you define as large swathes of the globe? Personally don’t think I agree with that statement but interested to see what you mean |
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Post by Valerioch on Sept 26, 2023 22:09:42 GMT 1
The Conservative Party would be mad to resolve the situation because it is the biggest thing it can bang on about in the culture Wars. Seven bins won't cut it in comparison. Sense will prevail - the speech itself is a strong indicator of that. Don’t agree with that - I bet their polling would shoot up if they stopped the boats tomorrow |
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Post by mattmw on Sept 26, 2023 22:33:10 GMT 1
Starting her post election defeat Leadership bid early. I think British Culture and how we integrate with each other is a very hard thing to define and nail down, and arguably changes over time. For me social status is far more of a barrier to integration than culture The bit about changing definitions on refugees is all a bit old hat too. With climate change making large swaths of the globe uninhabitable the next 100 years are going to be defined by mass migrations of a scale never seen before. Old systems of dealing with this level of change will very soon be a thing of the past Out of interest, what do you define as large swathes of the globe? Personally don’t think I agree with that statement but interested to see what you mean Approximately 20% of the currently occupied land mass is likely to be uninhabitable by 2100 its currently around 3% - mostly around the equator and southern hemisphere due to heat, but the rising sea levels in the northern hemisphere will displace a lot of people too. Probably around a 1.5 billion people having to relocate Then there is the knock on impact on food production And New diseases and infections caused by the changes in temperature Plus leaders probably lobbing a new types of warfare in the pot and people will be scattering left right and centre There’s not too much point worrying about it as there is not much to be done to change it now, but the next mass extermination on earth is us |
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Post by kenwood on Sept 26, 2023 22:40:53 GMT 1
Out of interest, what do you define as large swathes of the globe? Personally don’t think I agree with that statement but interested to see what you mean Approximately 20% of the currently occupied land mass is likely to be uninhabitable by 2100 its currently around 3% - mostly around the equator and southern hemisphere due to heat, but the rising sea levels in the northern hemisphere will displace a lot of people too. Probably around a 1.5 billion people having to relocate Then there is the knock on impact on food production And New diseases and infections caused by the changes in temperature Plus leaders probably lobbing a new types of warfare in the pot and people will be scattering left right and centre There’s not too much point worrying about it as there is not much to be done to change it now, but the next mass extension on earth is us ….but the next mass “Extermination “on earth is us . Is that what you meant to write ? |
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Post by Valerioch on Sept 26, 2023 22:43:28 GMT 1
Thanks, as expected I don’t agree with that somewhat cataclysmic view in just 80 years, there’s science and arguments to support and oppose all views on climate change, only yesterday I was reading all mammals will be extinct in 250 million years when earth will be 1 inhabitable continent
What is clear in the here and now is the status quo cannot continue, Suella needs to get a grip and stand by her words today
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Post by mattmw on Sept 27, 2023 6:19:52 GMT 1
Approximately 20% of the currently occupied land mass is likely to be uninhabitable by 2100 its currently around 3% - mostly around the equator and southern hemisphere due to heat, but the rising sea levels in the northern hemisphere will displace a lot of people too. Probably around a 1.5 billion people having to relocate Then there is the knock on impact on food production And New diseases and infections caused by the changes in temperature Plus leaders probably lobbing a new types of warfare in the pot and people will be scattering left right and centre There’s not too much point worrying about it as there is not much to be done to change it now, but the next mass extension on earth is us ….but the next mass “Extermination “on earth is us . Is that what you meant to write ? Haha yes extermination was the word! Stupid auto correct |
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Post by mattmw on Sept 27, 2023 6:31:10 GMT 1
Thanks, as expected I don’t agree with that somewhat cataclysmic view in just 80 years, there’s science and arguments to support and oppose all views on climate change, only yesterday I was reading all mammals will be extinct in 250 million years when earth will be 1 inhabitable continent What is clear in the here and now is the status quo cannot continue, Suella needs to get a grip and stand by her words today Aside from my doom filled misspelled thoughts, the chances of any significant change in immigration policy in this Parliament is unlikely, as there isn’t time to get it through the legislative programme before the election Since 2010 the government has introduced 11 different bills on immigration including the most recent one in 2023 which passed in the Spring. Last year immigration levels hit a record high so legislation in itself isn’t a solution to the issue |
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Post by martinshrew on Sept 27, 2023 9:39:44 GMT 1
I wouldn't necessarily agree with it, but any party that stops handing things out on a plate to migrants will win votes, I think plenty are just simply fed up with the ongoing situation and costs.
Anyone who drops here by illegal means should be excluded for life, no case, no appeal. You're in France, a perfectly safe, law abiding European country, follow due process. That said, if we follow that approach, we've got to ramp up the speed of applications.
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Post by davycrockett on Sept 27, 2023 10:45:45 GMT 1
Thanks, as expected I don’t agree with that somewhat cataclysmic view in just 80 years, there’s science and arguments to support and oppose all views on climate change, only yesterday I was reading all mammals will be extinct in 250 million years when earth will be 1 inhabitable continent What is clear in the here and now is the status quo cannot continue, Suella needs to get a grip and stand by her words today Make friends with the French and stop them setting off. £2.28 billion this year alone would sort it, you’d never see another boat. |
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Post by davycrockett on Sept 27, 2023 10:51:43 GMT 1
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Sept 27, 2023 10:54:57 GMT 1
I wouldn't necessarily agree with it, but any party that stops handing things out on a plate to migrants will win votes, I think plenty are just simply fed up with the ongoing situation and costs. Anyone who drops here by illegal means should be excluded for life, no case, no appeal. You're in France, a perfectly safe, law abiding European country, follow due process. That said, if we follow that approach, we've got to ramp up the speed of applications. I think she is looking to the bigger picture. When I also look to the recent scenes from Lampedusa for example, I personally think only (and pardon my French) complete ****wits can deem that to be sustainable. I don't think it can continue as is otherwise it will bring about a great deal of problems for Europe. I think even Macron joined in yesterday with something along the lines of (and I am paraphrasing here) "we can not host all who would wish to live in Europe". I don't think we can. You can only accommodate a certain number of people before infrastructure and services begin to buckle. Even New York, to a degree, is starting to see this, for example (as Braverman also mentioned). And without any deterrent (whether to help people build a better life where they are or to stop people from migrating to Europe) then we will see more and more people looking to enter Europe (with most appearing to be young men, who I gather have the means and money to pay people trafficker's to jump the queue when I am sure there are others more in need of help...but we can not as we have no more resources available to do so). Thought most of the speech was decent enough and needed to be said. An awful lot of it just sounded like common sense to me. But then we know that an awful lot of people today struggle with that. But we are starting to hear the same here in Germany, even the SPD seem to be waking up to things... Germany will impose checks on borders with Poland and Czech Republic, official saysOf course that might well be driven by the increase in support for the AFD here (who now outpoll the SPD) but that is also in no small part due to immigration. Not sure you have listened to the full speech but its worth a listen. |
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Post by mattmw on Sept 27, 2023 11:12:53 GMT 1
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Post by wookeywombat on Sept 27, 2023 15:13:40 GMT 1
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Post by Valerioch on Sept 27, 2023 15:37:00 GMT 1
In my opinion that's total nonsense, all Brexit has done is make their route in harder, hence boat crossings going up The only deterrant is to send them straight back to the French coast and deport those in Hotels. As long as we are seen as a soft touch (free luxury hotels), the numbers will keep piling in, undocumented, and putting further strain on all services. One thing I would refer to Brexit is this is a Europe wide issue that needs a strong EU response, Italy is up s**t creek, what a mess, I bet if we started sending them back to France the EU would soon wake up |
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Post by SeanBroseley on Sept 27, 2023 15:59:24 GMT 1
Remember, if we're debating why multiculturalism has failed we're not debating why real wages are falling or why 500 additional people a week are dying because of the state of the NHS. That's the purpose of Braverman's speech.
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Post by wookeywombat on Sept 27, 2023 17:30:52 GMT 1
In my opinion that's total nonsense, all Brexit has done is make their route in harder, hence boat crossings going up The only deterrant is to send them straight back to the French coast and deport those in Hotels. As long as we are seen as a soft touch (free luxury hotels), the numbers will keep piling in, undocumented, and putting further strain on all services. One thing I would refer to Brexit is this is a Europe wide issue that needs a strong EU response, Italy is up s**t creek, what a mess, I bet if we started sending them back to France the EU would soon wake up The whole point is we COULD send them back to France prior to Brexit but that agreement expired when we left the EU. The article actually explains all this and the reason why the influx of boat crossings. "By the time of the Brexit referendum, many public attitude surveys indicated migration as the main concerns for British voters. It didn’t matter that Britain hadn’t experienced a so-called ‘refugee crisis’ first-hand, or that relative to other EU members states the UK only received a very small number of asylum applications. Indeed, it largely seemed to have escaped notice that it was the UK’s membership of the EU and consequent participation in EU-wide migration governance mechanisms that prevented the Mediterranean ‘refugee crisis’ from becoming a British ‘border crisis’. The anti-immigration narratives at the heart of the Leave campaign would continue to drive the political agenda, Brexit narrated and enacted by consecutive Conservative governments as a mandate to take back control of the UK’s borders." |
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Post by Valerioch on Sept 27, 2023 18:52:07 GMT 1
Remember, if we're debating why multiculturalism has failed we're not debating why real wages are falling or why 500 additional people a week are dying because of the state of the NHS. That's the purpose of Braverman's speech. 500 additional people are dying due to lockdown |
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Post by SeanBroseley on Sept 28, 2023 0:34:44 GMT 1
Put simply net legal immigration into the UK was recently reported to be 600,000. Braverman concentrates her speech on what she calls illegal immigrants. Her definition of illegal immigrant is one that has travelled from a safe country to the UK to claim asylum. This is a definition in her head. There is no obligation to claim asylum in the first safe country people land in, although the practical situation is that the vast majority do this.
There is a logical problem with saying people should claim asylum in the first safe country they arrive in: it means that certain countries - neighbouring countries to ones striven by conflict and countries on the edge of Europe - will become genuinely swamped in a way that the UK has never remotely experienced (or is likely to). 76% of refugees are in middle and low income countries. So the West is not taking a disproportionately large number of refugees. within Europe, Germany is taking 300,000, France 200,000. The UK 80,000. This is the level she is at.
Braverman criticised the Refugee Convention. But the Refugee Convention allows countries to send asylum seekers who have arrived in this country from another safe country. In this regard only the problem is that the UK has not replaced the EU agreements with a bilateral agreement with France following leaving the EU. Too busy negotiating trade deals with Papua New Guinea and the like. An example of separation between actions and what is said typical of a politician seeking to stoke culture war talking points.
Braverman's speech also focussed on sexual orientation as a basis of asylum claims. In 2022 there were 1,330 claims for asylum where sexual orientation formed part of the claim. These people already have to demonstrate persecution not just that they are homosexual. They also have to prove that they are homosexual. (figure how they do that). So she is actively misrepresenting what current policy is. This is her seven bins speech.
So that is 1,330 vs 600,000. This is the level she's at.
We also don't hear enough that the West's penchant for military intervention and/or economic sanctions destablising countries - Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Iran.
So what do you do? 1) Change your foreign policy 2) Process the claims. In short - better government.
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Post by staffordshrew on Sept 28, 2023 14:48:28 GMT 1
The speech of someone needing to cover up her own failings as a Home Secretary and establish herself as a possble leadership contender of a very broken party. A leaf out of the Boris book of big talking bluster.
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Post by Valerioch on Oct 3, 2023 16:48:21 GMT 1
Another excellent speech from Ms Braverman today
BBC recap:
Ministers would bring forward legislation to prevent sex offenders from changing their names and gender
She branded the Human Rights Act - a law sets minimum standards for everyone in the UK, whether a citizen or an asylum seeker, on things like a right to a fair trial and protection against discrimination - as the "Criminal Rights Act"
She warned the world was facing a "hurricane" of migration and said past governments had failed to recognise the scale of the problem
The home secretary asserted the Conservatives would remain strong on policing, and thanked armed police officers for the "vital work that you do"
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Post by mattmw on Oct 3, 2023 17:37:31 GMT 1
Another excellent speech from Ms Braverman today BBC recap: Ministers would bring forward legislation to prevent sex offenders from changing their names and gender She branded the Human Rights Act - a law sets minimum standards for everyone in the UK, whether a citizen or an asylum seeker, on things like a right to a fair trial and protection against discrimination - as the "Criminal Rights Act" She warned the world was facing a "hurricane" of migration and said past governments had failed to recognise the scale of the problem The home secretary asserted the Conservatives would remain strong on policing, and thanked armed police officers for the "vital work that you do" Definitely lining herself up for a leadership challenge post the next election as there is no time left in the legislation programme to deliver all of this. Presuming the Conservatives are in opposition after the election it looks like there are aiming for a more right of centre approach on immigration, tax, welfare and climate change, and also see some MPs suggesting Farage should rejoin the party which would reinforce the party as very much pro Brexit. Will be interesting to see if more centralist candidates like Jeremy Hunt and Penny Mordulant stand and what the general party direction is post election I think she is right that mass migration will be a key issue of the next decade, but don’t think an isolationist approach to the issue will help. |
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Post by SeanBroseley on Oct 3, 2023 18:09:30 GMT 1
If only Braverman and her party could have done something about The Human Rights Act in the last 13 years.
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Post by Worthingshrew on Oct 3, 2023 22:14:05 GMT 1
She’s right in that mass migration is likely due to global warming and climate change. I don’t agree with her demonisation of migrants though.
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Post by northwestman on Nov 8, 2023 11:13:32 GMT 1
www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/08/tory-insiders-suggest-suella-braverman-trying-to-get-sackedIs Braverman trying to get sacked? Suella Braverman has been accused of daring No 10 to sack her with provocative comments designed to cement her position as the right wing front runner to succeed Rishi Sunak as Conservative leader. Former ministers and Tory insiders claim that the home secretary is deliberately making unauthorised statements on homelessness, demonstrations and multiculturalism to woo the party’s hard-right base.
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Post by kenwood on Nov 8, 2023 20:18:24 GMT 1
www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/08/tory-insiders-suggest-suella-braverman-trying-to-get-sackedIs Braverman trying to get sacked? Suella Braverman has been accused of daring No 10 to sack her with provocative comments designed to cement her position as the right wing front runner to succeed Rishi Sunak as Conservative leader. Former ministers and Tory insiders claim that the home secretary is deliberately making unauthorised statements on homelessness, demonstrations and multiculturalism to woo the party’s hard-right base. That’s very interesting NWM . From what I understand from reading various “ snippets “ in the press Kemi Badenoch is being put forward as the right wing front runner . I find it also somewhat amusing that that insidious individual Braverman could succeed Sunak . After supporting the useless Truss in her bid to be Conservative leader , when Truss became PM she became Home Secretary. Although she resigned for breaching the Ministerial Code she was reinstated by Sunak roughly 6 days later as he became PM. One thing you can say about Braverman, she’s a survivor . |
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Post by northwestman on Nov 8, 2023 20:48:09 GMT 1
www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/08/tory-insiders-suggest-suella-braverman-trying-to-get-sackedIs Braverman trying to get sacked? Suella Braverman has been accused of daring No 10 to sack her with provocative comments designed to cement her position as the right wing front runner to succeed Rishi Sunak as Conservative leader. Former ministers and Tory insiders claim that the home secretary is deliberately making unauthorised statements on homelessness, demonstrations and multiculturalism to woo the party’s hard-right base. That’s very interesting NWM . From what I understand from reading various “ snippets “ in the press Kemi Badenoch is being put forward as the right wing front runner . I find it also somewhat amusing that that insidious individual Braverman could succeed Sunak . After supporting the useless Truss in her bid to be Conservative leader , when Truss became PM she became Home Secretary. Although she resigned for breaching the Ministerial Code she was reinstated by Sunak roughly 6 days later as he became PM. One thing you can say about Braverman, she’s a survivor . True enough, but Braverman was only reinstated as Home Secretary by Sunak after she and her backers agreed to support Sunak in his leadership bid, thereby squeezing out Mordaunt by a handful of votes from her name being put to the Membership, who having already rejected Sunak for Truss, would more than likely have rejected him again. But with Mordaunt not getting enough votes, Sunak never had to put himself up before the Membership for a second time. |
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Post by kenwood on Nov 9, 2023 10:02:37 GMT 1
Of course , your bang on . I somehow forgot the Mordaunt position .
Sunak in charge without ever having to go to the Country , allowed in by the Tory Party membership .
I see Braverman is now going all out to get sacked . It is suggested she wants to be a martyr for the right wing element of her party , hoping their support will see her become leader of , probably , the next opposition party .
I say probably because Starmer is doing his best to f.ck up Labours chances at the next GE .
Just think, Prime Minister Braverman and her right wing loonies running the Country assisted by the right wing press spouting more s**te than even she is capable off . An absolute nightmare .she’ll be flying planes herself to Rwanda . 😂
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