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Post by wookeywombat on Jan 12, 2023 9:36:19 GMT 1
It doesn't help that Health Education Services have been cut back or abolished as is the case with Shropshire County Council
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Post by Worthingshrew on Jan 12, 2023 11:25:17 GMT 1
The 80:20 rule applies to the NHS as elsewhere. 20% of the population consume 80% of the resources. Of course this is an approximation but there are a few people with multiple health issues who are frequently in hospital, at the GP, and consume much medication. This isn’t a criticism, just an observation.
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The NHS
Jan 12, 2023 13:05:25 GMT 1
via mobile
Post by GrizzlyShrew on Jan 12, 2023 13:05:25 GMT 1
Very good post One factor (of many) why we had so many Covid related deaths was due to the fact we are, on average, a fat and unhealthy nation - I can speak for myself in the my fitness isn't where I want it Both very good points. I myself am a smoker of over 40 years and about half a stone overweight, so at some stage there is a good chance that I will need the NHS. Hopefully not for a good few years.
Most people try to not be a burden on the NHS and only visit their GP when they really need to, but others will turn up at A&E for slightest ailment. It a bit like the welfare state, most see it as safety net, while a tiny minority see it as a hammock. The issue is that the media always find the ink to whine about the (very) few abusing or taking advantage of the systems, while ignoring the (vast) majority that do their utmost to avoid putting those systems under any sort of pressure.
That of course is a media issue. Overstate what they want you to beleive, the more sensible of us understand this and look to question and work out the truth from that. Covid (and the media headlines) surely taught us question everything the media state.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jan 12, 2023 18:07:19 GMT 1
Why are we still having strikes? Isn't it about time Barclay, Sunak and co got something sorted? Going to have to do something in the end!
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Post by armchairfan on Jan 12, 2023 20:02:54 GMT 1
First of all, my apologies for not continuing sooner with details of my own experience; whatever I had has left me rather weak, mentally and physically, to the extent that everything - even merely thinking - seems to demand more energy than I have available. However, in short, I spent a few hours in my ambulance waiting for a bed in A&E; at all times, I was constantly monitored by the excellent ambulance staff, and whilst uncomfortable, I was in no discomfort, and remained a patient patient, recognising that not everything can work smoothly all of the time. As I lay in the ambulance, I did give some thought as to the "state of the NHS" and reached, I believe, some decidedly unpalatable and politically unacceptable - indeed politically suicidal conclusions: the first one was that the NHS,as presently constituted is inefficient, other than in its ability to absorb ever greater sums of money from the Treasury - our taxes - with negligible improvements in the service it was set up to provide and in this there is probably broad agreement across the political spectrum: Labour will say it it is "broken"; Conservatives will say it is unaffordable in its present form; to my mind, both analyses are correct, but until someone - and it would have to be a non politician, an individual not dependent upon votes - can produce a new Beveridge report, focused upon the needs and requirements of an ageing 21st century population, we will be forever searching for expensive "sticking-plasters" without getting to the real roots of the problem. So, you may ask, what is the root cause of the NHS problem? At the risk of causing offence, I would venture that this lies in the nature of the genuinely socialist ideals of one man: Aneurin Bevan; that he was a visionary cannot reasonably be denied; that his vision was based upon the needs of an impoverished post-war population is equally undeniable - as a government Minister, how else was he to act, and for thus I blame him not one bit. My argument is that the very Socialist approach carried within it the seeds of failure: I believe that when Bevan articulated his vision of a service which was free to all at the point of delivery, it was pointed out to him that his vision would consume an ever-growing proportion of our national wealth, to which his reply was, in essence, let it....at the expense, of course, of all other areas of governance which we entrust to our elected Parliament. Leaving aside for a moment the idioticies of the such political nonsences, we have to accept that the paradigms upon which the NHS was founded in the 1940s do not apply in the 2020s; in a phrase attributed to John Maynard Keynes "when the facts change, I change my mind" (or something like that, sorry. The NHS may well be, to paraphrase Nigel Lawson our new religion, but in my view it has become a sacred cow , the basic precepts of which no democratic politician dare question. In a democracy, this is not healthy!
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The NHS
Jan 12, 2023 20:43:03 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2023 20:43:03 GMT 1
The Kings Fund (and others) have, on more than one occasion suggested changes to our health and social care systems.
These changes will take time but, politics being what it is no Government has been willing or able to commit to a long term vision for health and social care in this country. Yes, they talk about it but are either unwilling or unable to ditch party lines and work as a coalition to achieve the changes needed for the 21st century.
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Post by darkshrew on Jan 13, 2023 9:06:03 GMT 1
The NHS no longer works in its current form - the sooner the politicians stop vilifying anyone who suggests a new direction the better. A long term vision is desperately needed.
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Post by ProudSalopian on Jan 13, 2023 10:47:05 GMT 1
The NHS no longer works in its current form - the sooner the politicians stop vilifying anyone who suggests a new direction the better. A long term vision is desperately needed. Absolutely. I saw the below article yesterday, it's a horrendous story but I suspect it will be common place up & down the country. I probably have told this story before but my dad was waiting hours for an ambulance, finally one arrived but only to park up outside Shrewsbury Hospital and be told he would be having a long wait before he could get into hospital. After a few hours he got impatient and decided to discharge himself (they give him the ok to do so), we went to pick him up and I'll never forget the paramedic apologising and saying the NHS is broken People keep saying more investment is needed and perhaps it is, however throwing more money at it, isn't going to solve all the problems www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64243044
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The NHS
Jan 14, 2023 21:19:34 GMT 1
Post by ProudSalopian on Jan 14, 2023 21:19:34 GMT 1
Another classic NHS working like a well oiled machine story today. A member of my family has been in hospital this week and was told yesterday that they were hopeful that he could come home today. I've found out that he's still in and will be till Monday at the earliest, the reason for this is not because they think he should stay in but because there is no doctor on his ward to sign him off. Apart from the obvious inconvenience to him that he's got to spend another 2 nights in hospital when he could be ok to go home, there is also the fact that we hear that there is a shortage of beds, yet we have someone in hospital when they could be at home. I wonder how many other instances of this there are.
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The NHS
Jan 16, 2023 10:58:19 GMT 1
Post by staffordshrew on Jan 16, 2023 10:58:19 GMT 1
That being stuck there for the weekend 'cos there's no one to sign them off is very common. When my wife was terminally ill she got so fed up of it she once discharged herself, telling them she didn't have time to spare to wait for them, that sharpened things up! Meanwhie, could this initiative help the situation? link "MOTs" for patients who take up many of the beds Now Jeremy Hunt said in his book last year that the NHS needed more invstment. Well, he's in charge of the purse strings now, so invest in this perhaps?
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Post by ProudSalopian on Jan 16, 2023 11:31:40 GMT 1
Whilst I'm very cynical of politicians and what they say versus what they do, this is promising from Starmer. There's a few key things for me, the last 2 points show that he's living in the real world 1) He talks of reform, he appears to have accepted its not as simple as throwing money at it and it has to change 2) The statement of "He argued the idea the NHS is still the envy of the world is "plainly wrong" is correct, too many people genuinely believe this. 3) The statement of "arguing that the NHS should not be "off-limits [or] treated as a shrine rather than a service". This again is spot on, too many people are afraid to criticise the health service because it's been politicised so much. We saw this so much during covid. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64279654
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Post by armchairfan on Jan 16, 2023 11:51:30 GMT 1
Whilst I'm very cynical of politicians and what they say versus what they do, this is promising from Starmer. There's a few key things for me, the last 2 points show that he's living in the real world 1) He talks of reform, he appears to have accepted its not as simple as throwing money at it and it has to change 2) The statement of "He argued the idea the NHS is still the envy of the world is "plainly wrong" is correct, too many people genuinely believe this. 3) The statement of "arguing that the NHS should not be "off-limits [or] treated as a shrine rather than a service". This again is spot on, too many people are afraid to criticise the health service because it's been politicised so much. We saw this so much during covid. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64279654Sir Keir Starmer appears to be on track to saying the unsayable (the political suicide note to which I referred earlier) and for this he has apparently earned the disapproval of both thetwo sets of vested interests - the unions and the BMA; if he stays on this track, he has more bravery than I had thought, and I wish him well.....if.
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The NHS
Jan 16, 2023 13:11:12 GMT 1
Post by zenfootball2 on Jan 16, 2023 13:11:12 GMT 1
We have an ageing population two things need to be sorted out Social care and we have to decide do we want a free at entry point healthcare for all health service, if we do it needs reforming as it is inefficient and then we have to accept higher taxes to pay for it. or we find another system Canada has a combination of public health and private the french insurances health care system seems to work well what no one would want is the American system and with the Conservatives that is what we would get
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The NHS
Jan 16, 2023 13:26:38 GMT 1
Post by staffordshrew on Jan 16, 2023 13:26:38 GMT 1
Start by sorting social care, then be proactive to try to reduce the 40% bed useage the 4% of "frail" people use by fixing little health problems before they become big ones.
Plenty of new techiques and medical strategies in the pipeline that should drastically reduce costs.
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Post by armchairfan on Jan 16, 2023 14:14:19 GMT 1
We have an ageing population two things need to be sorted out Social care and we have to decide do we want a free at entry point healthcare for all health service, if we do it needs reforming as it is inefficient and then we have to accept higher taxes to pay for it. or we find another system Canada has a combination of public health and private the french insurances health care system seems to work well what no one would want is the American system and with the Conservatives that is what we would get In general, thoughts which are not entirely without merit, other than your assertion regarding "the American system" : it won't come in here because as you rightly suggest, noone would want it and NO political party in this country is foolish enough to risk consigning itself to political oblivion, least of all the Conservative Party which prizes its survival highly. That there is, somewhere, a solution that will command broad, but probably not universal, support must be our belief, and to that extent, Sir Keir's reacquaintance with Reality is to be welcomed.
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The NHS
Jan 16, 2023 15:48:36 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2023 15:48:36 GMT 1
My wife is not a happy bunny this afternoon.
She has a problem with her ears, and, following a GP visit was advised that she would be referred to the local ENT department for further investigations. The referral was made last November. She has today been informed that it will be not 18 weeks before she gets seen, but 18 months.
She has gone back to her GP and the only advice is....go private!
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The NHS
Jan 16, 2023 17:03:31 GMT 1
via mobile
Post by GrizzlyShrew on Jan 16, 2023 17:03:31 GMT 1
My wife is not a happy bunny this afternoon. She has a problem with her ears, and, following a GP visit was advised that she would be referred to the local ENT department for further investigations. The referral was made last November. She has today been informed that it will be not 18 weeks before she gets seen, but 18 months. She has gone back to her GP and the only advice is....go private! I understand from someone who works in the bookings department that some Shropshire Urology appointments are now into 2025....
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Jan 16, 2023 17:37:05 GMT 1
A few random thoughts.
Possibly the reason there’s a shortage of doctors at weekends is that there is a shortage of doctors. Those that remain want some time for a personal life. Three of my daughters former uni housemate were med students one became an ophthalmic surgeon working from the main hospital in Exeter, he and one other were the only surgeons available to cover Devon and Cornwall which basically meant he was on call 24/7. Weekends with their fights and drunken car crashes were especially busy. He resigned from front line practice and is now a researcher working office hours.
The second is a surgeon but considering his future because of stress, he is scared of making a fatal mistake because he often has to work tired. He is also inexperienced but says that supervision is inadequate and sometimes he has to perform procedures that he feels unqualified to do without the help of a consultant.
The third was a GP and has already quit. Interestingly she says that there’s not enough management in the NHS and that she was unable to practice medicine for a lot of her time because she had to be on the phone trying to find placements for patients with mental health problems, those who were the victims of abuse, drug addicts etc. Not to mention finding care facilities for her patients who were stuck in hospital. Joined up systems and people who could operate them would remove many frustrations from general practice.
I don’t agree with the comments about politicians not daring to think about NHS reform. As this is a huge problem that is likely to land in the lap of the Labour government in a couple of years I’m sure they’re giving it a lot of thought. Twice recently I’ve heard Alistair Campbell, who is to the left of Starmer, speak admiringly about the Dutch system. If it’s acceptable to an old lefty like him I guess it won’t be a problem for the current Tory lite Labour leadership.
There will be no quick fixes, we are behind our European neighbours in hospital beds, doctors and nurses and in the proportion of GDP we spend on healthcare. Plus we have a social care system that isn’t connected to the health system.
Up thread taking responsibility for our own health was mentioned, this is almost a taboo subject and proposed government efforts to improve diets or get people to exercise are derided by the press as nanny state and campaigned against by the hugely wealthy processed food and alcohol lobbies. Mrs ST and I are regarded as eccentric because we walk the mile and a half into town instead of driving and complaining that there’s nowhere to park.
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Post by davycrockett on Jan 16, 2023 17:46:42 GMT 1
My wife is not a happy bunny this afternoon. She has a problem with her ears, and, following a GP visit was advised that she would be referred to the local ENT department for further investigations. The referral was made last November. She has today been informed that it will be not 18 weeks before she gets seen, but 18 months. She has gone back to her GP and the only advice is....go private! I hear more and more stories like this and feel for those waiting who have to go private. However my recent experience has been more positive. Following a ruptured appendix in the summer which required key hole surgery through my belly button (sorry if your eating your tea) I ended up with an umbilical hernia. Not painful but getting worse so went to GP beginning of Nov. Referred to a specialist with appointment 30/11 and had an op in day surgery last Saturday (missed Burton 😔)…… 46 days later. Every Saturday at RSH they have a team from all over the country come to Shrewsbury to perform 6 to 10 operations that can be done under day surgery. The charge nurse was from Shrewsbury but the surgeon from London and another nurse from Colchester. None of us were that urgent and all surprised how quickly we’d received treatment.
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Post by zenfootball2 on Jan 18, 2023 9:58:24 GMT 1
My wife is not a happy bunny this afternoon. She has a problem with her ears, and, following a GP visit was advised that she would be referred to the local ENT department for further investigations. The referral was made last November. She has today been informed that it will be not 18 weeks before she gets seen, but 18 months. She has gone back to her GP and the only advice is....go private! im sorry to hear this but i would imagine this is going to be the advice GP's will give everyone. i started having an ear infection in novemeber i was treated by my GP but it was just getting worse so after 3 weeks i was refferd to ENT after a vist to A&E when my face started swelling up i was seen at ENT in Telford two weeks laters ,the clinic was full i went for another 3 weeks to telford which included me having to go to ward 8 as ENT was full. im now been seen on clinic 4 in Shrewsbury which is some kind of discharge unit so 5 weeks of having my ear drained and then filled with medication and im going again today. in telford i was seen by a Doctor in Shrewsbury ut was done by a clinical nurse specialist based on what iv seen it would seem demand is outstripping what the service can provide, which then goes down the route of training more staff and increasing the size of the clinic and this all depends on the budget available.
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The NHS
Jan 18, 2023 11:56:27 GMT 1
Post by staffordshrew on Jan 18, 2023 11:56:27 GMT 1
Government, grasp the nettle!
Or shuffle off and let the other lot have a go.
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The NHS
Jan 19, 2023 11:32:35 GMT 1
Post by staffordshrew on Jan 19, 2023 11:32:35 GMT 1
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Jan 19, 2023 12:07:27 GMT 1
Government, grasp the nettle! Or shuffle off and let the other lot have a go. Whoever is leading the country wont make ANY difference at all to the NHS. The problems run far deeper than any government and what they can throw at it.
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The NHS
Jan 19, 2023 12:48:39 GMT 1
Post by staffordshrew on Jan 19, 2023 12:48:39 GMT 1
Government, grasp the nettle! Or shuffle off and let the other lot have a go. Whoever is leading the country wont make ANY difference at all to the NHS. The problems run far deeper than any government and what they can throw at it. In your opinion. This mess all started with austerity, and we know which party did that. The party that told us the NHS was safe in their hands.
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The NHS
Jan 19, 2023 13:53:08 GMT 1
Post by ProudSalopian on Jan 19, 2023 13:53:08 GMT 1
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The NHS
Jan 19, 2023 14:13:00 GMT 1
via mobile
Post by armchairfan on Jan 19, 2023 14:13:00 GMT 1
Whoever is leading the country wont make ANY difference at all to the NHS. The problems run far deeper than any government and what they can throw at it. In your opinion.
This mess all started with austerity, and we know which party did that. The party that told us the NHS was safe in their hands.
In your opinion! An alternative view, which I posited upthread, is that the problems with the NHS had their roots in its very socialist foundations laid down by Aneurin Bevan: amongst other factors, any service set up to be "free" at some stage is always likely to be a service where demand will inevitably exceed supply; the current situation has worrying similarities with the conditions prevailing at the inception of the NHS: Mr Bevan apparently argued that, once the backlog caused by the war had been dealt with, demand for health services would decline - a catastrophically flawed misunderstanding of people's behaviour in the real world. Only my opinion, of course!
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The NHS
Jan 19, 2023 14:21:45 GMT 1
Post by staffordshrew on Jan 19, 2023 14:21:45 GMT 1
The NHS has experienced a decade of underfunding since 2010, despite cash boosts in 2018 and 2019. Between 2009-2019 the NHS budgets rose on average just 1.4% per year, compared to 3.7% average rises since the NHS was established. All against a background that we knew would happen, an aging population who would need more health care.
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Post by darkshrew on Jan 19, 2023 14:47:34 GMT 1
Political point scoring is not going to help the NHS but it is all that will happen.
The NHS is in crisis - the model is no longer fit for purpose - but for christ's sake give the nurses a decent pay rise and try and swell their ranks.
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The NHS
Jan 19, 2023 15:51:09 GMT 1
Post by ProudSalopian on Jan 19, 2023 15:51:09 GMT 1
The NHS has experienced a decade of underfunding since 2010, despite cash boosts in 2018 and 2019. Between 2009-2019 the NHS budgets rose on average just 1.4% per year, compared to 3.7% average rises since the NHS was established. All against a background that we knew would happen, an aging population who would need more health care. I've agreed that austerity did not not help. But I was pointing out that before that (and the Tories) the NHS was far from perfect and the 'winter crisis' is not a new thing. As others have alluded to, its not a Labour v Tory issue, perhaps there would be more investment under a Labour gov't and things would be better but with an ageing, growing and increasingly unhealtier population then I'd be pretty confident there would still be lots of issues because of the NHS model.
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Jan 19, 2023 18:26:31 GMT 1
Whoever is leading the country wont make ANY difference at all to the NHS. The problems run far deeper than any government and what they can throw at it. In your opinion. This mess all started with austerity, and we know which party did that. The party that told us the NHS was safe in their hands.
Come on. Whoever is in power will only have the money available to put a sticking plaster over the current NHS problems. It's going to take far more than any political party could ever do to give it the full body blood transfusion that the NHS needs to be fit for purpose once more. What is the answer? I dont know but political point scoring certainly wont be of any help at all.
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