Raab.

[armchairfan]

Nov 19, 2022 16:52:18 GMT 1 zenfootball2 said:

Nov 12, 2022 21:13:45 GMT 1 armchairfan said:

Bullying?
Frankly, I find these accusations of non-physical "Bullying" laughable, and simply cannot understand why ANYONE could possibly feel "bullied" by mere words: the old saying about "sticks and stones" is eminently true and appropriate, in my opinion - to believe otherwise suggests a weakness of character: anyone on here is more than welcome to try and bully ME - I shall not cry, retreat into a quiet corner, nor seek the assistance of friends; PHYSICAL bullying is of course a different matter entirely.

you make your views very clearly and you are entitled to them

equally i completely disagree. verbal abuse / bullying day after day can leave people feeling depressed  it destroys confidence  and leave many people  suicidal. unfortently when the economy is in such a mess and jobs are scare many boses feels it gives them free reign to treat people like dirt .

im a retired mental health and have unfotently have lots of  anecdotal    evidence to the long term effect of bullying and mental problems

here are some articles that highlight the link between bullying and suicide


Bullying and Suicide - Bullying Statisticshttp://www.bullyingstatistics.org › 

"Suicide is the third leading cause of death among young people, resulting in about 4,400 deaths per year, according to the CDC. For every suicide among young people, there are at least 100 suicide attempts. Over 14 percent of high school students have considered suicide, and almost 7 percent have attempted it.

Bully victims are between 2 to 9 times more likely to consider suicide than non-victims, according to studies by Yale University

A study in Britain found that at least half of suicides among young people are related to bullying

10 to 14 year old girls may be at even higher risk for suicide, according to the study above

According to statistics reported by ABC News, nearly 30 percent of students are either bullies or victims of bullying, and 160,000 kids stay home from school every day because of fear of bullying"

www.nveee.org/statistics/

A new review of studies from 13 countries found signs of an apparent connection between bullying, being bullied, and suicide. (Yale School of Medicine)

I do, of course, acknowledge your deeper professional experience in this field of human interaction, but whatever volume of statistical evidence you may quote, it remains my belief that what amounts, in my mind, to pandering to a weak character trait, provides a self-fulfilling prophecy; for the purported recipient of this non-violent "bullying" it also provides an easy excuse for their weaknesses, and for the professionals operating in this field, it gives an easy and apparently unchallengeable degree of self-justification - everyone wins, except the alleged victim who is not taught how to address situations, either by modifying his/her reaction, or by reasoning with the perpetrator.
In human interactions there will always be a "power imbalance" between the participants, and I do not believe that the approach espoused in your response is the correct one if we hope to have a fully-rounded and emotionally intelligent human race.
As you say, these opinions are ones which I am perfectly entitled to hold, and the fact that they are most unlikely to receive a great deal of support bothers me not one bit!
To repeat, I do agree that physical bullying is an entirely different matter - I speak from personal experience, admittedly going back over 60 years.

[zenfootball2]

Nov 19, 2022 17:24:47 GMT 1 armchairfan said:

Nov 19, 2022 16:52:18 GMT 1 zenfootball2 said:

you make your views very clearly and you are entitled to them

equally i completely disagree. verbal abuse / bullying day after day can leave people feeling depressed  it destroys confidence  and leave many people  suicidal. unfortently when the economy is in such a mess and jobs are scare many boses feels it gives them free reign to treat people like dirt .

im a retired mental health and have unfotently have lots of  anecdotal    evidence to the long term effect of bullying and mental problems

here are some articles that highlight the link between bullying and suicide


Bullying and Suicide - Bullying Statisticshttp://www.bullyingstatistics.org › 

"Suicide is the third leading cause of death among young people, resulting in about 4,400 deaths per year, according to the CDC. For every suicide among young people, there are at least 100 suicide attempts. Over 14 percent of high school students have considered suicide, and almost 7 percent have attempted it.

Bully victims are between 2 to 9 times more likely to consider suicide than non-victims, according to studies by Yale University

A study in Britain found that at least half of suicides among young people are related to bullying

10 to 14 year old girls may be at even higher risk for suicide, according to the study above

According to statistics reported by ABC News, nearly 30 percent of students are either bullies or victims of bullying, and 160,000 kids stay home from school every day because of fear of bullying"

www.nveee.org/statistics/

A new review of studies from 13 countries found signs of an apparent connection between bullying, being bullied, and suicide. (Yale School of Medicine)

I do, of course, acknowledge your deeper professional experience in this field of human interaction, but whatever volume of statistical evidence you may quote, it remains my belief that what amounts, in my mind, to pandering to a weak character trait, provides a self-fulfilling prophecy; for the purported recipient of this non-violent "bullying" it also provides an easy excuse for their weaknesses, and for the professionals operating in this field, it gives an easy and apparently unchallengeable degree of self-justification - everyone wins, except the alleged victim who is not taught how to address situations, either by modifying his/her reaction, or by reasoning with the perpetrator.
In human interactions there will always be a "power imbalance" between the participants, and I do not believe that the approach espoused in your response is the correct one if we hope to have a fully-rounded and emotionally intelligent human race.
As you say, these opinions are ones which I am perfectly entitled to hold, and the fact that they are most unlikely to receive a great deal of support bothers me not one bit!
To repeat, I do agree that physical bullying is an entirely different matter - I speak from personal experience, admittedly going back over 60 years.

by  the time people come to me the damage has been done and it required a lot of work to help the individual including resliance stratergies and building up there emotional quotent.

an area that does not get enough attention in schools is building up the emotional quotient of pupils which should start at primary school( i fully apreciate over worked stressed teachers dont have the time to do this but the money spent at this age would help tremendously through there lives. the Finish education system has a fully intergrated model that develops personal responsibily , encourages the individual , and devlops there emotional quotient.

In Australia they have run through private funding a "three to five thrive program" were it identified that 20% of primary schools pupils  had a devlopmental problem, through a multie agency approach wich included psychologists , speech therpaists, theachers the 20% were identified were apropriate parents were given support in there parenting aproach. the results were the pupils caught up and thrived .
unfortently  what national stas showed that this 20% are much more lilklely to disengage from secondry school , devlop antisocial behaviour and have much higher  record of criminality and violent tendancies.


"Emotional intelligence (otherwise known as emotional quotient or EQ) is the ability to understand, use, and manage your own emotions in positive ways to relieve stress, communicate effectively, empathize with others, overcome challenges and defuse conflict."

[northwestman]

www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/21/top-whitehall-official-had-to-apologise-over-alleged-bad-behaviour-by-dominic-raab

Dominic Raab behaved so badly in a meeting with the Home Office during his first stint as justice secretary that his department’s top official had to personally apologise to counterparts afterwards, the Guardian has been told.

Whitehall sources said the deputy prime minister, who is facing two official complaints over alleged bullying, had acted “so badly and inappropriately” at a high-level meeting earlier this year that the permanent secretary at the Ministry of Justice (MoJ) was forced to call then home secretary Priti Patel’s senior officials to express regret.

One insider suggested the top MoJ official, Antonia Romeo, had taken the highly unusual step of apologising on her minister’s behalf to prevent the incident escalating into a formal complaint. However, it is unclear whether Raab was aware of her actions at the time.

Neither department denied that the apology call had taken place. An MoJ spokesperson said: “The Ministry of Justice works hand in glove with the Home Office and calls between officials to follow up cross-departmental meetings are standard procedure.”

Rishi Sunak has faced questions over his judgment in reappointing Raab as justice secretary after a series of allegations about his behaviour towards civil servants across three different departments, including the MoJ, the Foreign Office and the Brexit department.

[northwestman]

How ironic that an apology was sent to Patel's Department, who herself was found guilty of bullying by the then advisor for Ministerial Standards, Sir Alex Allan, who was forced to resign when Johnson put his report on her in the bin.

[northwestman]

The inquiry into bullying allegations about Dominic Raab, the justice secretary and deputy PM, could extend beyond the two formal complaints that have been submitted, No 10 has signalled.

As PA Media reports, the PM’s spokesperson indicated the inquiry could examine new allegations reported in the Guardian that Raab behaved so badly in a meeting with the Home Office during his first stint as justice secretary that his department’s top official had to personally apologise to counterparts.

An independent investigation has been promised, although Downing Street said the person who will lead that inquiry has not yet been appointed. As PA reports, asked for Rishi Sunak’s response to the latest allegations about Raab’s behaviour, the spokesperson said:

The prime minister has asked for an independent investigator to establish the facts and provide their findings. 'In the first instance, we will appoint an investigator and then there will be the process … It will be for the investigator to decide what they do or do not choose to look at'.

Geidt resigned on 15th June as the Independent Adviser on Ministers' Interests. Over 5 months later no replacement has been appointed..

[northwestman]

www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/23/rishi-sunak-appoints-lawyer-to-examine-dominic-raab-bullying-allegations

Rishi Sunak has appointed a top employment barrister to investigate formal complaints into his deputy prime minister, Dominic Raab, who has been accused by multiple civil servants of bullying behaviour across several government departments.

The lawyer, Adam Tolley KC, has been tasked with investigating the claims, which are understood to go back several years, and drawing up a report for the prime minister, who will then decide whether Raab should face sanction.

The Guardian has revealed multiple allegations of bullying and intimidatory behaviour by Raab across three government departments – the Ministry of Justice, the Brexit department and the Foreign Office.

Well, we all know what Boris did when presented with a file from his Ministerial Standards Advisor Sir Alex Allan containing clear evidence of bullying by Patel. He chucked it in the bin. Allan then felt obliged to resign.

I'm not being overly optimistic as to the outcome here either!

[northwestman]

www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/24/dominic-raab-faces-fresh-bullying-claims-from-raft-of-civil-servants

Dominic Raab is facing multiple fresh complaints from senior civil servants in multiple government departments over allegations of bullying behaviour, according to reports

The deputy prime minister’s former private secretaries, responsible for handling the day-to-day affairs of government ministers, are preparing to submit formal complaints, according to BBC Newsnight.

The fresh complaints come a day after Rishi Sunak appointed a lawyer to investigate formal complaints into his deputy prime minister, whom multiple civil servants have accused of bullying behaviour across several government departments.

“There are a series of allegations that appear to be coming across a number of departments where Dominic Raab has worked, each one is going to have to be approved by the prime minister for investigation,” Dave Penman, the general secretary FDA union, said.

When asked by Newsnight if the coordinated effort by civil servants might look like a “witch-hunt”, Penman said it demonstrated a level of concern about the deputy prime minister’s behaviour.

“This is an extraordinary set of circumstances,” said Penman. “We’ve never come across a situation where so many civil servants appear to be raising complaints about a minister’s conduct.”

The Guardian previously revealed multiple allegations of bullying across three government departments including the MoJ, the Brexit department and the Foreign Office.

The programme also reported the alleged use of personal email accounts for government business in two government departments, including as recently as his time as justice secretary last year. Multiple officials raised “deep concerns” with Raab about using his personal email account, according to the programme.

The alleged breach of ministerial rules comes after the current home secretary, Suella Braverman, was forced to resign from the post under the then prime minister Liz Truss, in part, after sending an official document from her personal email to a fellow MP.

After the home secretary was reappointed to the position by Sunak, Braverman admitted to using her personal email for official business six times, apologising for her “errors of judgment”.

[northwestman]

Downing Street has confirmed that the inquiry into bullying allegations about Dominic Raab, the justice secretary and deputy prime minister, is being expanded to cover claims relating to his period as Brexit secretary.

[northwestman]

www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/dec/05/afghans-died-because-of-dominic-raab-delay-in-reviewing-documents-officials-told

A meeting of Ministry of Justice officials at which Dominic Raab’s conduct was discussed was told “people had died” in the Afghanistan evacuation because of his refusal to review documents in formats which he did not like, the Guardian has been told.

Raab has previously faced criticism over his role in the chaotic Afghanistan evacuation after the fall of Kabul in August last year, when he was on holiday in Crete.

[northwestman]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11514581/Raabs-Bill-Rights-shelved-time-ministers-focus-Channel-migrants-crisis.html

Raab's Bill of Rights is shelved for the THIRD time.

[northwestman]

www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/dec/14/dominic-raab-blocked-victims-commissioners-reappointment

Dominic Raab blocked the reappointment of the victims’ commissioner for England and Wales earlier this year and is not expected to find a replacement for months, the Guardian can disclose.

Victims’ groups said the lack of a commissioner meant critical legislation was passing through parliament without an independent tsar, in effect silencing victims and limiting scrutiny.

Sources said Raab, the justice secretary and lord chancellor, intervened to prevent Vera Baird from staying in the watchdog role, which she had been told to reapply for in February in advance of the end of her tenure in June.

She stepped down from the job in September after being told in July that she had not been successful in the recruitment round, despite officials having found her to be “appointable” to the post, according to her resignation letter.

The appointment of a successor has since stalled and the post is expected to remain empty until the spring, sources say.

In her resignation letter, Baird said the criminal justice system was in chaos and accused the government of downgrading victims’ interests at the same time as reducing her access to ministers and failing to provide clarity regarding her reappointment.

[northwestman]

www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/dec/30/dominic-raab-deceptively-and-deliberately-undermined-me-as-victims-tsar-says-vera-baird

The role of a victims’ champion in England and Wales has been “deceptively and deliberately” undermined, leaving people affected by crime voiceless in the corridors of power, the outgoing victims’ commissioner has said.

In her first major interview since stepping down from the role in September, Dame Vera Baird accused the justice secretary, Dominic Raab, of seeking a “puppet on a string” while he undermined the rights of victims with his proposed bill of rights.

Baird said the victims’ bill going through parliament was vital legislation that could have helped improve outcomes for victims of crime. But she said Raab had “played fast and loose” with the bill and that it had been weakened by the government’s failure to maintain a representative of victims’ voices at the heart of government.

[northwestman]

www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jan/25/dominic-raab-much-broader-inquiry-civil-servants-complaints

Dominic Raab is facing a much broader bullying investigation than originally anticipated with at least 24 civil servants involved in formal complaints against him, the Guardian understands.

Government insiders believe the depth of the inquiry and severity of some of the claims means the deputy prime minister will struggle to survive in post, and it throws further doubt on Rishi Sunak’s judgment for having him in such a senior position.

[staffordshrew]

Raab, Zahari, Braverman, Jenrick, at this stage in the governments's life there simply isn't enough untainted talent left.

[northwestman]

www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/01/pmqs-keir-starmer-tories-rishi-sunak-nadhim-zahawi-dominic-raab

Downing Street has repeatedly refused to say whether Rishi Sunak knew of any informal complaints about Dominic Raab’s behaviour before making him a minister, after Keir Starmer attacked the government’s “addiction to sleaze and scandal”.

Speaking after a session of prime minister’s questions in which the Labour leader tackled Sunak over a series of ethical and conduct issues, the prime minister’s press secretary refused to be drawn on possible complaints about Raab before he was made justice secretary and deputy prime minister.

“The prime minister was not aware of any formal complaints at the time of appointing Dominic Raab,” she said. “Following formal complaints being made, the prime minister asked for the facts to be established.”

Pressed a series of times about whether Sunak had been told about informal or other allegations about bullying or abusive behaviour by Raab before forming his government in October, the press secretary would only repeat that the prime minister was “not aware of any formal complaints at the time of the appointment”.

Raab is being investigated by an outside employment barrister appointed by Sunak after complaints about his conduct, now involving as many as 24 civil servants. Among those to give evidence have been the top civil servants at all three of the departments Raab has led. The deputy prime minister denies any wrongdoing.

[northwestman]

The Foreign, Commonwealth & Development Office (FCDO) has finally admitted that former Secretary of State Dominic Raab did use WhatsApp to conduct important ‘official’ business and also, crucially, that they no longer hold a copy of any of these messages.

This means that WhatsApp messages sent and received by Dominic Raab during his two-year ministerial stint between 2019 and 2021 may never be available for public scrutiny – with potentially severe implications for government accountability and transparency.

For 17 months the FCDO refused to answer our questions regarding Raab’s WhatsApp use, claiming disclosure could impact the department’s ability to prevent or detect crime. However, following an intervention from the ICO, the UK’s information watchdog, they’ve changed their position and finally come clean.

Good Law Project.

[northwestman]

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/gina-miller-dominic-raab-bullied-b2274685.html

Dominic Raab is facing fresh allegations of bullying amid claims that he launched an “abusive attack” on a prominent anti-Brexit activist.

Remain campaigner Gina Miller said she was “bullied and demeaned” by the deputy prime minister after he called her “stupid” and “naive” during an “aggressive” encounter at the BBC in 2016.

Her claims, written in an article for The Independent, are the first on-the-record accusations of abuse against Mr Raab, who faces an official inquiry into allegations that he bullied civil servants.

[stuttgartershrew]

Despite the best efforts of the Guardian there doesn't actually look an awful lot to go on at the moment. This is from The Times that claims to have spoken to those impacted...

‘He enjoys the imbalance of power’: scared staff on life under Dominic Raab

He might well come across as difficult and abrasive but bullying? I gather there is more to come.

From that article it does mention that this often about those "in their twenties and at the start of their careers" and so we might have to consider the environment they may have been used to and what they are now expected to deal with. 

I guess we will know more in time.

[ssshrew]

He seems a dead cert to become the chairman of the party!!

[stuttgartershrew]

A little more about what staff encountered...

NEWSNIGHT SPEAKS TO FORMER RAAB CIVIL SERVANT, WHO CLAIMS BULLYING VIA “HARD STARING” AND “MICROAGGRESSIONS”

Again, difficult and abrasive but bullying? I'm always wary when anyone comes up with the "microaggressions" line and it does seem a little OTT to talk of post traumatic stress disorder. So not sure where I stand on this. Do feel he might not be the best person to work with but likewise you just get the impression that one or two in the civil service need to get a grip.

[Deleted]

Feb 9, 2023 14:37:36 GMT 1 stuttgartershrew said:

A little more about what staff encountered...

NEWSNIGHT SPEAKS TO FORMER RAAB CIVIL SERVANT, WHO CLAIMS BULLYING VIA “HARD STARING” AND “MICROAGGRESSIONS”

Again, difficult and abrasive but bullying? I'm always wary when anyone comes up with the "microaggressions" line and it does seem a little OTT to talk of post traumatic stress disorder. So not sure where I stand on this. Do feel he might not be the best person to work with but likewise you just get the impression that one or two in the civil service need to get a grip.

I am at that stage in life where I don't actually give a monkey's cuss what people think of me and don't care whether they give a toss about my opinion of them. Life is too short to have anything in your life that is affecting it negatively. Not everyone can say the same unfortunately and some people can't afford to risk their careers.

It can not be nice to feel intimidated by your boss every time you go into work and after a while it could very well build up into a traumatic experience, especially if someone is of a more timid personality, but for anyone really. I have been in jobs where I have felt that the manager has tried to intimidate people. I just walked away and got another job. That isn't quite so easy when you worked hard and long to move up the ladder in the Civil Service, moreso in London. Not many jobs have the same pay and benefits off a mid-level or senior manager in the CS, so you are forced to suck it up and hope the next minister isn't such a tw**.

It's all very well to mock people who claim to have some level of PTSD, but until you've lived with bullying and intimidation you don't really have the right to judge. Suggesting that people 'man up' isn't fixing anything.

[kenwood]

Quite agree .
Just a quick note though. Can we still say “ man up “ .
I think, and I’m sure you will agree , suggesting or even asking someone to “ man up” when they identify as gender fluid or even as biologically female , will bring down a whole host of s**te upon you owd lad .
It certainly wouldn’t fix anything , quite the opposite I would suggest 😂😂

[northwestman]

www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/19/senior-moj-officials-could-quit-if-dominic-raab-cleared-of-bullying

Senior Ministry of Justice officials could quit if Dominic Raab is cleared of bullying, the Guardian understands, with the fate of the deputy prime minister to be decided as soon as Thursday.

Preparations at the heart of government are ramping up for the publication of the long-expected report into claims of bullying by Raab.

A Whitehall source said the findings by Adam Tolley KC could be passed to the prime minister, Rishi Sunak, as soon as Thursday. Officials in the Cabinet Office’s propriety and ethics team are also said to be braced for the potentially bombshell dossier to land imminently.

The justice secretary has faced multiple formal complaints over his dealings with civil servants including claims, first revealed by the Guardian, that he bullied and belittled staff, driving some to tears or causing them to throw up before meetings. The inquiry has heard from more than two dozen complainants.

[kenwood]

I understand that the report on Raab was handed to Sunak today .
By late today Raab could be sacked .
Will Sunak take the right decision .

[stuttgartershrew]

"A difficult decision now awaits Sunak"...

Sunak has Raab’s fate in his hands

According to what's been reported the report will neither conclude whether Raab is guilty of bullying staff or whether there is any breach of the ministerial code. So it looks as though its a compilation of the accusations made with perhaps some counter, not sure. But anyhow, it will then be on Sunak to decide what to make of the findings. Its also reported that the report will be made public, which I think is a good thing. 

[ssshrew]

Apr 20, 2023 12:57:51 GMT 1 kenwood said:

I understand that the report on Raab was handed to Sunak today .
By late today Raab could be sacked .
Will Sunak take the right decision .

No.

[Dancin]

Resigned

[MartinB]

So Raab resigns but moans " it's not fair, I only bullied them a little bit" or words to that affect

[Dancin]

Apr 21, 2023 10:05:33 GMT 1 Dancin said:

Resigned

He claims the inquiry dismissed "all but two" of the claims levelled against him, and says those two adverse findings were "flawed."



His main argument appears to be that ministers need to be able to give direct critical feedback, and exercise direct oversight, over their civil servant officials.

[Dancin]

Full Resignation Letter here - #OUCH