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Post by shrewsace on Dec 15, 2019 21:38:40 GMT 1
It's rather a bitter irony that Brexit - which was born of a civil war within the Tory party - ultimately became more toxic for Labour.
The Labour 'centrists' can vent their fury at Corbyn, but reconciling the leave and remain elements of the party's voting coalition was well nigh impossible.
And the self-styled moderates also conveniently forget it was ditching the 'no second referendum' pledge at their behest which was the most damaging move Labour made post-2017.
Without doubt this was a massive factor in its loss of so many Labour heartlands in the north.
The Lib Dems dismal performance exposed the moderates' nonsense that Labour's route to electoral victory was via an 'unambiguous remain' position.
That said, the 'neutral' position Labour arrived at was probably even worse, a gigantic fudge that led to the embarrassing position of potentially campaigning against their own deal.
Corbyn should have taken a harder line here, rather than appeasing the wing of his party that even now are blind to their share of the culpability for the electoral disaster.
One bright spot, however, was the cynical manoeuvring of Jo Swinson leading to the loss of her seat.
In the fullness of time, when Brexit is exposed to be far from the panacea it's been sold as, maybe there will be another backlash.
But the Tories are masters at evading responsibility for their policies.
Without the EU or 'the mess we inherited from the previous Labour government', one worries who the next scapegoat will be.
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Post by tvor on Dec 15, 2019 22:55:19 GMT 1
One bright spot, however, was the cynical manoeuvring of Jo Swinson leading to the loss of her seat. And the DUP losing seats, particularly Nigel Dodds losing his seat, such that Nationalist parties now have a majority of seats in Northern Ireland constituencies.
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GE 2019
Dec 15, 2019 23:45:17 GMT 1
Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 15, 2019 23:45:17 GMT 1
Yep. Sums it up nicely.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2019 7:18:50 GMT 1
It's rather a bitter irony that Brexit - which was born of a civil war within the Tory party - ultimately became more toxic for Labour. The Labour 'centrists' can vent their fury at Corbyn, but reconciling the leave and remain elements of the party's voting coalition was well nigh impossible. And the self-styled moderates also conveniently forget it was ditching the 'no second referendum' pledge at their behest which was the most damaging move Labour made post-2017. Without doubt this was a massive factor in its loss of so many Labour heartlands in the north. The Lib Dems dismal performance exposed the moderates' nonsense that Labour's route to electoral victory was via an 'unambiguous remain' position. That said, the 'neutral' position Labour arrived at was probably even worse, a gigantic fudge that led to the embarrassing position of potentially campaigning against their own deal. Corbyn should have taken a harder line here, rather than appeasing the wing of his party that even now are blind to their share of the culpability for the electoral disaster. One bright spot, however, was the cynical manoeuvring of Jo Swinson leading to the loss of her seat. In the fullness of time, when Brexit is exposed to be far from the panacea it's been sold as, maybe there will be another backlash. But the Tories are masters at evading responsibility for their policies. Without the EU or 'the mess we inherited from the previous Labour government', one worries who the next scapegoat will be. [br Take heart though. Over 10 million people voted for Social Democracy. Once the Johnson government unravels, because it will, a few million more will vote for it.
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GE 2019
Dec 16, 2019 8:35:52 GMT 1
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Post by SouthStandShrew on Dec 16, 2019 8:35:52 GMT 1
Ed Davey being Lib Dem leader would be a good move for all on the centre left.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 16, 2019 9:05:36 GMT 1
So this according to Caroline Flint... Flint: Thornberry Said She’s Glad Her Constituents aren’t as Stupid as Mine
She's got form for this sort of thing Thornberry ('Image from #Rochester' anyone) so I wouldn't put this past her at all. Sure that'll go down well in those constituencies that have just turned blue. Those same constituencies that Labour will need to win back next time around if they are going to have any chance of making it into government.
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Post by another fine mess on Dec 16, 2019 9:36:22 GMT 1
Commiserations to those on here who voted Labour or Lib Dem. It’s gutting; I know.
If it’s any consolation, your worst fears are not going to be realised because Johnson is already showing himself to be a classical liberal, one nation Conservative who is going to level-up opportunity in Britain. Just wait and see.
I’d normally leave the opposition to grieve but I can’t help saying that the degree to which Labour politicians and posters on here are blaming the electorate is unhealthy. This ranges from calling voters stupid to telling them to “own” their decision. Unless Labour is prepared to take a hard, honest look at itself and change, it is unlikely to recover.
Just imagine if, after the referendum, Labour had had enough humility to listen to what disaffected working class people were saying in left behind communities. The "Red Wall" might still be inact. Instead they sneered and called people thick and racist. You reap what you sow.
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Post by shrewsace on Dec 16, 2019 9:50:10 GMT 1
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Post by SeanBroseley on Dec 16, 2019 10:53:59 GMT 1
The last MP I recall doing this was Dave Nellist. He eventually got expelled by the Labour Party.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 16, 2019 11:02:59 GMT 1
Instead they sneered and called people thick and racist.
There's a fair few still doing that looking to my social media feed. They've not learnt a thing. And when you look to that, the structure of the Labour party and who makes up its membership you do wonder just how long it will take for Labour to recover. I just get the feeling that with Labour and its membership now being so middle class that they're all set to continue as is; financially secure and able to afford a Tory government...meaning they won't feel the need to adjust, it will still mean more to be 'ideological pure' rather than putting in place something that might actually see them win an election and govern. I mean immigration is a perfect example of this isn't it? Labour have been told time and time again that they are not trusted on immigration, that many within the UK deem the unprecedented net migration numbers that the UK has seen over the last 20 to 30 years as unsustainable. Yet what did the Labour membership and then in turn the Labour party decide at their conference leading up to the election? As you say, you reap what you sow. As for owning the result, I don't think people will have any issue with that at all looking to what the alternative was.
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Post by SouthStandShrew on Dec 16, 2019 11:41:52 GMT 1
The last MP I recall doing this was Dave Nellist. He eventually got expelled by the Labour Party. A good man Mr Nellist, served Coventry well.
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Post by sheltonsalopian on Dec 16, 2019 12:16:32 GMT 1
Do think Labour would be making a mistake appointing RLB and trying the same recipe three times in a row expecting a different result. No doubt the second referendum policy cost them voters in their traditional heartlands but even at the peak of Corbyn mania in 2017 Labour only managed 262 seats - it's no good piling on votes in safe seats you need to break into the conservative vote in england and you won't do that with another momentum candidate...
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Post by SouthStandShrew on Dec 16, 2019 12:18:52 GMT 1
Do think Labour would be making a mistake appointing RLB and trying the same recipe three times in a row expecting a different result. No doubt the second referendum policy cost them voters in their traditional heartlands but even at the peak of Corbyn mania in 2017 Labour only managed 262 seats - it's no good piling on votes in safe seats you need to break into the conservative vote in england and you won't do that with another momentum candidate... Fully agree and I'm a Corbyn man. Need to win in places as well like Northampton / Crawley etc. Scotland is long gone sadly so "Middle England" is the difference between winning a majority and hoping at best we get a hung parliament.
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Post by shrewsace on Dec 16, 2019 12:31:47 GMT 1
Do think Labour would be making a mistake appointing RLB and trying the same recipe three times in a row expecting a different result. No doubt the second referendum policy cost them voters in their traditional heartlands but even at the peak of Corbyn mania in 2017 Labour only managed 262 seats - it's no good piling on votes in safe seats you need to break into the conservative vote in england and you won't do that with another momentum candidate... I think electing a woman leader from the working class would be a smart move. That said, I'm not convinced R L-B or Angela Rayner are strong enough performers or have the gravitas to persuade the wider electorate they're 'Prime Ministerial'. Kier Starmer is probably closer to what people typically perceive as Prime Ministerial, but he's also tained by the Brexit farce and also another 'metropolitan'. I can't stand Jess Phillips, constantly undermining Corbyn and going as far as to ridicule him on TV, sn1ggering along with some Tories. But she's a media darling, perceived as working class (she isn't) and not from north London - if she can advance the cause of progressive politics and beat Johnson, I'd probably hold my nose. As for Burgon, a big no, just not up to it. Thornberry probably has too much baggage now, too.
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Post by shrewsace on Dec 16, 2019 12:36:03 GMT 1
Earlier today I saw a Lib Dem on Twitter telling Labour they were already making mistakes in their search for a new leader.
Now, I know things are bad for Labour. Very bad.
But they're not 'taking advice on appointing successful leaders and winning elections from the Lib Dems bad'.
**** me!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2019 12:53:04 GMT 1
Commiserations to those on here who voted Labour or Lib Dem. It’s gutting; I know.
If it’s any consolation, your worst fears are not going to be realised because Johnson is already showing himself to be a classical liberal, one nation Conservative who is going to level-up opportunity in Britain. Just wait and see.
I’d normally leave the opposition to grieve but I can’t help saying that the degree to which Labour politicians and posters on here are blaming the electorate is unhealthy. This ranges from calling voters stupid to telling them to “own” their decision. Unless Labour is prepared to take a hard, honest look at itself and change, it is unlikely to recover.
Just imagine if, after the referendum, Labour had had enough humility to listen to what disaffected working class people were saying in left behind communities. The "Red Wall" might still be inact. Instead they sneered and called people thick and racist. You reap what you sow.
Boris has called his new support tantamount to stupid in the past. "Feckless blue collar workers who are drunk or idle and white collar workers are no better"
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GE 2019
Dec 16, 2019 13:09:12 GMT 1
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Post by frankwellshrews on Dec 16, 2019 13:09:12 GMT 1
Commiserations to those on here who voted Labour or Lib Dem. It’s gutting; I know.
If it’s any consolation, your worst fears are not going to be realised because Johnson is already showing himself to be a classical liberal, one nation Conservative who is going to level-up opportunity in Britain. Just wait and see.
I’d normally leave the opposition to grieve but I can’t help saying that the degree to which Labour politicians and posters on here are blaming the electorate is unhealthy. This ranges from calling voters stupid to telling them to “own” their decision. Unless Labour is prepared to take a hard, honest look at itself and change, it is unlikely to recover.
Just imagine if, after the referendum, Labour had had enough humility to listen to what disaffected working class people were saying in left behind communities. The "Red Wall" might still be inact. Instead they sneered and called people thick and racist. You reap what you sow.
Individuals aside (e.g. Emily Thornberry) I don't think it's fair to say the Labour party had a policy of sneering and calling people "thick and racist". Some of their supporters maybe, but not the party itself. There's no point in Labour reaching out to what disaffected working class people in the region's are saying because adapting their position fundamentally goes against what the Labour party is about. Labour is the party of collective action; it just so happens that through the erosion of manufacturing/industrial jobs, cuts in the public sector and changes in other types or areas of mass employment (destruction of the unions, proliferation of zero hours, mass introduction of false self employment in things like courier jobs etc) that this is now a concept that's more familiar to middle class workers in white collar jobs who are still fairly likely to be employed by a large company with decent ts and cs and therefore still see a benefit to collective bargaining. Looking back with hindsight, Labour should have pushed its policies in this area more; they had clear policies in taking some of Britain's worst employers to task and refreshing the power imbalance between workers and owners (or Labour and Capital, clue's in the name). Labour needs to get someone in who can get that message across more clearly rather than shifting its whole raison d'etre. That just plays right into Tory hands.
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GE 2019
Dec 16, 2019 13:09:30 GMT 1
Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 16, 2019 13:09:30 GMT 1
Can only go on what little I know but Lisa Nandy comes across well. I guess we'll learn more about her going forward but she certainly comes across as someone I could get behind.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2019 14:10:09 GMT 1
The stock market has certainly responded in a positive way to the election result. Good news for all of us who dabble in stocks and shares!
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Post by venceremos on Dec 16, 2019 14:45:18 GMT 1
Commiserations to those on here who voted Labour or Lib Dem. It’s gutting; I know.
If it’s any consolation, your worst fears are not going to be realised because Johnson is already showing himself to be a classical liberal, one nation Conservative who is going to level-up opportunity in Britain. Just wait and see.
I’d normally leave the opposition to grieve but I can’t help saying that the degree to which Labour politicians and posters on here are blaming the electorate is unhealthy. This ranges from calling voters stupid to telling them to “own” their decision. Unless Labour is prepared to take a hard, honest look at itself and change, it is unlikely to recover.
Just imagine if, after the referendum, Labour had had enough humility to listen to what disaffected working class people were saying in left behind communities. The "Red Wall" might still be inact. Instead they sneered and called people thick and racist. You reap what you sow.
Good post, although I disagree with a fair bit of it! I don't think many are blaming the electorate but social media amplifies the noise. Telling someone to own their decision is fair enough though, isn't it? It only means accepting responsibility for the consequences of your actions. Too much is being pre-judged of course. I don't think Johnson will make this a land of milk and honey but I don't think it'll become scorched earth either. We'll muddle along, no doubt. I think the effects of leaving the EU will be felt slowly and slightly over many years. I don't believe all those forecasts that say we'll be worse off will be wrong but the change will be incremental and relative to other countries - our economy might stall or grow slightly whereas it could have grown more, that sort of thing. As for Labour, I don't think they could ever have won. It's easy now to talk about the lost votes in working class towns. Had Labour "listened" to them and followed a purely pro-brexit line they'd have lost their remainer votes instead - it was only the promise of a second referendum that kept those onboard. Labour didn't sneer and call anyone thick and racist. I don't know where you get that idea from. It just found itself with its supporter base divided between leave and remain, whereas the Tories proceeded on the basis that they could win if they regained the Ukip/brexit voters, even at the cost of some of its own centre right support. As ever in British politics, the centre/left is divided but the right coalesces around the Tory party, which is why that relative minority generally wins elections. Until we either have proper electoral reform or the centre/left becomes more pragmatic and less idealistic, that's unlikely to change. Incidentally, does anyone remember this "red wall" being a thing before now? I certainly can't recall it being discussed before - perhaps it's just a 2019 media invention.
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GE 2019
Dec 16, 2019 14:51:21 GMT 1
Post by venceremos on Dec 16, 2019 14:51:21 GMT 1
So this according to Caroline Flint... Flint: Thornberry Said She’s Glad Her Constituents aren’t as Stupid as Mine
She's got form for this sort of thing Thornberry ('Image from #Rochester' anyone) so I wouldn't put this past her at all. Sure that'll go down well in those constituencies that have just turned blue. Those same constituencies that Labour will need to win back next time around if they are going to have any chance of making it into government. Thornberry's response to that story: "The quote Caroline attributed to me today is a total and utter lie. I’ve never said that to anyone, nor anything like it, nor would I ever think it. I once told Michael Fallon: ‘You can’t just go round making things up.’ Whatever our differences, let’s not sink into that gutter." There's an irony in Flint and Gareth Snell losing their seats having so publicly opposed any second referendum. Possibly some bitterness too …..
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GE 2019
Dec 16, 2019 15:11:22 GMT 1
Post by venceremos on Dec 16, 2019 15:11:22 GMT 1
Do think Labour would be making a mistake appointing RLB and trying the same recipe three times in a row expecting a different result. No doubt the second referendum policy cost them voters in their traditional heartlands but even at the peak of Corbyn mania in 2017 Labour only managed 262 seats - it's no good piling on votes in safe seats you need to break into the conservative vote in england and you won't do that with another momentum candidate... I think electing a woman leader from the working class would be a smart move. That said, I'm not convinced R L-B or Angela Rayner are strong enough performers or have the gravitas to persuade the wider electorate they're 'Prime Ministerial'. Kier Starmer is probably closer to what people typically perceive as Prime Ministerial, but he's also tained by the Brexit farce and also another 'metropolitan'. I can't stand Jess Phillips, constantly undermining Corbyn and going as far as to ridicule him on TV, sn1ggering along with some Tories. But she's a media darling, perceived as working class (she isn't) and not from north London - if she can advance the cause of progressive politics and beat Johnson, I'd probably hold my nose. As for Burgon, a big no, just not up to it. Thornberry probably has too much baggage now, too. I agree it's time Labour had a female leader - if the right candidate is available. I've not been too impressed so far by RL-B and prefer Rayner to her. I prefer Phillips to both of them and I think it would be a short-sighted limitation to say she isn't working class enough. Surely the party and the country are better than that? Starmer might be the best candidate in normal circumstances but, even though he spoke more sensibly about brexit than almost anyone from any party, the taint of that lost argument is a damaging one. Burgon, no. Thornberry, possibly, unless her denial of Flint's unpleasant accusation is untrue. What I would say is that the new leader shouldn't go over the top in trying to win back this supposed working class core base. I remember the days of Foot and Kinnock's leadership when the assumption was always that Labour couldn't win an election with just its core support, it also had to appeal to "aspirational" voters outside the northern and midland urban areas. That's what Blair was able to do. Demographics have changed too. The older the population segment, the more it tends to support the Tories, the younger it is, the more likely it is to vote Labour. I saw a telling analysis of how those lost working class constituencies have seen 20-30% increases in their 60+ populations and similar decreases in their populations of under 30s. I think our elections are much more about young or old and level of education than they are about working or middle class.
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GE 2019
Dec 16, 2019 15:20:56 GMT 1
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Post by SouthStandShrew on Dec 16, 2019 15:20:56 GMT 1
Personally hoping Dan Jarvis fancies it as well
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GE 2019
Dec 16, 2019 16:23:16 GMT 1
Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 16, 2019 16:23:16 GMT 1
So this according to Caroline Flint... Flint: Thornberry Said She’s Glad Her Constituents aren’t as Stupid as Mine
She's got form for this sort of thing Thornberry ('Image from #Rochester' anyone) so I wouldn't put this past her at all. Sure that'll go down well in those constituencies that have just turned blue. Those same constituencies that Labour will need to win back next time around if they are going to have any chance of making it into government. Thornberry's response to that story: "The quote Caroline attributed to me today is a total and utter lie. I’ve never said that to anyone, nor anything like it, nor would I ever think it. I once told Michael Fallon: ‘You can’t just go round making things up.’ Whatever our differences, let’s not sink into that gutter." There's an irony in Flint and Gareth Snell losing their seats having so publicly opposed any second referendum. Possibly some bitterness too ….. Yeah, saw that. I guess it'll all come out in the wash. Could very well be a friend and a friend of a friend told me this, that or the other. Might have some legs to it this if she does continue with her threat to sue...
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GE 2019
Dec 16, 2019 16:29:05 GMT 1
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Post by SouthStandShrew on Dec 16, 2019 16:29:05 GMT 1
Unsure why the new leader has to be Northern.... Boris is about as Northern as a Northern Train being actually on time!
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GE 2019
Dec 16, 2019 16:33:24 GMT 1
Post by venceremos on Dec 16, 2019 16:33:24 GMT 1
Unsure why the new leader has to be Northern.... Boris is about as Northern as a Northern Train being actually on time! They don't, surely. It's a knee-jerk reaction. They don't have to be authentically working class either. The first requirement is for them to be capable of winning broad support and, ultimately, votes and elections - everything else is detail.
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GE 2019
Dec 16, 2019 16:38:36 GMT 1
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Post by shrewsace on Dec 16, 2019 16:38:36 GMT 1
I think electing a woman leader from the working class would be a smart move. That said, I'm not convinced R L-B or Angela Rayner are strong enough performers or have the gravitas to persuade the wider electorate they're 'Prime Ministerial'. Kier Starmer is probably closer to what people typically perceive as Prime Ministerial, but he's also tained by the Brexit farce and also another 'metropolitan'. I can't stand Jess Phillips, constantly undermining Corbyn and going as far as to ridicule him on TV, sn1ggering along with some Tories. But she's a media darling, perceived as working class (she isn't) and not from north London - if she can advance the cause of progressive politics and beat Johnson, I'd probably hold my nose. As for Burgon, a big no, just not up to it. Thornberry probably has too much baggage now, too. I agree it's time Labour had a female leader - if the right candidate is available. I've not been too impressed so far by RL-B and prefer Rayner to her. I prefer Phillips to both of them and I think it would be a short-sighted limitation to say she isn't working class enough. Surely the party and the country are better than that? Not saying she isn't working class enough - on a personal level someone's background doesn't bother me, so long as the policies are right. Just that, personally, I found her playing up the professional Brummie 'Bab' routine in order to differentiate herself from 'metropolitan' Corbyn extremely irritating. But like I say above, that would not stop me voting for a Phillips-led Labour if the policies were right. Loathe as I am to admit it, she probably is the one Labour MP most likely to give Johnson a problem at PMQs and at the polls. Mind you, the fact Labour is attacked for being 'elitist' and 'establishment' by those gleefully voting for a party led by the very personification of those things is something I'll never get my head around. I read that there's an interview out there with someone who said they were voting for Johnson as he seemed like 'a good working class lad'! You cannot tell me the right wing media is not behind that. 'Boris' is a creation of the right wing press, just as 'Maggie' was.
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GE 2019
Dec 16, 2019 16:53:22 GMT 1
Post by martinshrew on Dec 16, 2019 16:53:22 GMT 1
Unsure why the new leader has to be Northern.... Boris is about as Northern as a Northern Train being actually on time! I think not having a tainted past or anything/too much the media can smear them on is a good starting point for the leader of any party. Corbyn was on a hiding to nothing with his terrorist links, regardless of how you view them and what you make of them.
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Post by venceremos on Dec 16, 2019 17:02:41 GMT 1
Unsure why the new leader has to be Northern.... Boris is about as Northern as a Northern Train being actually on time! I think not having a tainted past or anything/too much the media can smear them on is a good starting point for the leader of any party. Corbyn was on a hiding to nothing with his terrorist links, regardless of how you view them and what you make of them. That was a hostage to fortune, I grant you, with the way it was going to be (and already had been) presented by hostile media elements. I have never had the slightest doubt that Corbyn was only making sincere efforts as a back bench MP to do what little he could in the interests of peace and, as he saw it, justice. He was never a traitor (any more than Thatcher was when she negotiated in secret with the IRA) and he was never a friend or facilitator of terrorism - that was a crude and sickening misrepresentation that, all too sadly, works every time. Yes, as things stand, every party is best served if they can find a leader who comes with no baggage and casts no shadow. It's not how it should be but we seem to prefer hollow shells to real politicians.
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GE 2019
Dec 16, 2019 17:12:44 GMT 1
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Post by SouthStandShrew on Dec 16, 2019 17:12:44 GMT 1
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