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Post by block12massive on Jan 26, 2023 10:33:02 GMT 1
returnofthehype posts some uncomfortable truths.
Genuinely don't understand how the people fetishising over this proxy war and advocating an endless supply of arms to Ukraine think they are on the right side of history.
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Post by returnofthehype on Jan 26, 2023 11:04:10 GMT 1
Few more uncomfortable facts…..
Unfortunately war will result in civilian deaths, yes there should be no war…unfortunately we do.
Reading all the fake sympathy for the Ukraine civilians who have sadly died and putting the blame firmly at russias door is hypocrisy and misguided at best,..
The main news the other day on BBC and CNN was that 8 Ukrainian civilians died due to Russian rocket attacks…8 is alot im sure you will agree……American killed a 100 times that of Ally forces in Iraq/Afghan……I will let you Google the civilians that died…..
How many people are killed in the African continent yearly through various wars??? Yet we don’t even donate a pea shooter and hide behind the excuse it’s a civil war or to political….
And by the way previously I have been looked at on this board for my right sided political and views I still hold…but certainly not a war of western creation.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jan 26, 2023 13:59:37 GMT 1
- What agreement Nato would not go in countries on their border? Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Norway and Lithuania already bordered Russia.
- How was the government "overthrown" in Ukraine? Demonstrators demanded a fresh election which brought in a new democratic government. Your version of what happened is almost completely the opposite. The Ukrainian president was a Russian stooge who tried to override parliament to align with Russia not the EU because of Russian threats and pressure. He was also known as the most corrupt politician in the world. The opposition leader was falsely imprisoned. Who is the American mouthpiece? Poroshenko over after the government fell. Zelensky won an election 5 years later.
- The coup that broke international law is what place in Crimea and Donetsk in 2014.
- Every non nuclear country is arming itself to the teeth because of Russian and Chinese military expansion and even more so no Russia has invaded bits of what it sees as historical "Greater Russia" over the last ten years. This is imperial expansion from the Russian Federation. Almost everything Ukraine is accused of doing is actually what Russia has done. It is gaslighting in the extreme.
So yes, your description of events is literally straight from a Kremlin briefing room. It is not a narrative of events accepted anywhere int he world accept from a small band of power brokers in Moscow. Even the Russian population don't believe it which is why hundreds of thousands fled the draft, at the same time tens of thousands of Ukrainians were returning to fight.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jan 26, 2023 14:01:06 GMT 1
returnofthehype posts some uncomfortable truths. Genuinely don't understand how the people fetishising over this proxy war and advocating an endless supply of arms to Ukraine think they are on the right side of history.
And Neville Chamberlain offered us "Peace in our time" and what happened was far, far worse, and only stopped by "an endless supply of arms to the UK and Russia".
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jan 26, 2023 14:03:07 GMT 1
Few more uncomfortable facts….. Unfortunately war will result in civilian deaths, yes there should be no war…unfortunately we do. Reading all the fake sympathy for the Ukraine civilians who have sadly died and putting the blame firmly at russias door is hypocrisy and misguided at best,.. The main news the other day on BBC and CNN was that 8 Ukrainian civilians died due to Russian rocket attacks…8 is alot im sure you will agree……American killed a 100 times that of Ally forces in Iraq/Afghan……I will let you Google the civilians that died….. How many people are killed in the African continent yearly through various wars??? Yet we don’t even donate a pea shooter and hide behind the excuse it’s a civil war or to political…. And by the way previously I have been looked at on this board for my right sided political and views I still hold…but certainly not a war of western creation.
It is pure whataboutery to compare Iraq and Ukraine.
Yes Iraq was a disaster and a mess and wrong on so many levels. But it is way closer to the first gulf war when Kuwait was invaded than the second.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jan 26, 2023 14:05:41 GMT 1
How many people are killed in the African continent yearly through various wars??? Yet we don’t even donate a pea shooter and hide behind the excuse it’s a civil war or to political….
Russia borders several Nato countries and Ukraine even more.
Political stability is important on mainland Europe to other countries in mainland Europe.
It mattered more to the UK that Germany invaded France than it did when they invaded Poland. History tells us that was our first mistake, to believe that. That is why Poland is in NATO now and Ukraine's sovereignty is being supported.
You don't silence a bear by hoping it eats your neighbour first.
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Post by davycrockett on Jan 26, 2023 15:02:38 GMT 1
Few more uncomfortable facts….. Unfortunately war will result in civilian deaths, yes there should be no war…unfortunately we do. Reading all the fake sympathy for the Ukraine civilians who have sadly died and putting the blame firmly at russias door is hypocrisy and misguided at best,.. The main news the other day on BBC and CNN was that 8 Ukrainian civilians died due to Russian rocket attacks…8 is alot im sure you will agree……American killed a 100 times that of Ally forces in Iraq/Afghan……I will let you Google the civilians that died….. How many people are killed in the African continent yearly through various wars??? Yet we don’t even donate a pea shooter and hide behind the excuse it’s a civil war or to political…. And by the way previously I have been looked at on this board for my right sided political and views I still hold…but certainly not a war of western creation. What would be your suggestion then? Just let Putin take over Ukraine?
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Post by armchairfan on Jan 26, 2023 15:40:42 GMT 1
Few more uncomfortable facts….. Unfortunately war will result in civilian deaths, yes there should be no war…unfortunately we do. Reading all the fake sympathy for the Ukraine civilians who have sadly died and putting the blame firmly at russias door is hypocrisy and misguided at best,.. The main news the other day on BBC and CNN was that 8 Ukrainian civilians died due to Russian rocket attacks…8 is alot im sure you will agree……American killed a 100 times that of Ally forces in Iraq/Afghan……I will let you Google the civilians that died….. How many people are killed in the African continent yearly through various wars??? Yet we don’t even donate a pea shooter and hide behind the excuse it’s a civil war or to political…. And by the way previously I have been looked at on this board for my right sided political and views I still hold…but certainly not a war of western creation. What would be your suggestion then? Just let Putin take over Ukraine? I may have an answer to that final question: it is simply that we allow the Russian Federation to invade and annexe (by Anschluss?) any sovereign country that it sees fit - we would probably end up with a single entity governing a vast proportion of the northern hemisphere, but one in which dissent of any sort was punishable by imprisonment or worse; thus would "peace" reign across the fields and steppes: peace is, after all a worthwhile aim, whatever the cost to human values... To those who, perhaps with reason, fear that the bully might "press the button", you are not alone, but to live under the constant fear of attack and invasion is itself the very antithesis of "life", in fact a living death. When people have a gun pointed at their head, they are likely to agree to anything - that the world is flat, that Russia is the innocent party in all of this - so I do understand why "return of the hype" has reacted in this way, but to see this and other platforms used, by virtue of our freedom, to then essentially refuse to defend those very freedoms makes for a nauseating spectacle.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 26, 2023 15:42:44 GMT 1
So blaming Russia for Russia targeting and killing Ukrainian citizens is misguided? And the Ukrainians are just as much to blame (or perhaps only in part, that's not clear) for Russia targeting and killing Ukrainians citizens? I gather because Ukraine refuses to simply lie down and allow a foreign invader to overrun their country? Is that it? I don't think anyone wishes a drawn out war, I think the vast majority of people would rather there was no war at all. However, Putin and Russia had other ideas. And with that said, I'm a complete loss, considering who the aggressor is, that people are venting their anger at those who are providing the means for Ukraine to defend itself (and those who support that position) rather than saving their anger for those who instigated the war in the first place. I find it bizarre to be honest.
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Post by zenfootball2 on Jan 26, 2023 16:03:03 GMT 1
So blaming Russia for Russia targeting and killing Ukrainian citizens is misguided? And the Ukrainians are just as much to blame (or perhaps only in part, that's not clear) for Russia targeting and killing Ukrainians citizens? I gather because Ukraine refuses to simply lie down and allow a foreign invader to overrun their country? Is that it? I don't think anyone wishes a drawn out war, I think the vast majority of people would rather there was no war at all. However, Putin and Russia had other ideas. And with that said, I'm a complete loss, considering who the aggressor is, that people are venting their anger at those who are providing the means for Ukraine to defend itself (and those who support that position) rather than saving their anger for those who instigated the war in the first place. I find it bizarre to be honest. The Church i go has been helping Ukraine refuges and the Vicar has friends who are still in Ukraine. When you hear first hand accounts of the horrors inflicted on Ukraine and the living conditions for the Ukraine people in there own country by Russia . i cant see how anyone cant see what a horrible war this is. it is important to equally recognise that this was caused by a power mad deluded despot who does not represent the majority of russians many of who have protested in the knowledge they could face lengthy prison sentances. whilst the focus has been on the war sady China contunes to carry out atrocities against faith groups and bully there neighbours
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Post by davycrockett on Jan 26, 2023 16:29:08 GMT 1
I don’t think anyone’s disputing it’s a horrible war. The theory is arming Ukraine will prolong the war because Putin won’t be defeated and Ukraine won’t give in. Loads more innocent people will be killed but ‘the West’ won’t get involved to end the war. We’ve got to call Putins bluff, issue ultimatums and perhaps send a massive armed ‘peace keeping’ army in whilst negotiating (firmly) a Russian withdrawal.
really don’t know what the answer is I was genuinely relying on returnofthehype for his solution.
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Post by edgmond on Jan 26, 2023 17:07:49 GMT 1
It is pure whataboutery to compare Iraq and Ukraine.
Yes Iraq was a disaster and a mess and wrong on so many levels. But it is way closer to the first gulf war when Kuwait was invaded than the second.
I agree about Iraq but there is almost no similarity between Kuwait and Ukraine either. Kuwait was hardly a sovereign democratic state. The first Gulf War was a Western/Saudi move to protect oil supplies with the added benefit (to those who backed it) of weakening Saddam Hussein who had outlived his usefulness as a buffer to Iran. It is highly likely that it was seen by the allies as a precursor to toppling his regime completely at a convenient date in the future. Western interference in the Middle East (and the lack of it when it might have been justified in Syria) is a matter of almost unadulterated shame. NATO support for Ukraine is, so far, completely justified.
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Post by neilsalop on Jan 26, 2023 21:44:30 GMT 1
One of the reasons given for the invasion was supposedly to protect ethnic Russians from far right extremist groups operating without any government control in the east of Ukraine. There is no doubt that that was happening to some degree, but on the other hand there were Russian backed militias operating in the same area of the country. If Putin had stopped the militias from trying to annex the eastern provinces of Ukraine or even stopped the support for them, the right wing/neo-Nazi groups wouldn't have any reason to continue. Instead he increased his backing of them, with money, supplies, weapons, etc. and inflamed the situation to a point where he could use it as a justification for the 'special military operation'.
He has spent the last 10 years or more planning this and has made sure that he has all the parties in place before making his next move. Unfortunately for him the Ukrainians didn't just roll over like they did when he annexed Crimea and he has received a very bloody nose. The issue with the west almost universally supporting Ukraine is that we are backing him into a corner. He can't afford to back down, as it would crush his credibility at home, but he can't continue to throw ever more conscripts into a fight they can't win, so eventually he will have to decide which is the least damaging way to admit defeat. One which allows him to retire to one of his many country homes and live in peace for the rest of his days or one in which someone eventually puts a bullet in the back of his head. The only other scenario doesn't even bear thinking about.
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Post by Pilch on Jan 26, 2023 22:37:23 GMT 1
I don’t think anyone’s disputing it’s a horrible war. The theory is arming Ukraine will prolong the war because Putin won’t be defeated and Ukraine won’t give in. Loads more innocent people will be killed but ‘the West’ won’t get involved to end the war. We’ve got to call Putins bluff, issue ultimatums and perhaps send a massive armed ‘peace keeping’ army in whilst negotiating (firmly) a Russian withdrawal. really don’t know what the answer is I was genuinely relying on returnofthehype for his solution. the longer Ukraine fight on, the more depleted Russia get reminds me of owd Harold in 1066 and how he sat feet up waiting down south for a little bit of a one sided battle, then all of a sudden the fixture list got congested and 2 games in a week caught up with him, few injuries and tiredness and alas a shock defeat no wonder the rest of the world are handing toys to Ukraine by the end of all this, nato with hopefully step in and pop an arrow in Putins eye ;-)
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Post by Worthingshrew on Jan 27, 2023 10:33:32 GMT 1
Of course providing arms to Ukraine will prolong the war, but the alternative ( to let Russia have its way wherever it likes) is too awful to contemplate.
If Russia has been planning the invasion for 10 years, then it’s made an even bigger balls up of it than we all realised. It’s destroying the view of Russia as a conventional weapons superpower, and made the world realise its weakness. Of course Putin’s ego and need to retain power won’t allow him to admit defeat, so it’s different to see how it’s going to end soon. There needs to be a way for Putin to end the war but save some face.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jan 27, 2023 11:27:40 GMT 1
One for a caption competition as Macron gets amorous?
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Post by returnofthehype on Jan 27, 2023 14:48:09 GMT 1
Of course providing arms to Ukraine will prolong the war, but the alternative ( to let Russia have its way wherever it likes) is too awful to contemplate. If Russia has been planning the invasion for 10 years, then it’s made an even bigger balls up of it than we all realised. It’s destroying the view of Russia as a conventional weapons superpower, and made the world realise its weakness. Of course Putin’s ego and need to retain power won’t allow him to admit defeat, so it’s different to see how it’s going to end soon. There needs to be a way for Putin to end the war but save some face. Jesus wept….Balls up of the invasion??? What was Iraq and Afghan then??? You had the full nato alliance vs nations that are a million years behind in and it a decade to leave the countries in a worse position….Russia has half of a European country in a year that has had been given more Aid in a year than any nation in the history of mankind….
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mcrshrew
Midland League Division Two
Posts: 240
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Post by mcrshrew on Jan 27, 2023 15:20:41 GMT 1
Of course providing arms to Ukraine will prolong the war, but the alternative ( to let Russia have its way wherever it likes) is too awful to contemplate. If Russia has been planning the invasion for 10 years, then it’s made an even bigger balls up of it than we all realised. It’s destroying the view of Russia as a conventional weapons superpower, and made the world realise its weakness. Of course Putin’s ego and need to retain power won’t allow him to admit defeat, so it’s different to see how it’s going to end soon. There needs to be a way for Putin to end the war but save some face. Jesus wept….Balls up of the invasion??? What was Iraq and Afghan then??? You had the full nato alliance vs nations that are a million years behind in and it a decade to leave the countries in a worse position….Russia has half of a European country in a year that has had been given more Aid in a year than any nation in the history of mankind…. Feels like stating the **** obvious but Russia is deemed to have ballsed up the invasion as it dwarfs Ukraine in terms of population, army and resources and had strategic help / points from Belarus / Crimea.
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Post by armchairfan on Jan 27, 2023 15:46:26 GMT 1
Of course providing arms to Ukraine will prolong the war, but the alternative ( to let Russia have its way wherever it likes) is too awful to contemplate. If Russia has been planning the invasion for 10 years, then it’s made an even bigger balls up of it than we all realised. It’s destroying the view of Russia as a conventional weapons superpower, and made the world realise its weakness. Of course Putin’s ego and need to retain power won’t allow him to admit defeat, so it’s different to see how it’s going to end soon. There needs to be a way for Putin to end the war but save some face. Jesus wept….Balls up of the invasion??? What was Iraq and Afghan then??? You had the full nato alliance vs nations that are a million years behind in and it a decade to leave the countries in a worse position….Russia has half of a European country in a year that has had been given more Aid in a year than any nation in the history of mankind…. I detect a note of congratulation to the Russian Federation for their "successful" invasion of Ukraine, although I am sure that isn't what you mean! As for your reaction to having a (nuclear) gun pointing at your head, that I can fully understand, as I said earlier; however, how many times has the Kremlin threatened the use of nuclear weapons since all this started....is it three, four or five times? I have lost count. Equally, how many times has modern Ukraine threatened to invade Russia? The fact is that Russia could easily, assuming that its nuclear weaponry is as good and reliable as the Kremlin claims, detonate a small low-yield device high in the atmosphere over Ukraine and deal with the reaction: the fact that there has been no such escalation, despite over 12 months of increasing Western military assistance, leads me to suspect either that the Russian military has no such capability, or that Russia is fearful of worldwide (not only from the West, but probably China too); in either case, that gun is not even as lethal as a water-pistol.
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rob62
Midland League Division Two
Posts: 141
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Post by rob62 on Jan 27, 2023 16:07:34 GMT 1
Putin is an evil dictator on a par with Hitler. If we don't stop him now no country in Eastern Europe will be safe. If you know your history apeacement never works. Weakness will only embolden Putin and other tyrants. Give Ukraine the weapons they need now to get this horric war finished this year
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Post by armchairfan on Jan 27, 2023 16:31:22 GMT 1
Putin is an evil dictator on a par with Hitler. If we don't stop him now no country in Eastern Europe will be safe. If you know your history apeacement never works. Weakness will only embolden Putin and other tyrants. Give Ukraine the weapons they need now to get this horric war finished this year I understand your sentiments, but it seems that not everyone on here takes that view! I must however caution against any suggestion of a gung-ho attack on the pre-2014 Russian land-mass - definitely NOT a good idea: somehow or other, Russia needs to be put in a carefully monitored and self-sustainable box, and slowly be allowed to trade with the rest of the world....once again, if you like, become one of the family of nations.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 27, 2023 17:30:39 GMT 1
Russia hasn't taken half a European country. Not yet anyhow. Its a pretty big place. But anyhow...
I'm not sure when it comes to Iraq and Afghanistan we're comparing apples with apples. I think when we talk about making a mess of the invasion here we are talking about Russia's military capabilities on the battlefield.
I think its safe to say that Russia's original intension was a rush on Kyiv, capture the capital and decapitate the Ukrainian leadership. That didn't happen. I'm not saying that Russia won't eventually overrun the Ukrainian forces, we wait and see, but this is not what Putin or Russia had in mind. They seem to have underestimated the Ukrainian forces, or they overestimated the ability of their own troops or a bit of both. As in addition to failing to capture Kyiv, they have since lost territory that they originally occupied and they have also been forced to mobilize more troops (than first expected). So I think "balls up the invasion" is a fair call. It looks a mess considering their original intension and the situation today.
I've no doubt that Putin more than expected Kyiv to be in Russian hands by now (by a good few months).
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Post by returnofthehype on Jan 27, 2023 18:12:26 GMT 1
An interesting Listen from the biggest podcast in the world
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Post by Worthingshrew on Jan 27, 2023 18:27:12 GMT 1
Of course providing arms to Ukraine will prolong the war, but the alternative ( to let Russia have its way wherever it likes) is too awful to contemplate. If Russia has been planning the invasion for 10 years, then it’s made an even bigger balls up of it than we all realised. It’s destroying the view of Russia as a conventional weapons superpower, and made the world realise its weakness. Of course Putin’s ego and need to retain power won’t allow him to admit defeat, so it’s different to see how it’s going to end soon. There needs to be a way for Putin to end the war but save some face. Jesus wept….Balls up of the invasion??? What was Iraq and Afghan then??? You had the full nato alliance vs nations that are a million years behind in and it a decade to leave the countries in a worse position….Russia has half of a European country in a year that has had been given more Aid in a year than any nation in the history of mankind…. Don’t know why you’re introducing Iraq and Afghanistan to the debate about Ukraine. I think most in Russia and elsewhere believed they’d walk over Ukraine in a few days, and this hasn’t happened even before military support from the west. You must be disappointed.
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Post by armchairfan on Feb 23, 2023 13:44:52 GMT 1
I see that the latest comments from Russia are that Putin believes that, between them, Russia and China can re-establish stability in the world; would anyone care to speculate upon exactly what form that "stability" might take?
It sounds terrifying to me....!
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Post by staffordshrew on Feb 23, 2023 20:30:12 GMT 1
I see that the latest comments from Russia are that Putin believes that, between them, Russia and China can re-establish stability in the world; would anyone care to speculate upon exactly what form that "stability" might take? It sounds terrifying to me....! Putin might be making as big a mistake as he did with Ukraine. China may want to re-establish stability in the word, but Russia? Russia is now a very junior party, it's strength sapping away every day that Putin's war goes on.
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