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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2022 18:00:38 GMT 1
Well the opening post talks about pensions public sector pay inflation and state benefits so we’ve got a bit to work with beyond just the title of the thread! True, I suppose - it is what happens when several related but entirely separate issues are conflated in order to score political points....ho-hum Unrelated?? Highest rate of inflation in twenty years and a thread talking about pay rises, pensions and the economy all unrelated?? Ho hum indeed!
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Post by Pilch on Jun 22, 2022 18:34:08 GMT 1
it's why 8 out of 10 postman leave within 2 weeks , the job is too much for them , sounds like you'd last about 3 hours 😜 As far as I'm aware we have never actually met, yet you assume that I would not be capable of doing the job that you do. To be honest it doesn't really appeal to me in the midst of winter or on the odd really hot day we get, but I reckon most days I'd be able to manage. On the other hand I am pretty certain that you could not do my job without a great deal of training. Speaking of which our total pay rises this year are around 11% yet you seem happy to accept 2% on the basic pay for your job and cuts in certain other aspects of your job which add up to a £100 a month cut. Even worse is the fact that you think that those in the rail industry should be happy with the same. and your job is ? you make it sound like its beneath me whatever it is which kind of sucks, I'm qualified to do far more complex jobs but I currently like my job and get some satisfaction from it. If you like I'll have a word tomorrow and ask my bosses to contact you, they need oven ready postmen ;-) maybe after you've been there about 15 minutes you could become the union rep and take us all back to 1975 we have been offered 3.5% by the way, not 2%, the 2% is up front (5.5 total), and its been turned down flat already
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Post by martinshrew on Jun 22, 2022 18:36:31 GMT 1
The RMT are blaming everybody else, whereas everybody else is blaming the RMT.
It's quite clear to see Mike Lynch and his cronies at the RMT are the main issue here.
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Post by armchairfan on Jun 22, 2022 18:44:29 GMT 1
True, I suppose - it is what happens when several related but entirely separate issues are conflated in order to score political points....ho-hum Unrelated?? Highest rate of inflation in twenty years and a thread talking about pay rises, pensions and the economy all unrelated?? Ho hum indeed! To the best of my knowledge, pensions are not negotiated by any Trades Union, neither are we pensioners taking damaging industrial (in)action when our demands are not met, so yes, insofar as the common issue is the increase in the rate of inflation, the matters are related, but in no way settled in the same way.
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Post by Scarecrow on Jun 22, 2022 18:45:41 GMT 1
The RMT are blaming everybody else, whereas everybody else is blaming the RMT. It's quite clear to see Mike Lynch and his cronies at the RMT are the main issue here. How dare the RMT demand that they have a wage rise that’s closer to the rate of inflation at a time when National Rail are making record profits. What monsters they are for not wanting effectively a 9% paycut after years of pay freeze. Lynch has absolutely smashed every media interview out of the park while the tories scream he’s a Marxist baron. Truth is easier than lying. I know which side I’d rather be on.
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Post by armchairfan on Jun 22, 2022 18:54:08 GMT 1
The RMT are blaming everybody else, whereas everybody else is blaming the RMT. It's quite clear to see Mike Lynch and his cronies at the RMT are the main issue here. Oh so true, but it makes a real change from previous rail disputes, when ASLEF were far more militant than the NUR, back in the day: the respective leaders (Ray Buckton (ASLEF) and Sydney Weighell (NUR) could barely stand each other, Weighell letting it be known publicly that he thought ASLEF was in the hands of the extreme Left. Now, it seems that all of todays leaderships are hell-bent on destruction of the whole system.
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Post by neilsalop on Jun 22, 2022 19:07:28 GMT 1
As far as I'm aware we have never actually met, yet you assume that I would not be capable of doing the job that you do. To be honest it doesn't really appeal to me in the midst of winter or on the odd really hot day we get, but I reckon most days I'd be able to manage. On the other hand I am pretty certain that you could not do my job without a great deal of training. Speaking of which our total pay rises this year are around 11% yet you seem happy to accept 2% on the basic pay for your job and cuts in certain other aspects of your job which add up to a £100 a month cut. Even worse is the fact that you think that those in the rail industry should be happy with the same. and your job is ? you make it sound like its beneath me whatever it is which kind of sucks, I'm qualified to do far more complex jobs but I currently like my job and get some satisfaction from it. If you like I'll have a word tomorrow and ask my bosses to contact you, they need oven ready postmen ;-) maybe after you've been there about 15 minutes you could become the union rep and take us all back to 1975 we have been offered 3.5% by the way, not 2%, the 2% is up front, and its been turned down flat already Not beneath you at all, in fact there are some lousy forklift instructors out there and I'm sure you would be better than many of them. Of course you'd need to get an up to date forklift license and then go through the instructor training. I paid around £2,500 for mine including my unpaid time off to do it and that was nearly 5 years ago, so it's probably a bit dearer now. Would an oven ready postman be a bit like the oven ready Brexit? If so I think I'll pass.
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Post by martinshrew on Jun 22, 2022 19:07:58 GMT 1
The RMT are blaming everybody else, whereas everybody else is blaming the RMT. It's quite clear to see Mike Lynch and his cronies at the RMT are the main issue here. Oh so true, but it makes a real change from previous rail disputes, when ASLEF were far more militant than the NUR, back in the day: the respective leaders (Ray Buckton (ASLEF) and Sydney Weighell (NUR) could barely stand each other, Weighell letting it be known publicly that he thought ASLEF was in the hands of the extreme Left. Now, it seems that all of todays leaderships are hell-bent on destruction of the whole system. They're most certainly the far left.
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Post by martinshrew on Jun 22, 2022 19:09:06 GMT 1
The RMT are blaming everybody else, whereas everybody else is blaming the RMT. It's quite clear to see Mike Lynch and his cronies at the RMT are the main issue here. How dare the RMT demand that they have a wage rise that’s closer to the rate of inflation at a time when National Rail are making record profits. What monsters they are for not wanting effectively a 9% paycut after years of pay freeze. Lynch has absolutely smashed every media interview out of the park while the tories scream he’s a Marxist baron. Truth is easier than lying. I know which side I’d rather be on. Ahh, so you think we just chuck 11% at everyone? How very noble, but utterly unpractical of your left self.
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Post by armchairfan on Jun 22, 2022 19:17:56 GMT 1
How dare the RMT demand that they have a wage rise that’s closer to the rate of inflation at a time when National Rail are making record profits. What monsters they are for not wanting effectively a 9% paycut after years of pay freeze. Lynch has absolutely smashed every media interview out of the park while the tories scream he’s a Marxist baron. Truth is easier than lying. I know which side I’d rather be on. Ahh, so you think we just chuck 11% at everyone? How very noble, but utterly unpractical of your left self. I'm afraid that to expect logic instead of emotion from our friends on the Left is to ask too much.
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Post by wookeywombat on Jun 22, 2022 19:25:33 GMT 1
The RMT are blaming everybody else, whereas everybody else is blaming the RMT. It's quite clear to see Mike Lynch and his cronies at the RMT are the main issue here. History is proof enough that this Government, and in particular it's leader, lies. So who can I trust is telling the truth and it is one of the reasons why Partygate should not be trivialised by some. This Government cannot be trusted and it is time some of it's apologists woke up and smelled the coffee.
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Post by Pilch on Jun 22, 2022 19:37:28 GMT 1
and your job is ? you make it sound like its beneath me whatever it is which kind of sucks, I'm qualified to do far more complex jobs but I currently like my job and get some satisfaction from it. If you like I'll have a word tomorrow and ask my bosses to contact you, they need oven ready postmen ;-) maybe after you've been there about 15 minutes you could become the union rep and take us all back to 1975 we have been offered 3.5% by the way, not 2%, the 2% is up front, and its been turned down flat already Not beneath you at all, in fact there are some lousy forklift instructors out there and I'm sure you would be better than many of them. Of course you'd need to get an up to date forklift license and then go through the instructor training. I paid around £2,500 for mine including my unpaid time off to do it and that was nearly 5 years ago, so it's probably a bit dearer now. Would an oven ready postman be a bit like the oven ready Brexit? If so I think I'll pass. I tell a joke and you re-use to reply lol
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2022 19:43:01 GMT 1
so yes, insofar as the common issue is the increase in the rate of inflation, the matters are related, Thank you. No apology necessary 👍
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Post by frankwellshrews on Jun 22, 2022 19:54:08 GMT 1
The economy right now is a classic prisoner's dilemma. The RMT's literal job is to look after the best interests of its members and right now that means striking for more pay. Conservatives can hardly complain about individualist, looking out for number one behaviour; it's literally their entire philosophy.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jun 22, 2022 20:07:10 GMT 1
Classic left, put everyone on an inflated wage without realising they'd be millions unemployed because every small pub, cafe, restaurant and shop would almost immediately go out of business. We need to just stop throwing money at everything expecting it'll fix it. The railway, the NHS, the roads ... They need modernisation, innovative ideas AND money. I do wonder how much more coffee and beer people would be able to afford if they were paid a fair wage. The country is heading into recession because employees can’t afford jack s**t right now. If Sunak doesn't want a recession then why not make an immediate cut to VAT? As prices go up he's raking in more money in VAT, so there should be scope for it. If he's too mean to make it a general cut, then target areas that suffer most when people stop spending. He's already scrapped VAT for insulation, solar panels and heat pumps, now it's time to take it a little further.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2022 20:23:56 GMT 1
I do wonder how much more coffee and beer people would be able to afford if they were paid a fair wage. The country is heading into recession because employees can’t afford jack s**t right now. If Sunak doesn't want a recession then why not make an immediate cut to VAT? As prices go up he's raking in more money in VAT, so there should be scope for it. If he's too mean to make it a general cut, then target areas that suffer most when people stop spending. He's already scrapped VAT for insulation, solar panels and heat pumps, now it's time to take it a little further. Well to be honest with you I’m pretty certain he’s just filling the coffers so he can splurge on tax cuts in time for the election, hoping we will forget that we’re the ones who are paying for it.
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Post by randomtictacs on Jun 22, 2022 20:38:21 GMT 1
LOOK ! …….over THERE !! …….Unions an strikes and stuff.
Just for the benefit of those not following the story, can someone remind us when this 'militant' union last felt the need to resort to strike action ? Sometime before I was born ? So just how useless does this make the management of the companies involved and also the current transport minister to have negotiated their way into this situation ?...….oh.....its Grant Shapps…..enough said.
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Post by Pilch on Jun 22, 2022 21:40:18 GMT 1
LOOK ! …….over THERE !! …….Unions an strikes and stuff. Just for the benefit of those not following the story, can someone remind us when this 'militant' union last felt the need to resort to strike action ? Sometime before I was born ? So just how useless does this make the management of the companies involved and also the current transport minister to have negotiated their way into this situation ?...….oh.....its Grant Shapps…..enough said. that would be at the time the government handed the railway network to rail track who lasted 8 years before going bust leaving the government to step in , pick up the pieces and built it up again into a profitable business
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Post by staffordshrew on Jun 22, 2022 21:41:23 GMT 1
If Sunak doesn't want a recession then why not make an immediate cut to VAT? As prices go up he's raking in more money in VAT, so there should be scope for it. If he's too mean to make it a general cut, then target areas that suffer most when people stop spending. He's already scrapped VAT for insulation, solar panels and heat pumps, now it's time to take it a little further. Well to be honest with you I’m pretty certain he’s just filling the coffers so he can splurge on tax cuts in time for the election, hoping we will forget that we’re the ones who are paying for it. That's the problem, the taxation system is being run for the benefit of the Tories next election plans, not for the benefit of the country.
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Post by Feedo Gnasher on Jun 23, 2022 7:32:18 GMT 1
The more I’ve seen of Mick Lynch this week the more I respect him. Whether you agree or disagree with the strike itself and the demands of the RMT, he’s come across as a true leader of those he represents (I know expectations of leadership have been completely tarnished in recent years), has complete knowledge of the issues at hand and is prepared to show up both journalists and MPs.
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Post by martinshrew on Jun 23, 2022 8:23:09 GMT 1
The more I’ve seen of Mick Lynch this week the more I respect him. Whether you agree or disagree with the strike itself and the demands of the RMT, he’s come across as a true leader of those he represents (I know expectations of leadership have been completely tarnished in recent years), has complete knowledge of the issues at hand and is prepared to show up both journalists and MPs. I fail to see how you can get out of bed in the morning and come to that conclusion about him, but I respect your opinion. I suppose it's how you sympathise, the militant far left must be your thing and again that's fine, I respect that.
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Post by Feedo Gnasher on Jun 23, 2022 8:30:22 GMT 1
The more I’ve seen of Mick Lynch this week the more I respect him. Whether you agree or disagree with the strike itself and the demands of the RMT, he’s come across as a true leader of those he represents (I know expectations of leadership have been completely tarnished in recent years), has complete knowledge of the issues at hand and is prepared to show up both journalists and MPs. I fail to see how you can get out of bed in the morning and come to that conclusion about him, but I respect your opinion. I suppose it's how you sympathise, the militant far left must be your thing and again that's fine, I respect that. There’s enough video clips of him doing the rounds, the one I watched first thing this morning was him calmly dismantling Robert Jenrick’s arguments on Peston. I’m sure as hell not far left (or far right) despite these days everyone seems to be labelled and put in a box. But they elected this man to lead them, they balloted to strike for improved pay and conditions and I completely respect him standing up for the people he represents in the way they wanted him to represent. I’ve not said that I support the rail strikes or that I agree with their demands, in fact I think their demands are unrealistic. But there doesn’t always have to be a villain of the piece.
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Post by neilsalop on Jun 23, 2022 8:32:00 GMT 1
How dare the RMT demand that they have a wage rise that’s closer to the rate of inflation at a time when National Rail are making record profits. What monsters they are for not wanting effectively a 9% paycut after years of pay freeze. Lynch has absolutely smashed every media interview out of the park while the tories scream he’s a Marxist baron. Truth is easier than lying. I know which side I’d rather be on. Ahh, so you think we just chuck 11% at everyone? How very noble, but utterly unpractical of your left self. Who's asking for 11%? Most people are only after enough to keep themselves and their families afloat. Do you think that pensioners getting an inflation matching rise next year is acceptable when train cleaners, hospital porters, care workers, etc are getting less than a quarter of the inflation rate, if anything at all? For what it's worth I do think that the pension should keep up with inflation, but I can't for the life of me understand why people that are still in work should be made to fund that rise by accepting derisory pay rises themselves. Even moreso when CEOs and senior management are getting massive raises, bonuses and share options that dwarf the packages of those lower down the pecking order. Wanting some level of equity isn't a lefty thing, it's a human thing.
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Post by martinshrew on Jun 23, 2022 8:40:14 GMT 1
Ahh, so you think we just chuck 11% at everyone? How very noble, but utterly unpractical of your left self. Who's asking for 11%? Most people are only after enough to keep themselves and their families afloat. Do you think that pensioners getting an inflation matching rise next year is acceptable when train cleaners, hospital porters, care workers, etc are getting less than a quarter of the inflation rate, if anything at all? For what it's worth I do think that the pension should keep up with inflation, but I can't for the life of me understand why people that are still in work should be made to fund that rise by accepting derisory pay rises themselves. Even moreso when CEOs and senior management are getting massive raises, bonuses and share options that dwarf the packages of those lower down the pecking order. Wanting some level of equity isn't a lefty thing, it's a human thing. I think pensioners getting an inflation level pay rise is a disgrace, I really do. They're already getting an extra £300 next winter on top of that as well. Pensioners by default are some of the wealthiest groups of people in the country, I haven't met a single one yet who chooses between heating or eating, I don't know where they find them? Most have been mortgage free for the best part of 20 years before they even retired, again most are on final salary and other extremely preferential pensions. I believe RMT wanted an inflation pay rise, granted when they said that it might have been maybe 9-10%. They've already been told they can have a good pay rise, but they need to accept modernisation and unfortunately some job losses. Then again, I bet there's thousands of 60+ railway workers who'd gladly take voluntary redundancy so how many genuine job losses would there really end up being?
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Post by staffordshrew on Jun 23, 2022 8:43:38 GMT 1
The more I’ve seen of Mick Lynch this week the more I respect him. Whether you agree or disagree with the strike itself and the demands of the RMT, he’s come across as a true leader of those he represents (I know expectations of leadership have been completely tarnished in recent years), has complete knowledge of the issues at hand and is prepared to show up both journalists and MPs. In other words snivalling little politicians like Grant Shapps are in for a tough time?
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Post by neilsalop on Jun 23, 2022 8:48:04 GMT 1
Who's asking for 11%? Most people are only after enough to keep themselves and their families afloat. Do you think that pensioners getting an inflation matching rise next year is acceptable when train cleaners, hospital porters, care workers, etc are getting less than a quarter of the inflation rate, if anything at all? For what it's worth I do think that the pension should keep up with inflation, but I can't for the life of me understand why people that are still in work should be made to fund that rise by accepting derisory pay rises themselves. Even moreso when CEOs and senior management are getting massive raises, bonuses and share options that dwarf the packages of those lower down the pecking order. Wanting some level of equity isn't a lefty thing, it's a human thing. I think pensioners getting an inflation level pay rise is a disgrace, I really do. They're already getting an extra £300 next winter on top of that as well. Pensioners by default are some of the wealthiest groups of people in the country, I haven't met a single one yet who chooses between heating or eating, I don't know where they find them? Most have been mortgage free for the best part of 20 years before they even retired, again most are on final salary and other extremely preferential pensions. I believe RMT wanted an inflation pay rise, granted when they said that it might have been maybe 9-10%. They've already been told they can have a good pay rise, but they need to accept modernisation and unfortunately some job losses. Then again, I bet there's thousands of 60+ railway workers who's gladly take voluntary redundancy so how many genuine job losses would there really end up being? Which particular jobs on the railways would you like to cut? The ones that guarantee the safety of rail users perhaps? Maybe the cleaning staff? What about those that are working in the ticket offices who double up to help disabled passengers, stop people throwing themselves in front of trains, support passengers who elderly or confused and are generally there for any emergency?
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Post by staffordshrew on Jun 23, 2022 8:50:32 GMT 1
Regarding pension increases: Don't forget, they had the triple lock curtailed last year and have just received a piddling 3.1% when inflation had risen to 7%. Don't forget any lump sums he has had to backtrack and pay out since are one offs and don't provide a permanent pension rise, so the pension will always be that much lower than it should have been had he not curtailed the triple lock.
Sunak needs to be careful about antagonising penseioner voters further by breaking an election promise yet again. Back bench Tories suggesting such a thing are just trying to divide and rule us all.
Pensioners are on a fixed income - they should not be expected/may not be able to go out and get a job/can't just earm more on overtime and bonuses. So their plans, no matter how wealthy, are based on the pension keeping up.
There are also fears of a recession, pension increases don't increase costs of goods and genaerally either the pensioner or some lucky relative spends the extra, keeping the economy going.
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Post by martinshrew on Jun 23, 2022 8:59:43 GMT 1
I think pensioners getting an inflation level pay rise is a disgrace, I really do. They're already getting an extra £300 next winter on top of that as well. Pensioners by default are some of the wealthiest groups of people in the country, I haven't met a single one yet who chooses between heating or eating, I don't know where they find them? Most have been mortgage free for the best part of 20 years before they even retired, again most are on final salary and other extremely preferential pensions. I believe RMT wanted an inflation pay rise, granted when they said that it might have been maybe 9-10%. They've already been told they can have a good pay rise, but they need to accept modernisation and unfortunately some job losses. Then again, I bet there's thousands of 60+ railway workers who's gladly take voluntary redundancy so how many genuine job losses would there really end up being? Which particular jobs on the railways would you like to cut? The ones that guarantee the safety of rail users perhaps? Maybe the cleaning staff? What about those that are working in the ticket offices who double up to help disabled passengers, stop people throwing themselves in front of trains, support passengers who elderly or confused and are generally there for any emergency? The railway operation and technology has totally changed in the last 10 years, I'm sure the place is absolutely rife with inefficiency. I don't know the exact specifics of job titles, but I'd imagine the use of ticket offices is down heavily with people using self service machines, online apps etc. I'm sure there's other roles which now aren't required and or required much less than say 10 years ago. The RMT and other rail unions are stuck in the past of getting treble time on Sundays and all the other crazy perks, some of which Pilch mentioned that just aren't sustainable anymore. They need to move forward and modernise.
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Post by northwestman on Jun 23, 2022 9:00:38 GMT 1
Why is anybody surprised? You can’t lock down an economy and a society, pay millions of people to do nothing, spend and borrow and print tens of billions of pounds, and expect there to be no consequences, no day of reckoning, no bill to pay.
Britain’s inflationary tsunami, the rail strikes, the chaos at the airports, the incompetence, decay and decline, can all be directly traced to Covid and lockdowns.
Do you remember when Boris Johnson promised to put his “arms around every single worker” by financing 80 per cent of their wages? Or when Rishi Sunak subsidised our lunches during that absurd summer? We are now paying for it via a vicious stealth pay cut worth 5-10 per cent in real terms, and a multi-year 15-20 per cent decline in the value of cash.
What would have happened to support for lockdowns had voters been aware that payback would be so prompt, that Johnson’s handouts were a loan with an extortionate rate of interest, not a gift?
Daily Telegraph.
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Post by armchairfan on Jun 23, 2022 10:26:22 GMT 1
Who's asking for 11%? Most people are only after enough to keep themselves and their families afloat. Do you think that pensioners getting an inflation matching rise next year is acceptable when train cleaners, hospital porters, care workers, etc are getting less than a quarter of the inflation rate, if anything at all? For what it's worth I do think that the pension should keep up with inflation, but I can't for the life of me understand why people that are still in work should be made to fund that rise by accepting derisory pay rises themselves. Even moreso when CEOs and senior management are getting massive raises, bonuses and share options that dwarf the packages of those lower down the pecking order. Wanting some level of equity isn't a lefty thing, it's a human thing. I think pensioners getting an inflation level pay rise is a disgrace, I really do. They're already getting an extra £300 next winter on top of that as well. Pensioners by default are some of the wealthiest groups of people in the country, I haven't met a single one yet who chooses between heating or eating, I don't know where they find them? Most have been mortgage free for the best part of 20 years before they even retired, again most are on final salary and other extremely preferential pensions. I believe RMT wanted an inflation pay rise, granted when they said that it might have been maybe 9-10%. They've already been told they can have a good pay rise, but they need to accept modernisation and unfortunately some job losses. Then again, I bet there's thousands of 60+ railway workers who'd gladly take voluntary redundancy so how many genuine job losses would there really end up being? If anyone needed confirmation that envy forms the very bedrock of socialist "thought" this little contribution says it all....!
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