|
Post by staffordshrew on Jan 20, 2023 19:54:15 GMT 1
Germany, no leopard tanks to Ukraine? No more lpg loaded ships to Germany?
|
|
|
Post by armchairfan on Jan 20, 2023 21:04:02 GMT 1
Germany, no leopard tanks to Ukraine? No more lpg loaded ships to German invy? Somewhere deep in the German psyche there is, justifiably, a sense of guilt over its involvement in the two world wars of the 20th century, which it is, even now, reluctant to confront: the thought that a modern Germany may again become deeply embroiled in European tragedy is going to inhbit them; that said, I have no sympathy with Olaf Schulz's excuses and prevarication WHATSOEVER.
|
|
|
Post by neilsalop on Jan 21, 2023 20:30:02 GMT 1
Germany, no leopard tanks to Ukraine? No more lpg loaded ships to German invy? Somewhere deep in the German psyche there is, justifiably, a sense of guilt over its involvement in the two world wars of the 20th century, which it is, even now, reluctant to confront: the thought that a modern Germany may again become deeply embroiled in European tragedy is going to inhbit them; that said, I have no sympathy with Olaf Schulz's excuses and prevarication WHATSOEVER. I would disagree with your statement about how Germany is reluctant to confront their actions in the 2 World Wars, in fact students in German schools must learn about the actions of the Nazis as part of the school curriculum. Many if not most German students visit concentration camps, Holocaust memorials, battlefields, war cemeteries or museums as part of their educational experience.
I think that it is due to the German education system ensuring that everyone is actually well educated about the horrors of war that their politicians who have come through that education system are reluctant to take the country into any more wars.
Since WWII German armed forces have not been involved in any wars, apart from a small contingent in Afghanistan that worked mainly on clean up operations and also as part of peacekeeping teams in the former Yugoslavia, Cambodia, Somalia, Djibouti, Georgia and Sudan.
Perhaps not wanting to get involved in any and all military actions at the behest of the USA could actually be a good thing. Maybe we should try it.
|
|
|
Post by staffordshrew on Jan 22, 2023 12:00:16 GMT 1
Apparently Ukranian soldiers are already training on leopard tanks somewhere.
Apparently Jordan has 400 Challenger 1s it's just pensioning off, but really, what Ukraine needs is those leopard tanks.
|
|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 22, 2023 12:22:20 GMT 1
Germany, no leopard tanks to Ukraine? No more lpg loaded ships to German invy? Somewhere deep in the German psyche there is, justifiably, a sense of guilt over its involvement in the two world wars of the 20th century, which it is, even now, reluctant to confront: the thought that a modern Germany may again become deeply embroiled in European tragedy is going to inhbit them; that said, I have no sympathy with Olaf Schulz's excuses and prevarication WHATSOEVER. There is a decent article in today's Telegraph that touches on this. Its fairly lengthy too so won't cut and paste but if you get the chance its worth a look...đź‘Ť Also mentions that Germany are reluctant to tread someplace unless its alongside the USA, so they are waiting on whether the US provides tanks to Ukraine too. However, from what it reported Ukraine haven't asked the US for tanks because the M1 uses different fuel whilst Leopards are plentiful in Europe which means that spare parts are quickly and easily accessible. As for Sholtz...
|
|
|
Post by armchairfan on Jan 22, 2023 12:29:44 GMT 1
Somewhere deep in the German psyche there is, justifiably, a sense of guilt over its involvement in the two world wars of the 20th century, which it is, even now, reluctant to confront: the thought that a modern Germany may again become deeply embroiled in European tragedy is going to inhbit them; that said, I have no sympathy with Olaf Schulz's excuses and prevarication WHATSOEVER. I would disagree with your statement about how Germany is reluctant to confront their actions in the 2 World Wars, in fact students in German schools must learn about the actions of the Nazis as part of the school curriculum. Many if not most German students visit concentration camps, Holocaust memorials, battlefields, war cemeteries or museums as part of their educational experience.
I think that it is due to the German education system ensuring that everyone is actually well educated about the horrors of war that their politicians who have come through that education system are reluctant to take the country into any more wars.
Since WWII German armed forces have not been involved in any wars, apart from a small contingent in Afghanistan that worked mainly on clean up operations and also as part of peacekeeping teams in the former Yugoslavia, Cambodia, Somalia, Djibouti, Georgia and Sudan.
Perhaps not wanting to get involved in any and all military actions at the behest of the USA could actually be a good thing. Maybe we should try it.
You may, or may not, be right in your assertions about the effects of the German education system - I am not qualified to judge. I do, however, disagree most vehemently that this conflict should be viewed in any way as one that should be entered into "at the behest of the USA": leaving aside the fact that the pleas for military equipment emanate from Ukraine, you appear not to have grasped the fact that one large country (Russia) has chosen to invade a smaller country, on what can only be described as the most threadbare and historically inaccurate precepts. So much for the concept of international solidarity with the underdog, or does that only apply when the US is doing the bullying (which I admit it does, though mainly with economic muscle, not military)
|
|
|
Post by staffordshrew on Jan 22, 2023 12:56:49 GMT 1
Germany's dithering is the best news Putin has heard for months.
|
|
|
Post by neilsalop on Jan 23, 2023 7:26:27 GMT 1
I would disagree with your statement about how Germany is reluctant to confront their actions in the 2 World Wars, in fact students in German schools must learn about the actions of the Nazis as part of the school curriculum. Many if not most German students visit concentration camps, Holocaust memorials, battlefields, war cemeteries or museums as part of their educational experience.
I think that it is due to the German education system ensuring that everyone is actually well educated about the horrors of war that their politicians who have come through that education system are reluctant to take the country into any more wars.
Since WWII German armed forces have not been involved in any wars, apart from a small contingent in Afghanistan that worked mainly on clean up operations and also as part of peacekeeping teams in the former Yugoslavia, Cambodia, Somalia, Djibouti, Georgia and Sudan.
Perhaps not wanting to get involved in any and all military actions at the behest of the USA could actually be a good thing. Maybe we should try it.
You may, or may not, be right in your assertions about the effects of the German education system - I am not qualified to judge. I do, however, disagree most vehemently that this conflict should be viewed in any way as one that should be entered into "at the behest of the USA": leaving aside the fact that the pleas for military equipment emanate from Ukraine, you appear not to have grasped the fact that one large country (Russia) has chosen to invade a smaller country, on what can only be described as the most threadbare and historically inaccurate precepts. So much for the concept of international solidarity with the underdog, or does that only apply when the US is doing the bullying (which I admit it does, though mainly with economic muscle, not military) Throughout the post war years the British and US film industries had a seemingly endless vault of heroic stories, true or otherwise from WWII and the British public lapped them up. Some of the music from that era are still mumbled at the footy even these days. While we've being droning on about two World Wars and One World Cup for 57 years the Germans have educated their populace about the horrors of wars and dictatorships in the hope that they never have to see that again in their country.
Personally I believe that Germany should allow the use of Leopard tanks in Ukraine, but I understand their reticence.
As for the US only using economic muscle, you're having a laugh. They went into Iraq, enacted regime change and destroyed the country over non-existent WMDs. The orchestrated regime change in Libya and also destroyed that country. They attempted the same in Syria and are using the same tactics in Somalia. Libya had pretty much fallen off the US radar until Gadaffi started talking about using the Gold Dinar for oil trade instead of the petro-dollar, something that would have given North Africa and the continent as a whole a much stronger hand. Can't be having any of that. The USA's economic muscle is so tied up in oil that any threat to dominance of the petro-dollar would require an immediate military response and that's exactly what happened in Libya.
|
|
|
Post by armchairfan on Jan 23, 2023 10:50:12 GMT 1
You may, or may not, be right in your assertions about the effects of the German education system - I am not qualified to judge. I do, however, disagree most vehemently that this conflict should be viewed in any way as one that should be entered into "at the behest of the USA": leaving aside the fact that the pleas for military equipment emanate from Ukraine, you appear not to have grasped the fact that one large country (Russia) has chosen to invade a smaller country, on what can only be described as the most threadbare and historically inaccurate precepts. So much for the concept of international solidarity with the underdog, or does that only apply when the US is doing the bullying (which I admit it does, though mainly with economic muscle, not military) Throughout the post war years the British and US film industries had a seemingly endless vault of heroic stories, true or otherwise from WWII and the British public lapped them up. Some of the music from that era are still mumbled at the footy even these days. While we've being droning on about two World Wars and One World Cup for 57 years the Germans have educated their populace about the horrors of wars and dictatorships in the hope that they never have to see that again in their country.
Personally I believe that Germany should allow the use of Leopard tanks in Ukraine, but I understand their reticence.
As for the US only using economic muscle, you're having a laugh. They went into Iraq, enacted regime change and destroyed the country over non-existent WMDs. The orchestrated regime change in Libya and also destroyed that country. They attempted the same in Syria and are using the same tactics in Somalia. Libya had pretty much fallen off the US radar until Gadaffi started talking about using the Gold Dinar for oil trade instead of the petro-dollar, something that would have given North Africa and the continent as a whole a much stronger hand. Can't be having any of that. The USA's economic muscle is so tied up in oil that any threat to dominance of the petro-dollar would require an immediate military response and that's exactly what happened in Libya.
Quite what the output of Hollywood or the British film industry has to do with the matter escapes me, and in any event, you have singularly failed to grasp the what lay behind the production of "war films" as a genre: it was not to laud war itself, but to tell the stories of genuine sacrifice and heroism amidst the background of destruction; you seem to imply that such films inspired jingoism of the worst sort, but that says a great deal about the way you things: everything one sees thinks or does requiring some deep political or philosophical "message"; fortunately that's not how most of us operate in the real world. As to the activities of the US, you would be better served by actually READING my post, instead of turning it into that which you presumably HOPED I would say - to fortify your argument: nowhere did I say or even hint that the US "only" uses economic muscle. Anyway, I really do think that we are both trying to dance on the same pin-head, because, once all is said and done, the whole issue boils down to a single choice: would you prefer to live in a world of western-style liberal democracy, governed by the rule of law, or would you prefer to live under the regimes, of which Russia is one, which would so restrict your individual freedom as to make this sort of exchange rather dangerous? Which one, Neil - no ifs, buts maybes or"Scholzing" - would you defend your choice?
|
|
mcrshrew
Midland League Division Two
Posts: 240
|
Post by mcrshrew on Jan 23, 2023 11:32:43 GMT 1
While we've being droning on about two World Wars and One World Cup for 57 years the Germans have educated their populace about the horrors of wars and dictatorships in the hope that they never have to see that again in their country. [/div]
Despite what you're implying, in the UK both children and teenagers (including you, me and everyone on this board) study both World Wars, Hitler (extensively), the Holocaust and authoritarianism, so that individual point doesn't really stand up, does it?
|
|
|
Post by neilsalop on Jan 23, 2023 12:38:24 GMT 1
Throughout the post war years the British and US film industries had a seemingly endless vault of heroic stories, true or otherwise from WWII and the British public lapped them up. Some of the music from that era are still mumbled at the footy even these days. While we've being droning on about two World Wars and One World Cup for 57 years the Germans have educated their populace about the horrors of wars and dictatorships in the hope that they never have to see that again in their country.
Personally I believe that Germany should allow the use of Leopard tanks in Ukraine, but I understand their reticence.
As for the US only using economic muscle, you're having a laugh. They went into Iraq, enacted regime change and destroyed the country over non-existent WMDs. The orchestrated regime change in Libya and also destroyed that country. They attempted the same in Syria and are using the same tactics in Somalia. Libya had pretty much fallen off the US radar until Gadaffi started talking about using the Gold Dinar for oil trade instead of the petro-dollar, something that would have given North Africa and the continent as a whole a much stronger hand. Can't be having any of that. The USA's economic muscle is so tied up in oil that any threat to dominance of the petro-dollar would require an immediate military response and that's exactly what happened in Libya.
Quite what the output of Hollywood or the British film industry has to do with the matter escapes me, and in any event, you have singularly failed to grasp the what lay behind the production of "war films" as a genre: it was not to laud war itself, but to tell the stories of genuine sacrifice and heroism amidst the background of destruction; you seem to imply that such films inspired jingoism of the worst sort, but that says a great deal about the way you things: everything one sees thinks or does requiring some deep political or philosophical "message"; fortunately that's not how most of us operate in the real world. As to the activities of the US, you would be better served by actually READING my post, instead of turning it into that which you presumably HOPED I would say - to fortify your argument: nowhere did I say or even hint that the US "only" uses economic muscle. Anyway, I really do think that we are both trying to dance on the same pin-head, because, once all is said and done, the whole issue boils down to a single choice: would you prefer to live in a world of western-style liberal democracy, governed by the rule of law, or would you prefer to live under the regimes, of which Russia is one, which would so restrict your individual freedom as to make this sort of exchange rather dangerous? Which one, Neil - no ifs, buts maybes or"Scholzing" - would you defend your choice? Of course I would prefer my current life in the democratic west and yes I would defend my choice. That doesn't mean the system I choose to live under is anywhere near perfect. As I stated earlier I would prefer it if Germany did allow the use of Leopards in Ukraine, but with Germany also being a democratic country with full independence the choice is and should always be theirs.
|
|
|
Post by armchairfan on Jan 23, 2023 13:12:58 GMT 1
Quite what the output of Hollywood or the British film industry has to do with the matter escapes me, and in any event, you have singularly failed to grasp the what lay behind the production of "war films" as a genre: it was not to laud war itself, but to tell the stories of genuine sacrifice and heroism amidst the background of destruction; you seem to imply that such films inspired jingoism of the worst sort, but that says a great deal about the way you things: everything one sees thinks or does requiring some deep political or philosophical "message"; fortunately that's not how most of us operate in the real world. As to the activities of the US, you would be better served by actually READING my post, instead of turning it into that which you presumably HOPED I would say - to fortify your argument: nowhere did I say or even hint that the US "only" uses economic muscle. Anyway, I really do think that we are both trying to dance on the same pin-head, because, once all is said and done, the whole issue boils down to a single choice: would you prefer to live in a world of western-style liberal democracy, governed by the rule of law, or would you prefer to live under the regimes, of which Russia is one, which would so restrict your individual freedom as to make this sort of exchange rather dangerous? Which one, Neil - no ifs, buts maybes or"Scholzing" - would you defend your choice? Of course I would prefer my current life in the democratic west and yes I would defend my choice. That doesn't mean the system I choose to live under is anywhere near perfect. As I stated earlier I would prefer it if Germany did allow the use of Leopards in Ukraine, but with Germany also being a democratic country with full independence the choice is and should always be theirs. Noone - least of all me - pretends that our western liberal society is perfect; it is foolish to think it ever could be, but you and I have found a measure of agreement which indicates to me that , in broad terms, we are of like mind; Ukraine, like Germany is a fully independent country recognised as such by the UN, and is therefore entitled to forge whatever alliances, in whatever form, to protect and preserve that independence. Chancellor Scholz's lame excuses cut no ice with either of us, it seems: we are definitely sharing the same pin-head!
|
|
kp
Midland League Division One
Posts: 495
|
Post by kp on Jan 23, 2023 16:36:30 GMT 1
You may, or may not, be right in your assertions about the effects of the German education system - I am not qualified to judge. I do, however, disagree most vehemently that this conflict should be viewed in any way as one that should be entered into "at the behest of the USA": leaving aside the fact that the pleas for military equipment emanate from Ukraine, you appear not to have grasped the fact that one large country (Russia) has chosen to invade a smaller country, on what can only be described as the most threadbare and historically inaccurate precepts. So much for the concept of international solidarity with the underdog, or does that only apply when the US is doing the bullying (which I admit it does, though mainly with economic muscle, not military) Throughout the post war years the British and US film industries had a seemingly endless vault of heroic stories, true or otherwise from WWII and the British public lapped them up. Some of the music from that era are still mumbled at the footy even these days. While we've being droning on about two World Wars and One World Cup for 57 years the Germans have educated their populace about the horrors of wars and dictatorships in the hope that they never have to see that again in their country.
Personally I believe that Germany should allow the use of Leopard tanks in Ukraine, but I understand their reticence.
As for the US only using economic muscle, you're having a laugh. They went into Iraq, enacted regime change and destroyed the country over non-existent WMDs. The orchestrated regime change in Libya and also destroyed that country. They attempted the same in Syria and are using the same tactics in Somalia. Libya had pretty much fallen off the US radar until Gadaffi started talking about using the Gold Dinar for oil trade instead of the petro-dollar, something that would have given North Africa and the continent as a whole a much stronger hand. Can't be having any of that. The USA's economic muscle is so tied up in oil that any threat to dominance of the petro-dollar would require an immediate military response and that's exactly what happened in Libya.
If you know your history they also had a hand in Ukraine back in 2014. Victoria Nuland got rather caught with her pants down. She was openly discussing who the US should install as leader in Ukraine. It was decided that they didn't have enough dirt on Klitschko as they only had evidence of extra marital affairs to hold against him and this would not give them as much control as they liked. War Is A Racket.
|
|
|
Post by armchairfan on Jan 23, 2023 17:52:59 GMT 1
Throughout the post war years the British and US film industries had a seemingly endless vault of heroic stories, true or otherwise from WWII and the British public lapped them up. Some of the music from that era are still mumbled at the footy even these days. While we've being droning on about two World Wars and One World Cup for 57 years the Germans have educated their populace about the horrors of wars and dictatorships in the hope that they never have to see that again in their country.
Personally I believe that Germany should allow the use of Leopard tanks in Ukraine, but I understand their reticence.
As for the US only using economic muscle, you're having a laugh. They went into Iraq, enacted regime change and destroyed the country over non-existent WMDs. The orchestrated regime change in Libya and also destroyed that country. They attempted the same in Syria and are using the same tactics in Somalia. Libya had pretty much fallen off the US radar until Gadaffi started talking about using the Gold Dinar for oil trade instead of the petro-dollar, something that would have given North Africa and the continent as a whole a much stronger hand. Can't be having any of that. The USA's economic muscle is so tied up in oil that any threat to dominance of the petro-dollar would require an immediate military response and that's exactly what happened in Libya.
If you know your history they also had a hand in Ukraine back in 2014. Victoria Nuland got rather caught with her pants down. She was openly discussing who the US should install as leader in Ukraine. It was decided that they didn't have enough dirt on Klitschko as they only had evidence of extra marital affairs to hold against him and this would not give them as much control as they liked. War Is A Racket. That the US, along with the majority of "west"-leaning countries have a legitimate interest in keeping the world a relatively safe place, as in the case in most of the liberal democracies, and, by logical extension, free from the malignant influences - and military action - of countries who would wish us harm should come as no surprise; frankly, I would be more than a little disappointed if we and the US were to fail in that duty of standing up for the rights and privileges we have secured over the years. That there are certain beneficiaries from war I do not doubt, but true or not, does not negate the necessity of sometimes HAVING to go to war.....was it necessary to fight that upstart corporal 80-odd years ago?
|
|
kp
Midland League Division One
Posts: 495
|
Post by kp on Jan 24, 2023 15:59:16 GMT 1
If you know your history they also had a hand in Ukraine back in 2014. Victoria Nuland got rather caught with her pants down. She was openly discussing who the US should install as leader in Ukraine. It was decided that they didn't have enough dirt on Klitschko as they only had evidence of extra marital affairs to hold against him and this would not give them as much control as they liked. War Is A Racket. That the US, along with the majority of "west"-leaning countries have a legitimate interest in keeping the world a relatively safe place, as in the case in most of the liberal democracies, and, by logical extension, free from the malignant influences - and military action - of countries who would wish us harm should come as no surprise; frankly, I would be more than a little disappointed if we and the US were to fail in that duty of standing up for the rights and privileges we have secured over the years. That there are certain beneficiaries from war I do not doubt, but true or not, does not negate the necessity of sometimes HAVING to go to war.....was it necessary to fight that upstart corporal 80-odd years ago? What has any of that got to do with one nation effectively aiding and abetting (possibly instigating) a coup in another sovereign nation? Let alone a coup against a seemingly democratically elected leader. Keeping us safe? Are you absolutely sure we are not effectively an occupied territory? How long has the US had military bases in the UK and on mainland Europe? How many military bases does the US have worldwide? How many foreign nations have military bases on US soil? Taking the ones in the UK, these are there to 'make us safe' are they? So once we are 'safe' the US will pack up these bases and leave? It was necessary to fight the upstart corporal it seems, why then did the US choose not to until they were attacked by Japan? War Is A Racket. You can fight the next one...
|
|
|
Post by armchairfan on Jan 24, 2023 16:54:08 GMT 1
That the US, along with the majority of "west"-leaning countries have a legitimate interest in keeping the world a relatively safe place, as in the case in most of the liberal democracies, and, by logical extension, free from the malignant influences - and military action - of countries who would wish us harm should come as no surprise; frankly, I would be more than a little disappointed if we and the US were to fail in that duty of standing up for the rights and privileges we have secured over the years. That there are certain beneficiaries from war I do not doubt, but true or not, does not negate the necessity of sometimes HAVING to go to war.....was it necessary to fight that upstart corporal 80-odd years ago? What has any of that got to do with one nation effectively aiding and abetting (possibly instigating) a coup in another sovereign nation? Let alone a coup against a seemingly democratically elected leader. Keeping us safe? Are you absolutely sure we are not effectively an occupied territory? How long has the US had military bases in the UK and on mainland Europe? How many military bases does the US have worldwide? How many foreign nations have military bases on US soil? Taking the ones in the UK, these are there to 'make us safe' are they? So once we are 'safe' the US will pack up these bases and leave? It was necessary to fight the upstart corporal it seems, why then did the US choose not to until they were attacked by Japan? War Is A Racket. You can fight the next one...  Arrant nonsense and irrelevance, in the main - you can search out some imaginary and false moral equivalence should you so desire, but don't expect me to join in with you; if you are unable to see the difference between fighting for our current way of life, and therefore AGAINST regimes like that lead by Mr Putin, then I am deeply sorry for you.
|
|
|
Post by neilsalop on Jan 24, 2023 19:07:21 GMT 1
What has any of that got to do with one nation effectively aiding and abetting (possibly instigating) a coup in another sovereign nation? Let alone a coup against a seemingly democratically elected leader. Keeping us safe? Are you absolutely sure we are not effectively an occupied territory? How long has the US had military bases in the UK and on mainland Europe? How many military bases does the US have worldwide? How many foreign nations have military bases on US soil? Taking the ones in the UK, these are there to 'make us safe' are they? So once we are 'safe' the US will pack up these bases and leave? It was necessary to fight the upstart corporal it seems, why then did the US choose not to until they were attacked by Japan? War Is A Racket. You can fight the next one... Arrant nonsense and irrelevance, in the main - you can search out some imaginary and false moral equivalence should you so desire, but don't expect me to join in with you; if you are unable to see the difference between fighting for our current way of life, and therefore AGAINST regimes like that lead by Mr Putin, then I am deeply sorry for you. I have to agree to a certain extent with kp, war is in many cases a racket, not all wars, but many of them.
As a family we lost people in the Afghan war. He chose to join the Royal Marines and he knew he might have to go to war and might not come back. In fact he had to write a letter to his immediate family before he went, so he understood fully there was no guarantee that he would return. Doesn't make it any easier. What has that war achieved? What did the Iraq war achieve? What did Russia's war in Afghanistan achieve? Nothing, apart from uniting the populace against the invaders. The same thing is happening now in Ukraine, the harder Putin hits them, the more determined the fight back.
At what stage do you think that NATO should get involved? How many British deaths are you prepared to accept? Is a potential nuclear war a viable option for the west? Yes we should be helping out the Ukrainians as much as we can and Germany is expected to sign off on the use of Leopards in the coming days. It's not a decision made lightly and rightly so. Any perceived escalation from our side will only end end up putting Putin's back up and who knows where that will lead?
|
|
|
Post by armchairfan on Jan 24, 2023 20:02:54 GMT 1
Arrant nonsense and irrelevance, in the main - you can search out some imaginary and false moral equivalence should you so desire, but don't expect me to join in with you; if you are unable to see the difference between fighting for our current way of life, and therefore AGAINST regimes like that lead by Mr Putin, then I am deeply sorry for you. Â I have to agree to a certain extent with kp, war is in many cases a racket, not all wars, but many of them.
As a family we lost people in the Afghan war. He chose to join the Royal Marines and he knew he might have to go to war and might not come back. In fact he had to write a letter to his immediate family before he went, so he understood fully there was no guarantee that he would return. Doesn't make it any easier. What has that war achieved? What did the Iraq war achieve? What did Russia's war in Afghanistan achieve? Nothing, apart from uniting the populace against the invaders. The same thing is happening now in Ukraine, the harder Putin hits them, the more determined the fight back.
At what stage do you think that NATO should get involved? How many British deaths are you prepared to accept? Is a potential nuclear war a viable option for the west? Yes we should be helping out the Ukrainians as much as we can and Germany is expected to sign off on the use of Leopards in the coming days. It's not a decision made lightly and rightly so. Any perceived escalation from our side will only end end up putting Putin's back up and who knows where that will lead?
As I said in my, probably ill-tempered, response to kp, I do not dispute that there have been, over many centuries, beneficiaries of war; I get the impression that you believe the same, but I totally reject the implication that all wars are "rackets" instigated with the very purpose of making certain groups "rich". As to when or whether NATO should become involved directly is very much a decision for Ukraine and the NATO Council to reach, and I would not presume to second-guess any discussions which may take place. Whether Mr Putin would instigate a nuclear exchange is not down to him alone, as he needs to keep his current side-line apologists (notably China) onside and I don't think that the long-term plans of China will be met with unqualified agreement to such an insane and despicable move - China would simply not permit it....but only in my opinion!
|
|
|
Post by armchairfan on Jan 25, 2023 14:01:15 GMT 1
The latest news is, it seems, that Ukraine may get its Leopard MBTs along with Challenger 2s, and possibly even some Abrams; the predictable Russian response is that thus constitutes a "provocation" - as if invading another sovereign country was an act of kindness - and that, as a result, Russia should now consider any German military installations as legitimate targets, although this, it must be admitted, not from an official Kremlin spokesman; it does beg the question whether there is ANYONE sane left over there!
|
|
|
Post by staffordshrew on Jan 25, 2023 14:30:23 GMT 1
War may be a racket, but Putin was the one that started it. Nothing would have changed if he hadn't made the move.
|
|
|
Post by neilsalop on Jan 25, 2023 19:11:55 GMT 1
The latest news is, it seems, that Ukraine may get its Leopard MBTs along with Challenger 2s, and possibly even some Abrams; the predictable Russian response is that thus constitutes a "provocation" - as if invading another sovereign country was an act of kindness - and that, as a result, Russia should now consider any German military installations as legitimate targets, although this, it must be admitted, not from an official Kremlin spokesman; it does beg the question whether there is ANYONE sane left over there!I'd hazard a guess at no.
|
|
|
Post by returnofthehype on Jan 25, 2023 19:21:56 GMT 1
Sooner putin finishes the job the better all round…push him much further and it will be ending quicker than anyone would imagine…there is no possible way putin will be defeated without pushing the button
|
|
|
Post by armchairfan on Jan 25, 2023 20:13:57 GMT 1
Sooner putin finishes the job the better all round…push him much further and it will be ending quicker than anyone would imagine…there is no possible way putin will be defeated without pushing the button Many thanks for your properly-considered opinion; not one I share, but you are welcome to it!
|
|
|
Post by Worthingshrew on Jan 25, 2023 22:50:33 GMT 1
I’ve ceased to take any notice of Putin’s pronouncements- he calls white black and black white. It’s purely for home consumption.
|
|
|
Post by neilsalop on Jan 26, 2023 7:57:21 GMT 1
Sooner putin finishes the job the better all round…push him much further and it will be ending quicker than anyone would imagine…there is no possible way putin will be defeated without pushing the button All round to your house then. I assume you have a fully stocked nuclear bunker. Do we need bring anything?
|
|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 26, 2023 8:58:25 GMT 1
Sooner putin finishes the job the better all round… Do you really think that? And what job? What do you think his end game is? And what do you think the consequences would be for the people of Ukraine (taking into account the atrocities that have already been reported)? And whilst I appreciate a humiliated Putin may become a further danger, we also have to consider just how dangerous an emboldened Putin may become. I mean, after Ukraine, who's next. Considering the Russians first target at the start of the invasion was Kyiv (rather than the Donbas region), I think its fair to say that Ukraine is fighting for its very existence.
|
|
|
Post by returnofthehype on Jan 26, 2023 9:46:52 GMT 1
Sooner putin finishes the job the better all round… Do you really think that? And what job? What do you think his end game is? And what do you think the consequences would be for the people of Ukraine (taking into account the atrocities that have already been reported)? And whilst I appreciate a humiliated Putin may because a further danger, we also have to consider just how dangerous an emboldened Putin may become. I mean; after Ukraine, who's next. Considering the Russians first target at the start of the invasion was Kyiv (rather than the Donbas region), I think its fair to say that Ukraine is fighting for its very existence. 100% I think that, any right minded person wouldn’t! What do you want a long draw out war, in the hope they over run Russia, expect Putin to take being defeated………Oh just in case he doesn’t win by non nuclear means, give him the opportunity to nuke Ukraine, kill 100’s of thousand innocent people and stand there like all you American arse lickers favorite nation and justify by saying it saved life’s be ending the was!! This is the same America that is demanding the world unites against this murderous invasion of another country, yet said nothing whist it’s most trusted ally was invaded on its doorstep…this lol The America and us by the way, invaded Iraq as they said they had missies that could wipe out Times Square with a push of a button…. The same America that blockaded Cuba because they didn’t want any Russian ships there….as naturally they would pose a massive risk to THERE national security…. Can’t imagine why Russia felt justified in what there doing after an elected Ukrainian government was overthrown by an America/west supported mouth piece….who then proceeded to allow multi nation army drills, each year since he was installed, yes installed is the correct word,oversaw thr biggest ever increase in spending and recruitment in Ukraine military history… And all this with the back drop of an agreement that we wouldn’t go in countries on there border..:. The next question is relatively straightforward and determine how backwood certain members on here are…..would be happy if the uk government did not use military force if a Russian backed coup place in Republic of Ireland…replace the Irish with Canada for you obviously numerous Americans on the board. One flanal point……Going forward why would any non nuclear country spend a single penny on defence, if the precedent now is you get everything without payment up front? Above not actually the last….before you moan about spelling,…which people will now…it’s early and my phone is 🤯 GOOD MORNING
|
|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 26, 2023 10:02:15 GMT 1
Do you really think that? And what job? What do you think his end game is? And what do you think the consequences would be for the people of Ukraine (taking into account the atrocities that have already been reported)? And whilst I appreciate a humiliated Putin may because a further danger, we also have to consider just how dangerous an emboldened Putin may become. I mean; after Ukraine, who's next. Considering the Russians first target at the start of the invasion was Kyiv (rather than the Donbas region), I think its fair to say that Ukraine is fighting for its very existence. 100% I think that, any right minded person wouldn’t! Well at least we can agree on that. Morning...
|
|
|
Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jan 26, 2023 10:05:32 GMT 1
Do you really think that? And what job? What do you think his end game is? And what do you think the consequences would be for the people of Ukraine (taking into account the atrocities that have already been reported)? And whilst I appreciate a humiliated Putin may because a further danger, we also have to consider just how dangerous an emboldened Putin may become. I mean; after Ukraine, who's next. Considering the Russians first target at the start of the invasion was Kyiv (rather than the Donbas region), I think its fair to say that Ukraine is fighting for its very existence. 100% I think that, any right minded person wouldn’t! What do you want a long draw out war, in the hope they over run Russia, expect Putin to take being defeated………Oh just in case he doesn’t win by non nuclear means, give him the opportunity to nuke Ukraine, kill 100’s of thousand innocent people and stand there like all you American arse lickers favorite nation and justify by saying it saved life’s be ending the was!! This is the same America that is demanding the world unites against this murderous invasion of another country, yet said nothing whist it’s most trusted ally was invaded on its doorstep…this lol The America and us by the way, invaded Iraq as they said they had missies that could wipe out Times Square with a push of a button…. The same America that blockaded Cuba because they didn’t want any Russian ships there….as naturally they would pose a massive risk to THERE national security…. Can’t imagine why Russia felt justified in what there doing after an elected Ukrainian government was overthrown by an America/west supported mouth piece….who then proceeded to allow multi nation army drills, each year since he was installed, yes installed is the correct word,oversaw thr biggest ever increase in spending and recruitment in Ukraine military history… And all this with the back drop of an agreement that we wouldn’t go in countries on there border..:. The next question is relatively straightforward and determine how backwood certain members on here are…..would be happy if the uk government did not use military force if a Russian backed coup place in Republic of Ireland…replace the Irish with Canada for you obviously numerous Americans on the board. One flanal point……Going forward why would any non nuclear country spend a single penny on defence, if the precedent now is you get everything without payment up front? Above not actually the last….before you moan about spelling,…which people will now…it’s early and my phone is 🤯 GOOD MORNING
Wow! I thought you couldn't get RT in this country any more? This is like a daily news bulletin.
Let me guess, the Russians are "rescuing" the "ethnic Russians" in Ukraine who speak Russian?
|
|
|
Post by returnofthehype on Jan 26, 2023 10:22:04 GMT 1
100% I think that, any right minded person wouldn’t! What do you want a long draw out war, in the hope they over run Russia, expect Putin to take being defeated………Oh just in case he doesn’t win by non nuclear means, give him the opportunity to nuke Ukraine, kill 100’s of thousand innocent people and stand there like all you American arse lickers favorite nation and justify by saying it saved life’s be ending the was!! This is the same America that is demanding the world unites against this murderous invasion of another country, yet said nothing whist it’s most trusted ally was invaded on its doorstep…this lol The America and us by the way, invaded Iraq as they said they had missies that could wipe out Times Square with a push of a button…. The same America that blockaded Cuba because they didn’t want any Russian ships there….as naturally they would pose a massive risk to THERE national security…. Can’t imagine why Russia felt justified in what there doing after an elected Ukrainian government was overthrown by an America/west supported mouth piece….who then proceeded to allow multi nation army drills, each year since he was installed, yes installed is the correct word,oversaw thr biggest ever increase in spending and recruitment in Ukraine military history… And all this with the back drop of an agreement that we wouldn’t go in countries on there border..:. The next question is relatively straightforward and determine how backwood certain members on here are…..would be happy if the uk government did not use military force if a Russian backed coup place in Republic of Ireland…replace the Irish with Canada for you obviously numerous Americans on the board. One flanal point……Going forward why would any non nuclear country spend a single penny on defence, if the precedent now is you get everything without payment up front? Above not actually the last….before you moan about spelling,…which people will now…it’s early and my phone is 🤯 GOOD MORNING
Wow! I thought you couldn't get RT in this country any more? This is like a daily news bulletin.
Let me guess, the Russians are "rescuing" the "ethnic Russians" in Ukraine who speak Russian?
Which part in particular do you disagree with or is it all not to your liking? I’m quite happily to be convinced I’m looking at it wrong…if you anyone would like to explain why I’m miles off the mark on any of the above I’m all ears…..
|
|