Raab.

[northwestman]

Patel, Williamson, and now Raab. Seems that a bullying culture is very much in evidence.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/11/dominic-raab-behaviour-moj-staff-offered-route-out

Senior civil servants at the Ministry of Justice were offered “respite or a route out” of the department when Dominic Raab was reappointed last month, amid concerns that some were still traumatised by his behaviour during a previous stint there.

Several sources told the Guardian that about 15 members of staff from the justice secretary’s private office were taken into a room where departmental officials acknowledged they may be anxious about his behaviour and gave them the option of moving roles.

Some of the civil servants were said to have been in tears during the meeting and several subsequently decided to move to other positions in the department, with one thought to be considering leaving entirely, although sources suggested a couple of staff had since returned.

It is also understood that Antonia Romeo, the MoJ permanent secretary, had to speak to Raab when he returned to the department to warn him that he must treat staff professionally and with respect amid unhappiness about his return. One source, who was not in the room at the time, claimed she had “read him the riot act”.

The Guardian has spoken to multiple sources in the MoJ who claimed that Raab, who first held the post between September 2021 and September 2022, when he was sacked by Liz Truss, had created a “culture of fear” in the department.

They alleged that his behaviour when dealing with civil servants, including some in senior roles, was “demeaning rather than demanding”, that he was “very rude and aggressive” and that he “wasn’t just unprofessional, he was a bully”.

[northwestman]

www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/12/dominic-raab-facing-more-bullying-claims-from-time-as-brexit-secretary

Concerns over Dominic Raab’s behaviour towards officials were raised inside Whitehall during his time as Brexit secretary in 2018, the Observer has been told.

In the latest allegation against Raab over his conduct in government, a senior source said that a document outlining a “formal expression of concern” was dispatched to the Cabinet Office by a prominent official in the Brexit department.

It is understood that the document alleged “unprofessional, even bullying, conduct of the minister towards his private office”. A source with knowledge of the complaint said that no action was taken.

[ssshrew]

There does certainly seem to be an ‘entitled’ mindset in today’s Tory party.

[armchairfan]

Bullying?
Frankly, I find these accusations of non-physical "Bullying" laughable, and simply cannot understand why ANYONE could possibly feel "bullied" by mere words: the old saying about "sticks and stones" is eminently true and appropriate, in my opinion - to believe otherwise suggests a weakness of character: anyone on here is more than welcome to try and bully ME - I shall not cry, retreat into a quiet corner, nor seek the assistance of friends; PHYSICAL bullying is of course a different matter entirely.

[davycrockett]

Nov 12, 2022 21:13:45 GMT 1 armchairfan said:

Bullying?
Frankly, I find these accusations of non-physical "Bullying" laughable, and simply cannot understand why ANYONE could possibly feel "bullied" by mere words: the old saying about "sticks and stones" is eminently true and appropriate, in my opinion - to believe otherwise suggests a weakness of character: anyone on here is more than welcome to try and bully ME - I shall not cry, retreat into a quiet corner, nor seek the assistance of friends; PHYSICAL bullying is of course a different matter entirely.

Very strange opinion. I take it you think children that are bullied should just toughen up? Some quite tragic outcomes to bullying at all ages, but hey they’re just showing weakness so no matter.

[Valerioch]

One only had to see Raab doing the media rounds during Covid to get the impression he was a bit of a knobber

[armchairfan]

Nov 13, 2022 9:41:56 GMT 1 davycrockett said:

Nov 12, 2022 21:13:45 GMT 1 armchairfan said:

Bullying?
Frankly, I find these accusations of non-physical "Bullying" laughable, and simply cannot understand why ANYONE could possibly feel "bullied" by mere words: the old saying about "sticks and stones" is eminently true and appropriate, in my opinion - to believe otherwise suggests a weakness of character: anyone on here is more than welcome to try and bully ME - I shall not cry, retreat into a quiet corner, nor seek the assistance of friends; PHYSICAL bullying is of course a different matter entirely.

Very strange opinion. I take it you think children that are bullied should just toughen up? Some quite tragic outcomes to bullying at all ages, but hey they’re just showing weakness so no matter.

Yes, in essence, that is exactly what I think: by pandering to such reactions to so-called bullying, adults - people who should know better - are guilty of implying to their children that they can sail through life without a single word being said against them, which we all know to be a fallacious fantasy; consequently, what follows is this resort to accusations of "bullying", with the ultimate intention, I suspect, of closing down disagreement within debate: whilst I also suspect that the growth of "cancel-culture" is very much exaggerated by right-wing ideologues, that it exists at all should be a warning to us all that freedom of thought, expression and speech are concepts which we must continually cherish and defend - which is difficult to do when one's opinions can be silenced by such accusations. When one hears a contrary opinion, perhaps expressed firmly, debate, argue and defend your view, and be prepared to modify where necessary!

[davycrockett]

Nov 13, 2022 12:06:12 GMT 1 armchairfan said:

Nov 13, 2022 9:41:56 GMT 1 davycrockett said:

Very strange opinion. I take it you think children that are bullied should just toughen up? Some quite tragic outcomes to bullying at all ages, but hey they’re just showing weakness so no matter.

Yes, in essence, that is exactly what I think: by pandering to such reactions to so-called bullying, adults - people who should know better - are guilty of implying to their children that they can sail through life without a single word being said against them, which we all know to be a fallacious fantasy; consequently, what follows is this resort to accusations of "bullying", with the ultimate intention, I suspect, of closing down disagreement within debate: whilst I also suspect that the growth of "cancel-culture" is very much exaggerated by right-wing ideologues, that it exists at all should be a warning to us all that freedom of thought, expression and speech are concepts which we must continually cherish and defend - which is difficult to do when one's opinions can be silenced by such accusations. When one hears a contrary opinion, perhaps expressed firmly, debate, argue and defend your view, and be prepared to modify where necessary!

Really? I’d best not ask your opinion on coercive control, I suppose they’re just asking for it by showing weakness!

[shrewder]

Nov 13, 2022 9:41:56 GMT 1 davycrockett said:

Nov 12, 2022 21:13:45 GMT 1 armchairfan said:

Bullying?
Frankly, I find these accusations of non-physical "Bullying" laughable, and simply cannot understand why ANYONE could possibly feel "bullied" by mere words: the old saying about "sticks and stones" is eminently true and appropriate, in my opinion - to believe otherwise suggests a weakness of character: anyone on here is more than welcome to try and bully ME - I shall not cry, retreat into a quiet corner, nor seek the assistance of friends; PHYSICAL bullying is of course a different matter entirely.

Very strange opinion. I take it you think children that are bullied should just toughen up? Some quite tragic outcomes to bullying at all ages, but hey they’re just showing weakness so no matter.

Totally agree with you
Obviously someone who has never seen the consequences of how verbal bullying can totally destroy a person. Sometimes the bullying is by more than one person but on one individual. In such circumstances most people would struggle not to be effected by that situation. Clearly a lack of empathy which is certainly nothing to be proud of.

[staffordshrew]

Nov 12, 2022 21:13:45 GMT 1 armchairfan said:

Bullying?
Frankly, I find these accusations of non-physical "Bullying" laughable, and simply cannot understand why ANYONE could possibly feel "bullied" by mere words: the old saying about "sticks and stones" is eminently true and appropriate, in my opinion - to believe otherwise suggests a weakness of character: anyone on here is more than welcome to try and bully ME - I shall not cry, retreat into a quiet corner, nor seek the assistance of friends; PHYSICAL bullying is of course a different matter entirely.

No one should be subjected to verbal bullying in the workplace, school, etc.  It is just not the way to treat people and to get the best work out of them.

[ssshrew]

Social media also means there can be little escape from bullying as well.

[armchairfan]

I am less than convinced that "verbal bullying exists at all, other than in the minds of its alleged "victims", and they have been lead to believe erroneously some, that having an ill word directed at them, constitutes "bullying" and that playing the victimhood card will end any debate.....stuff and nonsense: I have been the target of much abuse over the years (not only in political exchanges) that perhaps being such a "victim" informs my opinions.....people had better stop being nasty and unkind to me.....lol

[staffordshrew]

Nov 13, 2022 13:53:59 GMT 1 ssshrew said:

Social media also means there can be little escape from bullying as well.

To some extent a little different?  Social media bullying:  Ditch social media.

Work or school?  Much harder to ditch - work = your livelehood, your mortgage, food on the table.,,

[shrewder]

In my time working I have seen excellent staff bullied by there manager just because they didn't like them , eventually forcing them out.

[ssshrew]

Nov 13, 2022 14:14:16 GMT 1 staffordshrew said:

Nov 13, 2022 13:53:59 GMT 1 ssshrew said:

Social media also means there can be little escape from bullying as well.

To some extent a little different?  Social media bullying:  Ditch social media.

Work or school?  Much harder to ditch - work = your livelehood, your mortgage, food on the table.,,

Agreed but I know that children do like their social media and some who use it to keep in touch with friends (particularly in rural areas) after school and then when bullying started it continued on that media.

Personally I loathe social media. This is the only place I am on.

I think the effect of verbal bullying is being greatly underestimated on here. Bullying at work can be lethal and undermining. I’ve never suffered from it but I know some who have and I would never belittle them or their feelings in any way.

[northwestman]

Well, in my 1st lecturing post in Blackburn, I had to endure a Head of Department who would shout and scream so much at individuals that he could be heard from the end of the corridor.

After I'd passed my interview and had been awarded my post, he was sorting out contract details with me when his phone rang. It was his daughter informing him she'd just got married. She'd not dared to tell him face to face.

I soon applied to get out of that College, and relocated to Manchester where I remained for over 30 years. I found out a few years later he'd died of a heart attack - unsurprising as he often went almost purple in the face whilst screaming at staff.

[staffordshrew]

Here is the modern approach to bullying:

"Parliament is committed to ensuring everyone working here feels supported, safe and positive. Parliament's Independent Complaints and Grievance Scheme (ICGS) is underpinned by the Behaviour Code, the Bullying and Harassment Policy, the Bullying and Harassment Procedure, the Sexual Misconduct Policy, and the Sexual Misconduct Procedure.

Our Behaviour Code makes clear the standards of behaviour expected of everyone in the parliamentary community, past or present. There is zero tolerance for abuse or harassment".

Here's the Daily Express questioning Raab's actions: www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1696380/Dominic-Raab-Rishi-Sunak-bullying-claims-row-escalates-simon-mcdonald

[Deleted]

It’s seems to be well known, or at least well reported that he’s a bit of an unpleasant and abrasive individual with a bit of a short fuse and not a very nice person to work for.

But is any of that a sackable offence. Does bollocking a member of staff count as bullying these days?

[ssshrew]

I would imagine it depends if it was deserved, I.e., inefficiency that had repercussions, repeated bad mistakes, or just something that needed dealing with. Bullying is surely repetitive telling off, making someone’s life unbearable, etc., with no good reason except habit or an unprofessional dislike of someone.

[ssshrew]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63624528

So that’s alright then!

[staffordshrew]

Nov 14, 2022 16:50:37 GMT 1 @feedoknasher said:

It’s seems to be well known, or at least well reported that he’s a bit of an unpleasant and abrasive individual with a bit of a short fuse and not a very nice person to work for.

But is any of that a sackable offence. Does bollocking a member of staff count as bullying these days?

Depends.  Is it constant beittleing or is praise offered sometimes for a job well done?

Which do you respond to best by the way?

[Deleted]

Nov 14, 2022 17:55:06 GMT 1 staffordshrew said:

Nov 14, 2022 16:50:37 GMT 1 @feedoknasher said:

It’s seems to be well known, or at least well reported that he’s a bit of an unpleasant and abrasive individual with a bit of a short fuse and not a very nice person to work for.

But is any of that a sackable offence. Does bollocking a member of staff count as bullying these days?

Depends.  Is it constant beittleing or is praise offered sometimes for a job well done?

Which do you respond to best by the way?

Obviously I, and I imagine almost everybody, prefers a supportive boss and are generally happier and more productive in the workplace when that’s the case. But my point is this - Raab should’ve been instantly sacked and not allowed another cabinet job after his mishandling of the Afghanistan Taliban situation as Foreign Secretary, and not because he threw a Pret A Manger across a room. Perspective.

[staffordshrew]

Nov 14, 2022 18:10:46 GMT 1 @feedoknasher said:

Nov 14, 2022 17:55:06 GMT 1 staffordshrew said:

Depends.  Is it constant beittleing or is praise offered sometimes for a job well done?

Which do you respond to best by the way?

Obviously I, and I imagine almost everybody, prefers a supportive boss and are generally happier and more productive in the workplace when that’s the case. But my point is this - Raab should’ve been instantly sacked and not allowed another cabinet job after his mishandling of the Afghanistan Taliban situation as Foreign Secretary, and not because he threw a Pret A Manger across a room. Perspective.

Yes, that was rather sackabe, but he got off light because the yanks dropped us in it if I remember rightly.

[northwestman]

'I do not recognise that' has been heard parroted time and time again by Government Ministers when they've been caught bang to rights on a particular issue.

It's a euphemism designed to obfuscate - and created purely to avoid the reality of admitting what they know to be true.
It's not denying that the accusation is wrong, whilst at the same time extricating themselves from acknowledging that it has any substance.

'Sunak does not recognise that characterisation' is a classic example.

Raab has used the phrase himself - UK Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab said he 'does not recognise' the figure of 7,000, reported by some newspapers as the number of British nationals left in Afghanistan.

[northwestman]

Yesterday Simon McDonald (now Lord Mcdonald), the former Foreign Office permanent secretary, gave an interview saying he was not surprised that staff viewed Dominic Raab as a bully when he was foreign secretary. Today he has gone further, telling Times Radio that many officials were “scared” to go into Raab’s office.

But at the time Raab was not aware of the impact his behaviour was having on people, McDonald said. He explained:

When I worked for him, Dominic Raab was not aware of the impact of his behaviour on the people working for him, and couldn’t be made to see that impact. Colleagues did not complain to me formally. It was kind of their professional pride to cope.

But many were scared to go into his office. His sort of defence was that he treated everyone in the building in the same way. He was as abrasive and controlling with junior ministers and senior officials, as he was with his private secretaries.

After I left, I heard that the outcome of the Priti Patel bullying investigation had a sobering effect on him. And for a time his behaviour improved.

Asked to explain how Raab’s behaviour was intimidating, McDonald said:

It was language, it was tone, he would be very curt with people. And he did this in front of a lot of other people. I think people felt demeaned.

McDonald said he was not aware of anyone submitting a formal complaint about Raab. But he said people were reluctant to complain because the system was seen as biased against them, and he said he hoped Rishi Sunak would reform the system for dealing with allegations of bullying. He said:

What we have at the moment is not fit for purpose. Action is only taken if there is a formal complaint and there is a feeling in the system that the system is stacked in favour of the minister or senior official. So people hesitate to make a formal complaint because of the effect on themselves.

This needs to be reworked. There needs to be somebody of seniority and independence and authority that can connect both with the prime minister and with the emerging subjects of such complaints.

The Guardian.

[northwestman]

www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/16/dominic-raab-calls-for-inquiry-into-complaints-against-him

Dominic Raab has formally requested an independent investigation into his conduct, after saying he has been told two formal complaints have been made against him in two ministerial roles. He said he hoped to stay in post while this took place.

In a letter to Rishi Sunak, Raab, who serves as justice secretary and deputy prime minister, said he had “just been notified” that two separate complaints had been made against him, one relating to his time as foreign secretary, and his first period as justice secretary, both under Boris Johnson.

It follows a series of allegations, reported by the Guardian and other publications, that a civil servant and others found Raab’s manner could be demeaning and overly abrupt, and that this did at time feel like bullying. Raab has repeatedly rejected any wrongdoing.

It is not clear who will investigate the claims, given that Sunak does not have an independent adviser on ministerial standards. The last incumbent, Lord Christopher Geidt, resigned in June under Johnson and was not replaced.

It is also not clear whether Raab would be sacked even if an inquiry did find he bullied officials. In 2020, Geidt’s predecessor as ethics adviser, Sir Alex Allan, resigned after Johnson took no action against Priti Patel, then home secretary, despite bullying conduct.

The Guardian has reported that Simon McDonald, the former permanent secretary of the Foreign Office, warned Raab about the way he treated officials in his private office and reported his concerns to the propriety and ethics team at the Cabinet Office.

On Tuesday, Civil Service World cited a series of unnamed officials as saying staff felt Raab was “gaslighting” them after telling a recent all-staff meeting at the Ministry of Justice that he had a zero tolerance attitude towards bullying.

The report said Raab would often interrupt civil servants during briefings and criticise them. One source said: “We just didn’t trust that he wasn’t going to cut you off after half a sentence and say, ‘I don’t want to hear that, I don’t want to listen to you’, which I would never want any of my staff being subjected to.”

I note he's only done this after 2 formal complaints have been made!

[northwestman]

In his letter to Rishi Sunak Dominic Raab says he will respect “whatever outcome you decide” following the investigation into the claims he has bullied officials. In effect, he is telling Sunak that he accepts his job is on the line, and that this process could result in his having to resign.

The announcement of Raab’s request for an inquiry is a good example of how having PMQs in the diary can force decisions to get taken. Raab is taking PMQs at 12pm, and Angela Rayner, Labour’s deputy leader, was bound to ask about the bullying allegations against him. This announcement to a large extent closes down that line of attack.

But Raab does not say who should carry out the investigation. The obvious person would be the PM’s independent adviser on ministerial standards, but No 10 does not currently have one. The last one, Lord Geidt, resigned when Boris Johnson was PM, and neither Johnson nor Liz Truss replaced him. Sunak is committed to appointing a new standards adviser, but no one has been given the job yet.

The Guardian.

[northwestman]

www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/19/dominic-raab-conflicts-with-staff-delays-afghanistan-

Dominic Raab’s refusal to speak to some Foreign Office staff he considered “time-wasters” led to “blockages” during the Afghanistan evacuation, with staff at two departments he ran forced to take sick leave because of his alleged behaviour, sources have told the Guardian.

New claims emerged about the deputy prime minister’s conduct compounding the chaotic exit of British forces during the Taliban’s takeover of Kabul in August 2021, which officials warned had been “costly” and caused “long-lasting” damage.

In the lead-up to the final stages of the withdrawal, decisions were delayed and backed up as Raab allowed only a handful of senior staff to engage with him and members of his private office, insiders told the Guardian.

The then-foreign secretary described several senior officials in the Foreign Office as “time wasters”, one source said.

They told the Guardian quick decisions were needed but “we couldn’t get him to listen to this message, let alone act on it”, and added: “This blockage was very costly. Decisions that should have taken hours took days or simply did not happen.”

Raab was “determined to cut off routes for communication for those he found to be challenging voices” and directed that only a handful of senior staff that he considered “worthwhile” were able to escalate matters to reach him, according to the source.

[zenfootball2]

Nov 12, 2022 21:13:45 GMT 1 armchairfan said:

Bullying?
Frankly, I find these accusations of non-physical "Bullying" laughable, and simply cannot understand why ANYONE could possibly feel "bullied" by mere words: the old saying about "sticks and stones" is eminently true and appropriate, in my opinion - to believe otherwise suggests a weakness of character: anyone on here is more than welcome to try and bully ME - I shall not cry, retreat into a quiet corner, nor seek the assistance of friends; PHYSICAL bullying is of course a different matter entirely.

you make your views very clearly and you are entitled to them

equally i completely disagree. verbal abuse / bullying day after day can leave people feeling depressed  it destroys confidence  and leave many people  suicidal. unfortently when the economy is in such a mess and jobs are scare many boses feels it gives them free reign to treat people like dirt .

im a retired mental health and have unfotently have lots of  anecdotal    evidence to the long term effect of bullying and mental problems

here are some articles that highlight the link between bullying and suicide


Bullying and Suicide - Bullying Statisticshttp://www.bullyingstatistics.org › 

"Suicide is the third leading cause of death among young people, resulting in about 4,400 deaths per year, according to the CDC. For every suicide among young people, there are at least 100 suicide attempts. Over 14 percent of high school students have considered suicide, and almost 7 percent have attempted it.

Bully victims are between 2 to 9 times more likely to consider suicide than non-victims, according to studies by Yale University

A study in Britain found that at least half of suicides among young people are related to bullying

10 to 14 year old girls may be at even higher risk for suicide, according to the study above

According to statistics reported by ABC News, nearly 30 percent of students are either bullies or victims of bullying, and 160,000 kids stay home from school every day because of fear of bullying"

www.nveee.org/statistics/

A new review of studies from 13 countries found signs of an apparent connection between bullying, being bullied, and suicide. (Yale School of Medicine)

[zenfootball2]

Nov 13, 2022 15:28:33 GMT 1 ssshrew said:

Nov 13, 2022 14:14:16 GMT 1 staffordshrew said:

To some extent a little different?  Social media bullying:  Ditch social media.

Work or school?  Much harder to ditch - work = your livelehood, your mortgage, food on the table.,,

Agreed but I know that children do like their social media and some who use it to keep in touch with friends (particularly in rural areas) after school and then when bullying started it continued on that media.

Personally I loathe social media. This is the only place I am on.

I think the effect of verbal bullying is being greatly underestimated on here. Bullying at work can be lethal and undermining. I’ve never suffered from it but I know some who have and I would never belittle them or their feelings in any way.