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Post by martinshrew on Dec 9, 2020 15:30:00 GMT 1
Or was it a case you were trying to be in with the EBF on the terraces? I bet you're still at war with yourself now, trying to paint a picture of left leaning acceptance and "tolerance". Can whoever created this bot that strings together loserous nonsense on all these threads turn it off now? He's really quite something our Neil, isn't he.
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Post by Pilch on Dec 9, 2020 15:36:23 GMT 1
Just out of interest, is there anyone on this board who has been subject to racism? yes, i had a lot at school, bizarre i know but i had a nice sun tan and was the nearest thing to a target i suppose, one of them posts on here , nice chap now
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Post by venceremos on Dec 9, 2020 15:50:38 GMT 1
A chilling reminder on how far this go the other way... My 15 year old daughter said a few nights ago that "you cant be racist to white people", my usual evening mild mannered demeanor a hit, i was furious but I suppose if they get drip fed BLM constantly then they may think it's only ever one way. Hardly chilling. Racism isn't just name calling and personal nastiness, there's a far more subtle form - institutional racism, where a society is structured to give advantages to the prevailing ethnicity (or, to put it another way, to disadvantage the minority). I wouldn't agree with your daughter but, in a society structured over many centuries by white people, she's not entirely wrong either.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 9, 2020 15:52:40 GMT 1
A chilling reminder on how far this go the other way... My 15 year old daughter said a few nights ago that "you cant be racist to white people", my usual evening mild mannered demeanor a hit, i was furious but I suppose if they get drip fed BLM constantly then they may think it's only ever one way. Indeed. And I really don't think we have seen the worst of it yet either, this could well be just the start. Wait until you get a load Critical Race Theory, another import from the US which is starting to seep through into schools, institutions and businesses in the UK. For all their faults at least we have heard the Tories speak up about this and are looking to direct schools on how this must be taught (if indeed they do mean to include it in their teaching). As I dread to think how things would be under Labour, I suspect they would lap this s**t up (and I think that very much plays a part in its current struggles). And its not to be taken lightly this, as your own experience above tells us.👍
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Post by armchairfan on Dec 9, 2020 15:55:55 GMT 1
A chilling reminder on how far this go the other way... My 15 year old daughter said a few nights ago that "you cant be racist to white people", my usual evening mild mannered demeanor a hit, i was furious but I suppose if they get drip fed BLM constantly then they may think it's only ever one way. Yes indeed - that is the scary thing about all this: the constant drip drip of the notion that, just because black people have been more preyed-upon, usually, but not always, by whites, it somehow eliminates the possibility of the reverse occurring; I KNOW, from my "lived-in" experience, what total nonsence that really is!
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Post by filmcrewshrew1 on Dec 9, 2020 15:59:01 GMT 1
A chilling reminder on how far this go the other way... My 15 year old daughter said a few nights ago that "you cant be racist to white people", my usual evening mild mannered demeanor a hit, i was furious but I suppose if they get drip fed BLM constantly then they may think it's only ever one way. Hardly chilling. Racism isn't just name calling and personal nastiness, there's a far more subtle form - institutional racism, where a society is structured to give advantages to the prevailing ethnicity (or, to put it another way, to disadvantage the minority). I wouldn't agree with your daughter but, in a society structured over many centuries by white people, she's not entirely wrong either. No parts of that are very true but we need our children to understand that ALL forms of racism exist and we must stamp it out whatever you race or ethnicity.......if we let her believe you cant be racist to white people you are on a hiding to nothing
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Dec 9, 2020 16:04:57 GMT 1
Re Stutty’s German neighbour, isn’t that xenophobia rather than racism?
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 9, 2020 16:10:27 GMT 1
A chilling reminder on how far this go the other way... My 15 year old daughter said a few nights ago that "you cant be racist to white people", my usual evening mild mannered demeanor a hit, i was furious but I suppose if they get drip fed BLM constantly then they may think it's only ever one way. Yes indeed - that is the scary thing about all this: the constant drip drip of the notion that, just because black people have been more preyed-upon, usually, but not always, by whites, it somehow eliminates the possibility of the reverse occurring; I KNOW, from my "lived-in" experience, what total nonsence that really is! Some of the stuff you see out there today around race and identity (Twitter has been a real eye opener). You're just sat there looking at these people gone out. For the most part when you disagree with someone you still tend to get an idea of where they are coming from, their reasoning; that seems to be diminishing by the minute when it comes to more and more of those on the woke left. Crazy days.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 9, 2020 16:11:51 GMT 1
Re Stutty’s German neighbour, isn’t that xenophobia rather than racism? Yes, I think so. Hence... I suppose it's more so xenophobia we've experienced.
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Dec 9, 2020 16:26:15 GMT 1
Re Stutty’s German neighbour, isn’t that xenophobia rather than racism? Yes, I think so. Hence... I suppose it's more so xenophobia we've experienced. Note to self, stop speed reading threads😔
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Post by armchairfan on Dec 9, 2020 16:40:53 GMT 1
A chilling reminder on how far this go the other way... My 15 year old daughter said a few nights ago that "you cant be racist to white people", my usual evening mild mannered demeanor a hit, i was furious but I suppose if they get drip fed BLM constantly then they may think it's only ever one way. Hardly chilling. Racism isn't just name calling and personal nastiness, there's a far more subtle form - institutional racism, where a society is structured to give advantages to the prevailing ethnicity (or, to put it another way, to disadvantage the minority). I wouldn't agree with your daughter but, in a society structured over many centuries by white people, she's not entirely wrong either. "hardly chilling"? Absolutely right - it is positively frightening! You seem to be operating under the profound misapprehension that society is deliberately "structured" in such a way: in a democracy, the mores, the customs, the very language, are all the direct consequences of the views and customs of the majority, which, in this context, are white; I do not deny that there are some knuckle-dragging idiots in our society, because that is true of ANY society - I know! I can only assume that you wish to "restructure" our society because of the misbehaviour of a small minority of the majority population: for "restructuring" read "revolution". Surely you must realise that in our Western societies, we live today in the most free, fair and enlightened times the human race has EVER known, yet you seem to require its dismantling, one way or another.... am I wrong in that belief?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2020 16:41:13 GMT 1
For all their faults at least we have heard the Tories speak up about this and are looking to direct schools on how this must be taught That comes as a sweet relief! I really feel confident knowing that issues such as race relations in society are being directed by a bunch of upper class old etonians, the leader of who referred to minorities as letter boxes and pikaninnys! 👍
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Post by venceremos on Dec 9, 2020 16:45:06 GMT 1
Hardly chilling. Racism isn't just name calling and personal nastiness, there's a far more subtle form - institutional racism, where a society is structured to give advantages to the prevailing ethnicity (or, to put it another way, to disadvantage the minority). I wouldn't agree with your daughter but, in a society structured over many centuries by white people, she's not entirely wrong either. "hardly chilling"? Absolutely right - it is positively frightening! You seem to be operating under the profound misapprehension that society is deliberately "structured" in such a way: in a democracy, the mores, the customs, the very language, are all the direct consequences of the views and customs of the majority, which, in this context, are white; I do not deny that there are some knuckle-dragging idiots in our society, because that is true of ANY society - I know! I can only assume that you wish to "restructure" our society because of the misbehaviour of a small minority of the majority population: for "restructuring" read "revolution". Surely you must realise that in our Western societies, we live today in the most free, fair and enlightened times the human race has EVER known, yet you seem to require its dismantling, one way or another.... am I wrong in that belief? Yes.
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Post by Valerioch on Dec 9, 2020 16:48:29 GMT 1
For all their faults at least we have heard the Tories speak up about this and are looking to direct schools on how this must be taught That comes as a sweet relief! I really feel confident knowing that issues such as race relations in society are being directed by a bunch of upper class old etonians, the leader of who referred to minorities as letter boxes and pikaninnys! 👍 This government have the most diverse cabinet in gender and ethnicity in history
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 9, 2020 17:04:30 GMT 1
For all their faults at least we have heard the Tories speak up about this and are looking to direct schools on how this must be taught That comes as a sweet relief! I really feel confident knowing that issues such as race relations in society are being directed by a bunch of upper class old etonians, the leader of who referred to minorities as letter boxes and pikaninnys! 👍 Yes, so am I when I look to the alternative. And equalities minister Kemi Badenoch studied at the university of Sussex from what I can see.👍
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 9, 2020 17:24:58 GMT 1
That comes as a sweet relief! I really feel confident knowing that issues such as race relations in society are being directed by a bunch of upper class old etonians, the leader of who referred to minorities as letter boxes and pikaninnys! 👍 This government have the most diverse cabinet in gender and ethnicity in history A very good point that. But then that's something else that seems to have cropped up recently and we see more and more; say the accusation that a black person isn't black unless they happen to think how some think they should think, that a gay person isn't gay unless they think how some think they should think, that a woman isn't a women unless they think how some think they should think. And so on. The most recent public example of this was from Biden during the election campaign when he stated something like "you're not black unless you vote for me". And this is a thing, you do see these accusations thrown about. So as diverse as the current cabinet is, I guess some people just won't see it as such.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2020 17:25:52 GMT 1
Critical Race Theory is about structural and institutional racism.
It's different from the racism Armchairfan experienced, which was at a personal level. As was the racism that I witnessed.
There will also be people like Armchairfan encountered, that will be a fact of life. However, structural and institutional racism can be countered and institutions held to account.
That is worthy of discussion and the government need to keep out of it.
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Post by armchairfan on Dec 9, 2020 17:26:32 GMT 1
"hardly chilling"? Absolutely right - it is positively frightening! You seem to be operating under the profound misapprehension that society is deliberately "structured" in such a way: in a democracy, the mores, the customs, the very language, are all the direct consequences of the views and customs of the majority, which, in this context, are white; I do not deny that there are some knuckle-dragging idiots in our society, because that is true of ANY society - I know! I can only assume that you wish to "restructure" our society because of the misbehaviour of a small minority of the majority population: for "restructuring" read "revolution". Surely you must realise that in our Western societies, we live today in the most free, fair and enlightened times the human race has EVER known, yet you seem to require its dismantling, one way or another.... am I wrong in that belief? Yes. Aahhh - some progress! That being so, I would welcome your thoughts as to proposals for correcting those deficiencies to which you allude
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2020 17:26:49 GMT 1
Not personally, but I have been with friends who have been and I was called a N lover. I was also asked why and how I could have a friend of Pakistani heritage. Though they didn't frame it like that. I got talking to a couple of Asian lads in a pub in Wolverhampton and got called a traitor in the bog. Bit awkward with your John Thomas hanging out and wondering if you're going to have to defend yourself.... All these in the last 5/6 years and obviously extreme. But, sometimes racism is subtle. Appalling I know, drinking in Wolverhampton...I am ashamed...
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 9, 2020 17:34:00 GMT 1
The government have every right to remind schools and teachers about their responsibility when it comes to teaching children. And the government have every right to make sure that schools and teachers are acting lawfully when doing so.
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Post by dachshund on Dec 9, 2020 17:38:27 GMT 1
That comes as a sweet relief! I really feel confident knowing that issues such as race relations in society are being directed by a bunch of upper class old etonians, the leader of who referred to minorities as letter boxes and pikaninnys! 👍 This government have the most diverse cabinet in gender and ethnicity in history No they absolutely do not. A simple google would bring you up to date on this
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 9, 2020 17:42:57 GMT 1
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Post by blamber on Dec 9, 2020 18:08:19 GMT 1
For all their faults at least we have heard the Tories speak up about this and are looking to direct schools on how this must be taught That comes as a sweet relief! I really feel confident knowing that issues such as race relations in society are being directed by a bunch of upper class old etonians, the leader of who referred to minorities as letter boxes and pikaninnys! 👍 Only two members of the cabinet are old Etonians. And one of those is Rees-Mogg who is hardly at the forefront of directing anyone. Most cabinet members were educated at either grammar or comprehensive schools. I think you've been reading too much Socialist Worker.
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Post by armchairfan on Dec 9, 2020 18:15:33 GMT 1
Critical Race Theory is about structural and institutional racism. It's different from the racism Armchairfan experienced, which was at a personal level. As was the racism that I witnessed. There will also be people like Armchairfan encountered, that will be a fact of life. However, structural and institutional racism can be countered and institutions held to account. That is worthy of discussion and the government need to keep out of it. A delightfully contradictory contribution! If so-called critical race theory is indeed about structures and institutions, then the Government, as the leading such body, has an absolute DUTY to not merely take an interest in the matter, but, as the duly democratically elected representatives of the people (society), to guide the debate. If the people don't like that guidance, they will elect a new Government..... democracy again, eh? Disgraceful!
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Post by venceremos on Dec 9, 2020 18:38:41 GMT 1
Aahhh - some progress! That being so, I would welcome your thoughts as to proposals for correcting those deficiencies to which you allude Thanks, teacher, enough with the patronising voice. As with alcoholism and other addictions, acknowledgement of the existence of institutional racism is the first step. You leapt to the conclusion that I was "operating under the profound misapprehension that society is deliberately structured" to be racist. I said no such thing. Confusingly, you then went on to say that our society is the way it is because the majority are white. I think you're saying that the structure of our society has occurred organically as a consequence of that but it's hard to be sure. Then you went off on one, assuming that I want a restructuring of society because there are a small minority of racist idiots. Not content with that assumption, you then passed judgment on your assumption as though I'd said it, by declaring that I want a revolution. Talk about putting words into someone's mouth! I suggest you read/listen more and assume/pontificate less. I agree that our society has grown organically with predominantly, though not exclusively, white European influences. In this context, I'm less interested in the idiocies of some morons with racist beliefs and attitudes. I certainly don't wish to restructure society because of them. They just need to be educated or metaphorically neutered if they can't be educated. The organic growth of societies crystallises over time in the form of its institutions. Hence our legislature, judiciary, civil service, armed forces, emergency services, churches, educational institutions, businesses, media, sporting bodies and so on evolved as predominantly white institutions that increasingly didn't reflect the wider multi-racial, multi-cultural society in which they operated. Does that matter? Perhaps not to a lot of white people, perhaps it does to non-white people. Why? Because if the institutions on which our society is based are disproportionately white, that suggests strongly that white people have advantages that are denied to others. I don't think that's right, do you? You don't have to be abused or threatened to experience racism. Institutional racism is subtle. I once worked for a big multinational professional firm and learned that a partner had denied a young woman the opportunity of a job interview because she was black. He would have denied it of course, if challenged, but somebody relayed to me what was said privately, so I knew the true position. That's one very small example of institutional racism and that woman never knew she'd been a victim of it. You would hope that recruitment policies were now more transparent and fair but how many life opportunities are denied because someone in a position of power acts in such a way, perhaps not even deliberately, perhaps because of some ingrained perspective they have? Some people regard diversity as trendy, leftie nonsense but it's simple common sense - a healthy society's institutions should reflect its population and all should be treated equally. You might believe that's the case but the statistics and anecdotal evidence say otherwise. So yes, you can say I support a restructuring of society if that's what it takes; the sooner, the better too, even if you find that revolutionary. Change is happening, like it or not, though it takes time, but people are understandably and justifiably impatient. I believe that those who simply seek to neuter such change with "all lives matter" platitudes or Marxist BLM bogeyman nonsense are either in denial or have an ulterior motive.
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Post by venceremos on Dec 9, 2020 18:58:58 GMT 1
That comes as a sweet relief! I really feel confident knowing that issues such as race relations in society are being directed by a bunch of upper class old etonians, the leader of who referred to minorities as letter boxes and pikaninnys! 👍 Only two members of the cabinet are old Etonians. And one of those is Rees-Mogg who is hardly at the forefront of directing anyone. Most cabinet members were educated at either grammar or comprehensive schools. I think you've been reading too much Socialist Worker. Is Eton the only private school in the country? Anyway, you're wrong. There are 25 Cabinet ministers (including 4 who attend but aren't in the full Cabinet). Of those 25, 18 attended fee paying schools - 72%. In the country at large, about 6% attend private schools. Diverse? Only if you read the Daily Telegraph.
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Post by armchairfan on Dec 9, 2020 19:06:26 GMT 1
Aahhh - some progress! That being so, I would welcome your thoughts as to proposals for correcting those deficiencies to which you allude Thanks, teacher, enough with the patronising voice. As with alcoholism and other addictions, acknowledgement of the existence of institutional racism is the first step. You leapt to the conclusion that I was "operating under the profound misapprehension that society is deliberately structured" to be racist. I said no such thing. Confusingly, you then went on to say that our society is the way it is because the majority are white. I think you're saying that the structure of our society has occurred organically as a consequence of that but it's hard to be sure. Then you went off on one, assuming that I want a restructuring of society because there are a small minority of racist idiots. Not content with that assumption, you then passed judgment on your assumption as though I'd said it, by declaring that I want a revolution. Talk about putting words into someone's mouth! I suggest you read/listen more and assume/pontificate less. I agree that our society has grown organically with predominantly, though not exclusively, white European influences. In this context, I'm less interested in the idiocies of some morons with racist beliefs and attitudes. I certainly don't wish to restructure society because of them. They just need to be educated or metaphorically neutered if they can't be educated. The organic growth of societies crystallises over time in the form of its institutions. Hence our legislature, judiciary, civil service, armed forces, emergency services, churches, educational institutions, businesses, media, sporting bodies and so on evolved as predominantly white institutions that increasingly didn't reflect the wider multi-racial, multi-cultural society in which they operated. Does that matter? Perhaps not to a lot of white people, perhaps it does to non-white people. Why? Because if the institutions on which our society is based are disproportionately white, that suggests strongly that white people have advantages that are denied to others. I don't think that's right, do you? You don't have to be abused or threatened to experience racism. Institutional racism is subtle. I once worked for a big multinational professional firm and learned that a partner had denied a young woman the opportunity of a job interview because she was black. He would have denied it of course, if challenged, but somebody relayed to me what was said privately, so I knew the true position. That's one very small example of institutional racism and that woman never knew she'd been a victim of it. You would hope that recruitment policies were now more transparent and fair but how many life opportunities are denied because someone in a position of power acts in such a way, perhaps not even deliberately, perhaps because of some ingrained perspective they have? Some people regard diversity as trendy, leftie nonsense but it's simple common sense - a healthy society's institutions should reflect its population and all should be treated equally. You might believe that's the case but the statistics and anecdotal evidence say otherwise. So yes, you can say I support a restructuring of society if that's what it takes; the sooner, the better too, even if you find that revolutionary. Change is happening, like it or not, though it takes time, but people are understandably and justifiably impatient. I believe that those who simply seek to neuter such change with "all lives matter" platitudes or Marxist BLM bogeyman nonsense are either in denial or have an ulterior motive. It seems that you do need a teacher, as I doubt your reading ability: What I said was that you SEEM to be operating under that misapprehension; equally, nowhere did I say that you want a revolution, although I implied it, in order to draw you from your Utopian bunker:thank you so much for your admission that you wish to "restructure" society - please keep trying to do it by democratic means, the evidence of post-war elections being that the Left, especially besotted with the Identity politics of the woke brigade, will fail, either to win future elections, or the heart and mind of British society. Your alternative is....?
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Post by Valerioch on Dec 9, 2020 19:09:11 GMT 1
This government have the most diverse cabinet in gender and ethnicity in history A very good point that. But then that's something else that seems to have cropped up recently and we see more and more; say the accusation that a black person isn't black unless they happen to think how some think they should think, that a gay person isn't gay unless they think how some think they should think, that a woman isn't a women unless they think how some think they should think. And so on. The most recent public example of this was from Biden during the election campaign when he stated something like "you're not black unless you vote for me". And this is a thing, you do see these accusations thrown about. So as diverse as the current cabinet is, I guess some people just won't see it as such. Spot on You only had to watch GMB on Monday to see Piers Morgan telling James Cleverley of the Tories, how he should feel about the Millwall fans. It was and is embarrassing, divisive and dangerous
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2020 19:37:14 GMT 1
Critical Race Theory is about structural and institutional racism. It's different from the racism Armchairfan experienced, which was at a personal level. As was the racism that I witnessed. There will also be people like Armchairfan encountered, that will be a fact of life. However, structural and institutional racism can be countered and institutions held to account. That is worthy of discussion and the government need to keep out of it. A delightfully contradictory contribution! If so-called critical race theory is indeed about structures and institutions, then the Government, as the leading such body, has an absolute DUTY to not merely take an interest in the matter, but, as the duly democratically elected representatives of the people (society), to guide the debate. If the people don't like that guidance, they will elect a new Government..... democracy again, eh? Disgraceful! No, the contradiction is the fact we live in a Liberal Democracy, where free speech is the cornerstone of individual liberty. Individual liberty being a British Value. Educational establishments offer critique, offer theory, that is what happens in a healthy liberal democracy. When the government starts to interfere with those intuitions, it becomes authoritative. Also, in a liberal democracy, the government is only one institution. Other institutions, such as the Police, Military and Judiciary, are free from political interference. As are educational establishments. After all, the UK isn't North Korea is it....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2020 19:41:33 GMT 1
A very good point that. But then that's something else that seems to have cropped up recently and we see more and more; say the accusation that a black person isn't black unless they happen to think how some think they should think, that a gay person isn't gay unless they think how some think they should think, that a woman isn't a women unless they think how some think they should think. And so on. The most recent public example of this was from Biden during the election campaign when he stated something like "you're not black unless you vote for me". And this is a thing, you do see these accusations thrown about. So as diverse as the current cabinet is, I guess some people just won't see it as such. Spot on You only had to watch GMB on Monday to see Piers Morgan telling James Cleverley of the Tories, how he should feel about the Millwall fans. It was and is embarrassing, divisive and dangerous This is a fair point. Likewise, people need to acknowledge that people like Lawrence Fox shouldn't be telling the BAME community that the UK is the most tolerant country in the world when their lived experience is suggests otherwise.
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