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Post by stuttgartershrew on Oct 18, 2022 9:17:39 GMT 1
You're right, absolute equality is impossible, there will always be weak and strong, rich and poor, good and bad, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive for more equality. Like I said it was only just over 100 years ago that the likes of you and me were even allowed to vote, prior to that it was was landowners and the aristocracy and eventually in the 18th century the middle classes were given the chance to choose their government.
Equality has improved over the years, women's rights, black rights, gay rights, they have all been fought for and their have been great strides in this country, but in other parts of the world, even the western world these hard fought for rights are being denied or in some cases rolled back on. Equal rights for some 'others' doesn't mean less rights for everyone else, rights aren't a cake that has to be divided.
I have never read Marx or studied Engels or even seen a copy of Mein Kampf, so to be honest I am looking at this through the eyes of someone who is not very well read on politics, but that doesn't stop me from forming opinions based on humanity and decency.
...but what's the real reason? Perhaps because they focus on the things that people deem to be important? This is related to the USA, mind. And whilst I have no idea how the midterms over there will play out and this is only a small poll, it came to mind from reading your post... There is a link to the poll in the final tweet. I guess people tend to vote for those who are looking to address the issues that they deem to be the most important. And perhaps more to the point, if you are not seen to be focused on those issues then people will look elsewhere to those who are. I suppose you could argue that people only deem certain things to be the important because they have been spoon fed that line but I think anyone who keeps an eye on things over there would be hard pushed to do so looking to that list. Just thought you would find this interesting anyhow...👍
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Post by armchairfan on Oct 18, 2022 9:57:39 GMT 1
Frankly, I view the activities of Messrs Bezos, Gates and Musk from a great distance, and for all I know, they may well have the best interests of the rest of us at heart; the thing is that I DON'T know, and neither do most of us.
Like most of us too, I have never read any of the great tomes of political/social theorists but the influence of the print media is, I think, overblown - mainly by the print media itself: it is a given that they exist to sell newspapers, and the extent to which their political stance is lead by them, or is a reflection of the views of their readerships is very much open to debate - they probably feed upon each other.
As to the question of "Equality", I have to query the assertion that "rights" are not a divisible cake....they are: there are innumerable ways in which the enforcement of "rights" must, of necessity, infringe upon the "rights" of others to conduct themselves in an otherwise perfectly normal, legal, and socially acceptable manner; the clash between the "Rebellion" activists, for example, and those trying to go about their normal lives is a stark reminder that the rights of protesters do clash with the rights of others: that is a "cake" which requires to be apportioned, and, after such apportionment, one side or the other will have their rights restricted. The difference is that most are prepared to accept the settlement, but some are not - whither then the rules of a society.....? Anarchy? The notion that one's "rights" can exist in a vacuum, with no consequences upon the 'rights" of others is, I have to say, not only vacuous nonsense, but dangerous nonsense.
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Post by neilsalop on Oct 18, 2022 16:08:10 GMT 1
Frankly, I view the activities of Messrs Bezos, Gates and Musk from a great distance, and for all I know, they may well have the best interests of the rest of us at heart; the thing is that I DON'T know, and neither do most of us. Like most of us too, I have never read any of the great tomes of political/social theorists but the influence of the print media is, I think, overblown - mainly by the print media itself: it is a given that they exist to sell newspapers, and the extent to which their political stance is lead by them, or is a reflection of the views of their readerships is very much open to debate - they probably feed upon each other. As to the question of "Equality", I have to query the assertion that "rights" are not a divisible cake....they are: there are innumerable ways in which the enforcement of "rights" must, of necessity, infringe upon the "rights" of others to conduct themselves in an otherwise perfectly normal, legal, and socially acceptable manner; the clash between the "Rebellion" activists, for example, and those trying to go about their normal lives is a stark reminder that the rights of protesters do clash with the rights of others: that is a "cake" which requires to be apportioned, and, after such apportionment, one side or the other will have their rights restricted. The difference is that most are prepared to accept the settlement, but some are not - whither then the rules of a society.....? Anarchy? The notion that one's "rights" can exist in a vacuum, with no consequences upon the 'rights" of others is, I have to say, not only vacuous nonsense, but dangerous nonsense. I think we are in agreement that with rights come responsibilities. The current crop of protestors have a right to protest, but shouldn't be putting lives and livelihoods at risk. No-one in their right mind would want anarchy, just as no-one would the government controlling every aspect of our lives. The system currently in place isn't a million miles from being right, but it still seems to be weighted towards big business and the richest few. You or I get burgled and we get a crime number, a millionaire gets burgled they get forensics round.
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Post by Pilch on Oct 18, 2022 17:01:59 GMT 1
Frankly, I view the activities of Messrs Bezos, Gates and Musk from a great distance, and for all I know, they may well have the best interests of the rest of us at heart; the thing is that I DON'T know, and neither do most of us. Like most of us too, I have never read any of the great tomes of political/social theorists but the influence of the print media is, I think, overblown - mainly by the print media itself: it is a given that they exist to sell newspapers, and the extent to which their political stance is lead by them, or is a reflection of the views of their readerships is very much open to debate - they probably feed upon each other. As to the question of "Equality", I have to query the assertion that "rights" are not a divisible cake....they are: there are innumerable ways in which the enforcement of "rights" must, of necessity, infringe upon the "rights" of others to conduct themselves in an otherwise perfectly normal, legal, and socially acceptable manner; the clash between the "Rebellion" activists, for example, and those trying to go about their normal lives is a stark reminder that the rights of protesters do clash with the rights of others: that is a "cake" which requires to be apportioned, and, after such apportionment, one side or the other will have their rights restricted. The difference is that most are prepared to accept the settlement, but some are not - whither then the rules of a society.....? Anarchy? The notion that one's "rights" can exist in a vacuum, with no consequences upon the 'rights" of others is, I have to say, not only vacuous nonsense, but dangerous nonsense. I think we are in agreement that with rights come responsibilities. The current crop of protestors have a right to protest, but shouldn't be putting lives and livelihoods at risk. No-one in their right mind would want anarchy, just as no-one would the government controlling every aspect of our lives. The system currently in place isn't a million miles from being right, but it still seems to be weighted towards big business and the richest few. You or I get burgled and we get a crime number, a millionaire gets burgled they get forensics round. shame the protestors are not millionaires, instead of shutting them up , you'd probably listen to them
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Post by armchairfan on Oct 18, 2022 17:57:08 GMT 1
Frankly, I view the activities of Messrs Bezos, Gates and Musk from a great distance, and for all I know, they may well have the best interests of the rest of us at heart; the thing is that I DON'T know, and neither do most of us. Like most of us too, I have never read any of the great tomes of political/social theorists but the influence of the print media is, I think, overblown - mainly by the print media itself: it is a given that they exist to sell newspapers, and the extent to which their political stance is lead by them, or is a reflection of the views of their readerships is very much open to debate - they probably feed upon each other. As to the question of "Equality", I have to query the assertion that "rights" are not a divisible cake....they are: there are innumerable ways in which the enforcement of "rights" must, of necessity, infringe upon the "rights" of others to conduct themselves in an otherwise perfectly normal, legal, and socially acceptable manner; the clash between the "Rebellion" activists, for example, and those trying to go about their normal lives is a stark reminder that the rights of protesters do clash with the rights of others: that is a "cake" which requires to be apportioned, and, after such apportionment, one side or the other will have their rights restricted. The difference is that most are prepared to accept the settlement, but some are not - whither then the rules of a society.....? Anarchy? The notion that one's "rights" can exist in a vacuum, with no consequences upon the 'rights" of others is, I have to say, not only vacuous nonsense, but dangerous nonsense. I think we are in agreement that with rights come responsibilities. The current crop of protestors have a right to protest, but shouldn't be putting lives and livelihoods at risk. No-one in their right mind would want anarchy, just as no-one would the government controlling every aspect of our lives. The system currently in place isn't a million miles from being right, but it still seems to be weighted towards big business and the richest few. You or I get burgled and we get a crime number, a millionaire gets burgled they get forensics round. I'm not sure whether your final sentence is entirely fair or accurate, but that apart, I agree that there is a welcome measure of agreement between us; as ever, of course, such matters are always a judgement of balance, and we don't exactly see eye-to-eye on that issue....I think it's called "Politics" lol
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Post by neilsalop on Oct 19, 2022 5:14:20 GMT 1
I think we are in agreement that with rights come responsibilities. The current crop of protestors have a right to protest, but shouldn't be putting lives and livelihoods at risk. No-one in their right mind would want anarchy, just as no-one would the government controlling every aspect of our lives. The system currently in place isn't a million miles from being right, but it still seems to be weighted towards big business and the richest few. You or I get burgled and we get a crime number, a millionaire gets burgled they get forensics round. I'm not sure whether your final sentence is entirely fair or accurate, but that apart, I agree that there is a welcome measure of agreement between us; as ever, of course, such matters are always a judgement of balance, and we don't exactly see eye-to-eye on that issue....I think it's called "Politics" lol Scary ain't it? You and I being in agreement on politics, never thought that would happen. Something else we can probably agree about is that Putin is a bit of a twunt.
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Post by neilsalop on Oct 19, 2022 6:42:28 GMT 1
...but what's the real reason? Perhaps because they focus on the things that people deem to be important? This is related to the USA, mind. And whilst I have no idea how the midterms over there will play out and this is only a small poll, it came to mind from reading your post... There is a link to the poll in the final tweet. I guess people tend to vote for those who are looking to address the issues that they deem to be the most important. And perhaps more to the point, if you are not seen to be focused on those issues then people will look elsewhere to those who are. I suppose you could argue that people only deem certain things to be the important because they have been spoon fed that line but I think anyone who keeps an eye on things over there would be hard pushed to do so looking to that list. Just thought you would find this interesting anyhow...👍 When did antifa become an institution? Antifa is short for anti-fascist. I'm antifa, but don't recall joining an organisation, paying any subscriptions or even getting a badge.
The way I see it there are three positions to take in regard to fascism. You're either for it (never a good look to be honest), ambivalent towards it (which while not being as bad, still ain't great) or you can be against (anti) it (universally seen as quite a good thing).
By the way, I think the last time antifa could have realistically been referred to as an organisation was World War 2 and that didn't go so well for the fascists.
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Post by martinshrew on Oct 19, 2022 7:45:44 GMT 1
Perhaps because they focus on the things that people deem to be important? This is related to the USA, mind. And whilst I have no idea how the midterms over there will play out and this is only a small poll, it came to mind from reading your post... There is a link to the poll in the final tweet. I guess people tend to vote for those who are looking to address the issues that they deem to be the most important. And perhaps more to the point, if you are not seen to be focused on those issues then people will look elsewhere to those who are. I suppose you could argue that people only deem certain things to be the important because they have been spoon fed that line but I think anyone who keeps an eye on things over there would be hard pushed to do so looking to that list. Just thought you would find this interesting anyhow...👍 When did antifa become an institution? Antifa is short for anti-fascist. I'm antifa, but don't recall joining an organisation, paying any subscriptions or even getting a badge.
The way I see it there are three positions to take in regard to fascism. You're either for it (never a good look to be honest), ambivalent towards it (which while not being as bad, still ain't great) or you can be against (anti) it (universally seen as quite a good thing).
By the way, I think the last time antifa could have realistically been referred to as an organisation was World War 2 and that didn't go so well for the fascists.
You slate anything right of centre, then proclaim you're part of a violent far left organisation? I'm not sure how that works.
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Post by neilsalop on Oct 19, 2022 7:55:47 GMT 1
When did antifa become an institution? Antifa is short for anti-fascist. I'm antifa, but don't recall joining an organisation, paying any subscriptions or even getting a badge.
The way I see it there are three positions to take in regard to fascism. You're either for it (never a good look to be honest), ambivalent towards it (which while not being as bad, still ain't great) or you can be against (anti) it (universally seen as quite a good thing).
By the way, I think the last time antifa could have realistically been referred to as an organisation was World War 2 and that didn't go so well for the fascists.
You slate anything right of centre, then proclaim you're part of a violent far left organisation? I'm not sure how that works. First off there is no organisation called antifa. Check, there is no head office, no PO number, no hierarchy, no membership, nothing, not even a club house in someones back garden. It is a very loose term to describe people that are anti-fascist.
I admit that I am left of centre in my views, but even on this thread you and I have found some common ground, so obviously I can't be so far to the left. I think if we sat down and had a chat over a couple pints we would find quite a lot of common ground and would both make some compromises. That is one of the biggest problems in the world at the moment, everyone is shouting about the things that divide them and no-one is listening and being prepared to compromise.
One thing I won't compromise on however is any form of extremism, be that left, right or religious.
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Post by armchairfan on Oct 19, 2022 9:17:27 GMT 1
I'm not sure whether your final sentence is entirely fair or accurate, but that apart, I agree that there is a welcome measure of agreement between us; as ever, of course, such matters are always a judgement of balance, and we don't exactly see eye-to-eye on that issue....I think it's called "Politics" lol Scary ain't it? You and I being in agreement on politics, never thought that would happen. Something else we can probably agree about is that Putin is a bit of a twunt. Actually, Neil, I don't find it in the least scary at all: as was wisely said recently (by a Labour MP?) there is more that unites us than divides us! That observation may not sit well with the likes of Nicola "I loathe Tories" Sturgeon, but I think it's accurate. As for Mr Putin, I consider myself duly educated - I have never come across the word "twunt" before, but your meaning is clear, and I wholeheartedly agree! I think that we had best bring an end to all this "agreement" nonsense before people start spreading rumours about us though.....lol
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kp
Midland League Division One
Posts: 495
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Post by kp on Oct 19, 2022 15:46:05 GMT 1
You're right, absolute equality is impossible, there will always be weak and strong, rich and poor, good and bad, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive for more equality. Like I said it was only just over 100 years ago that the likes of you and me were even allowed to vote, prior to that it was was landowners and the aristocracy and eventually in the 18th century the middle classes were given the chance to choose their government.
Equality has improved over the years, women's rights, black rights, gay rights, they have all been fought for and their have been great strides in this country, but in other parts of the world, even the western world these hard fought for rights are being denied or in some cases rolled back on. Equal rights for some 'others' doesn't mean less rights for everyone else, rights aren't a cake that has to be divided.
I have never read Marx or studied Engels or even seen a copy of Mein Kampf, so to be honest I am looking at this through the eyes of someone who is not very well read on politics, but that doesn't stop me from forming opinions based on humanity and decency.
The 1% in the world are the issue, problem is they've engineered a situation where they've pitted the other 99% against each other. You see someone on a lower wage arguing with someone on a perceived higher wage, neither are the issue, the multimillionaires of the world such as Musk, Besoz, Gates etc who then try and meddle with politics are the issue. You'll never see perfection, but it remains a perfectly valid question why more right leaning governments are rising in popularity. The lazy answer is to blame the media, blame figures like Trump, but what's the real reason? I get your point and i agree with it. However. It is not the 1% as it has been framed and oft repeated. 1% of the global population would be near to 80,000,000 people. 1% of the population of the UK would be 700,000 people. The problem is not the 1%, it is the 0.0001%, or less. A few thousand billionaires and their cronies.
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 20, 2022 13:32:58 GMT 1
Not putting the lid on the box of fireworks? Inadequate pilot training? Inadequate technology? Very dangerous!
Ben Wallace in the house of commons
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Post by zenfootball2 on Oct 20, 2022 15:15:58 GMT 1
Not putting the lid on the box of fireworks? Inadequate pilot training? Inadequate technology? Very dangerous!
Ben Wallace in the house of commons
claims of a faulty missile a very narrow escape this could have been the spark of a major esculation between Russia and Nato.
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 25, 2022 9:56:37 GMT 1
Treason arrests in Ukraine:
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kp
Midland League Division One
Posts: 495
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Post by kp on Oct 25, 2022 11:55:19 GMT 1
Treason arrests in Ukraine: War Is A Racket. Major General Smedley D Butler. www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.htmlWAR is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.
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Post by martinshrew on Oct 28, 2022 7:33:05 GMT 1
Some of the conspiracy peddled out about Ukraine is ****ing hilarious, bordering on ridiculous.
I hope their counteroffensive in the south is going well, the media blackout on what's happening in the south means something reasonably big is going off!
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Post by staffordshrew on Nov 4, 2022 21:32:20 GMT 1
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Post by Pilch on Nov 4, 2022 21:54:47 GMT 1
you really are missing your main forum politics aren't you
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Post by staffordshrew on Nov 4, 2022 23:15:26 GMT 1
you really are missing your main forum politics aren't you Not at all. But I do like to keep the Ukraine plate spinning. They must win, they must be funded, it could so easily be WW3.
For me, the new politics forum is just fine.
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Post by Pilch on Nov 4, 2022 23:29:57 GMT 1
you really are missing your main forum politics aren't you Not at all. But I do like to keep the Ukraine plate spinning. They must win, they must be funded, it could so easily be WW3.
For me, the new politics forum is just fine.
how that's thread getting on that you started this morning , the one i said that would never get a look in as it wasn't a tory bashing thread , you mentioned martin had replied several hours after you posted it , has it had much since ?
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Post by staffordshrew on Nov 4, 2022 23:41:16 GMT 1
you really are missing your main forum politics aren't you Not at all. But I do like to keep the Ukraine plate spinning. They must win, they must be funded, it could so easily be WW3.
For me, the new politics forum is just fine.
O/T obviously, but to reply, have you moved the posts you said you would. Oh, you haven't, Hmmmm!
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Post by Pilch on Nov 4, 2022 23:43:51 GMT 1
there wasn't a thread about iran or the world cup , i did try telling you that
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Post by staffordshrew on Nov 9, 2022 10:26:21 GMT 1
American actor Sean Penn has given his Oscar to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky during a visit to the capital Kyiv. A video posted on Mr Zelensky's Telegram channel also showed the president awarding Penn Ukraine's Order of Merit. Penn, who is known for his political activism as much as he is for his films, fled Ukraine in March while filming a documentary about the conflict. He later said he considered joining Ukrainian forces to fight against Russia.
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Post by staffordshrew on Nov 10, 2022 14:03:51 GMT 1
"Classic Rolls-Royce formerly owned by Freddie Mercury obliterates £20,000 auction estimate to sell for £286,250 All proceeds fom the sale are being donated to a charity that is providing aid to Ukraine".
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Post by staffordshrew on Nov 17, 2022 11:08:08 GMT 1
In my opinion, (unlike Elon Musk whose empire will tumble when he's rumbled), this guy knows what he's talking about:
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Post by zenfootball2 on Nov 17, 2022 16:40:38 GMT 1
The 1% in the world are the issue, problem is they've engineered a situation where they've pitted the other 99% against each other. You see someone on a lower wage arguing with someone on a perceived higher wage, neither are the issue, the multimillionaires of the world such as Musk, Besoz, Gates etc who then try and meddle with politics are the issue. You'll never see perfection, but it remains a perfectly valid question why more right leaning governments are rising in popularity. The lazy answer is to blame the media, blame figures like Trump, but what's the real reason? I get your point and i agree with it. However. It is not the 1% as it has been framed and oft repeated. 1% of the global population would be near to 80,000,000 people. 1% of the population of the UK would be 700,000 people. The problem is not the 1%, it is the 0.0001%, or less. A few thousand billionaires and their cronies.
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Post by zenfootball2 on Nov 17, 2022 16:48:04 GMT 1
no mater how Putin try to spin it ,the russian generals have looked incompetent, the formerly much feard russian army has been humiliated by the ukrain army, the russian arms sale has had a massive slump as former big customers like India are looking to new suppliers to update there military. blowing up part of the bridge linking the occupied Crimean Peninsul and retaking Kherson is a big humiliation for Putin.
the russians are desperate for winter to regroup the big isssue for ukraine is will europe and the usa keep supplying them with the weapons that have helped turn this war around. the only winer will be china who get cheap oil, gas and wheat.
our church is in contact with ukraine familys and we get to hear how dire it is
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Post by martinshrew on Nov 17, 2022 18:56:29 GMT 1
no mater how Putin try to spin it ,the russian generals have looked incompetent, the formerly much feard russian army has been humiliated by the ukrain army, the russian arms sale has had a massive slump as former big customers like India are looking to new suppliers to update there military. blowing up part of the bridge linking the occupied Crimean Peninsul and retaking Kherson is a big humiliation for Putin. the russians are desperate for winter to regroup the big isssue for ukraine is will europe and the usa keep supplying them with the weapons that have helped turn this war around. the only winer will be china who get cheap oil, gas and wheat. our church is in contact with ukraine familys and we get to hear how dire it is Nothing to be feared on the battleground, it's more in the brain of the lunatic. The army and generals are a farce, they're being picked off with relative ease. Ukraine are a proper air defence system away from a victory.
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Post by staffordshrew on Nov 17, 2022 22:30:38 GMT 1
If only Putin had had a plan for retirement. Hosting the World Cup, looking big on the world stage - that woud have been the time to become an elder statesman - respected and revered within his world. Basking in the glory. Now, you wonder why they bothered, every bit of prestige is drained. The way out then was to be a Russian George Bush snr, now there is no good way out.
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Post by staffordshrew on Dec 2, 2022 11:46:36 GMT 1
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