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GE 2019
Dec 14, 2019 12:38:28 GMT 1
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Post by armchairfan on Dec 14, 2019 12:38:28 GMT 1
As a Labour party member and a Corbyn man I'll be holding my nose and voting Starmer in the leadership election. Going for Momentum's already wanted Burgon wouldn't be a great idea. Given the drubbing we have just had that said id ideally want Andy Burnham but the mayor role up here is a easy gig mostly.
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GE 2019
Dec 14, 2019 12:42:33 GMT 1
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Post by armchairfan on Dec 14, 2019 12:42:33 GMT 1
I take your point about the INDIVIDUAL you propose to support, but surely, the fundamental issue of the POLICIES which you propose to support, is the REAL issue?
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GE 2019
Dec 14, 2019 12:45:02 GMT 1
Post by staffordshrew on Dec 14, 2019 12:45:02 GMT 1
Given your last three posts have just been quoted messages without additional comment I am concerned you may have fallen out of your armchair, hope you are ok. I see you got there in the end. Relief!
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GE 2019
Dec 14, 2019 12:49:06 GMT 1
Post by staffordshrew on Dec 14, 2019 12:49:06 GMT 1
I take your point about the INDIVIDUAL you propose to support, but surely, the fundamental issue of the POLICIES which you propose to support, is the REAL issue? Tell that to the Tories, cuddly Boris has just got in with one snappy slogan.
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Post by SouthStandShrew on Dec 14, 2019 12:54:35 GMT 1
Of course.
Some attention grabbing ones like "free broadband" were poorly advised.
In the main some working class people would be onboard with more taxes towards people can afford just a slightly bit more.
This was never to appeal to the likes in leafy Surrey etc was purely to also take the shine off the odd Brexit stance the party taken after the party conference.
One thing is for sure the election was run by the silent majority finding Jeremy "toxic" no amount of social media posts by the metropolitan in us was going to change that (what I obviously considered a smeared image) away from the people.
So why was Corbyn mostly OK in 2017, because the only slightly engaged hadn't taken on this image as much as they had by 2019...
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Deleted
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GE 2019
Dec 15, 2019 0:30:11 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 0:30:11 GMT 1
You have to be ignorant, thick or a bit of a scumbag to vote Tory. 😂😂😂 knob, enjoy living with us scumbags for the next five glorious year's You always told me heil hitler; that’s when you weren’t theiving my money
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GE 2019
Dec 15, 2019 10:53:21 GMT 1
Post by northwestman on Dec 15, 2019 10:53:21 GMT 1
'Our country may be quietly liberal, tolerant and good-natured – but it is also quietly and deeply patriotic. For too many, particularly in the working class, a vote for an apologist for the IRA and Hamas, an indulger of antisemitism and a convinced pacifist was an unpatriotic, anti-British act – however much they might sympathise with the direction of economic and social policy. Johnson might be a narcissist, a twister, a liar and a toff – but in his witty one-liners and breezy optimism they recognised him, however rogue and untrustworthy, as a member of the English officer class, on the battlefield, at least. Corbyn, in contrast, would have been at home as a conscientious objector. You can respect that position. But a majority of the British will never elect such a man their prime minister'. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/15/unions-colluded-in-fiction-corbyns-plan-never-win-power
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GE 2019
Dec 15, 2019 11:04:16 GMT 1
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Post by SouthStandShrew on Dec 15, 2019 11:04:16 GMT 1
Where has the Boris thread gone?
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Post by northwestman on Dec 15, 2019 11:08:22 GMT 1
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GE 2019
Dec 15, 2019 11:33:20 GMT 1
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Post by shrewder on Dec 15, 2019 11:33:20 GMT 1
Very thought provoking. Time will tell but voting in Boris may prove in the long term to be one of the biggest mistakes ever made by the electorate of this country.
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GE 2019
Dec 15, 2019 11:45:45 GMT 1
Post by northwestman on Dec 15, 2019 11:45:45 GMT 1
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GE 2019
Dec 15, 2019 11:57:51 GMT 1
Post by theriverside on Dec 15, 2019 11:57:51 GMT 1
I can understand, though not agree with, the loathing, of many Labour members, for the "rich" and the "privileged" in society, but for the life of me, I cannot understand the evident disdain some have for traditional Labour voters. One poster on here has described them as "gullible working-class voters in the Midlands and Northern towns" and one does wonder whether calling someone "gullible" is the right way to reclaim their votes in the future. In an essentially democratic system, politics is not only about policies, important though they obviously are, it is about achieving power to deploy those policies, is it not? The Labour Party needs to decide whether the socialist purity of their policies is more important than winning votes - in short did Labour lose because its policies were too extreme, or not sufficiently socialst? Only the Labour Party members can answer that fundamental question, and I await the result of their deliberations with interest. As a Labour party member and a Corbyn man I'll be holding my nose and voting Starmer in the leadership election. Going for Momentum's already wanted Burgon wouldn't be a great idea. Given the drubbing we have just had that said id ideally want Andy Burnham but the mayor role up here is a easy gig mostly.
Richard Burgon would be a gift wrapped early Christmas present for the Conservative Party. I was stunned by his and Barry Gardiners refusal on Thursday night to accept that the public were entitled to disagree with their message and that it was the 'right wing press' and Brexit that should solely take the blame. Seems one of them isn't going to change his mind based on this nugget from this morning -
Shadow justice secretary Richard Burgon says he’s a great admirer of Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn but says negative headlines about him were raised by “a minority” of constituents on the doorstep.
He says people did have genuine concerns but he says “we did get more Labour votes” than in 2015, the problem was “the distribution of those votes”.
Obviously a proponent of redistributing votes as well as wealth. I sincerely hope Momentum get their man as he would be another car crash of a leader only prepared to accept the view of what is now a definite majority. 'For the many not the few'? Don't make me laugh...............
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Post by northwestman on Dec 15, 2019 12:09:56 GMT 1
If someone like Rebecca Long-Bailey gets the Leadership job and the Corbyn acolytes continue to maintain control over the NEC and the party then Labour are finished.
Which would leave us with no credible opposition and effectively an elected dictatorship.
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GE 2019
Dec 15, 2019 12:34:00 GMT 1
Post by SeanBroseley on Dec 15, 2019 12:34:00 GMT 1
People throwing their hats in the ring need to shut up. The NEC need to meet and set-out the timetable. I believe that Burgon is more likely to go for the deputy leadership. The front-runners among people who are concerned to frame the debate are Starmer and Lammy. Other than a small one I don't know what sort of Labour Party people are looking for when they say that.
It is infantilising the electorate to say that they were duped into voting Conservative. What should be done is to ensure that people who voted Conservative own the decision they made. People in Telford need to own that they will lose their (dangerous) A&E, for example.
And while infantilising the electorate is wrong it is no better to say that the electorate is always right. That is consumerist nonsense. The marketplace of ideas can suffer market failures just as markets in the economy do. Being a liar was the least of Thatcher's sins but it is the essence of Johnson's identity.
Adam Smith wrote in the Wealth of Nations that the butcher, baker and the candlestick maker (or some such) served our interests through pursuing their own interest not by being altruistic. But they lived cheek by jowl with their customers and knew there was a social network (in the proper real world sense) that was a constraint on them charging too high a price or diluting the quality of their produce.
But in the modern economy we get "pink slime", bank clients being sold financial instruments that are designed by the bank to be betted against because they are "full of s**t". And in politics you get a government that will tell us it's full political programme after it is elected.
The market will not drive this behaviour out. Instead a Gresham's dynamic will set-in where bad behaviour drives out good behaviour.
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GE 2019
Dec 15, 2019 13:01:05 GMT 1
Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 15, 2019 13:01:05 GMT 1
As long as the care is universal, does it matter who funds it? I mean there isn't an awful lot to go on there so it'll be interesting to see what they are proposing but I find this aversion to some change, to some sort of private insurance a tad difficult to understand. I guess that might come about from living outside the UK and knowing that there are others ways of funding health and social care. We have both public and private health insurance here in Germany and as far as I am aware, it is universal. There are other models around the world we can look to and learn from or? I think the flat rejection and fear that people have regarding 'private' care is a little premature. Its as if they automatically equate it with US health care (which doesn't have the best reputation) but it doesn't automatically mean that surely. So why 'alarmed', is there more to this to get an idea of what they are proposing?
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GE 2019
Dec 15, 2019 13:08:41 GMT 1
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Post by cheggersdrinkspop on Dec 15, 2019 13:08:41 GMT 1
We already have insurance systems for social care, they are called NI payments that you make throughout your working life, and now increased by employer contributions. The other one is where you are forced to sell your property, that you have paid for with your own money, that you legally earned, and this is the taken from you quite legally without any recourse. The whole mismanagement of peoples money that is paid in taxes/NI etc is bordering on criminal, yet there is no accountability on how it is spent. This is why it is almost laughable to believe any manifesto when they cannot get the basic issues of peoples wellbeing and care right.
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Post by servernaside on Dec 15, 2019 13:14:08 GMT 1
The poll at the top of the page merely shows how out of touch and extremist many of the posters on this site actually are.
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GE 2019
Dec 15, 2019 13:25:47 GMT 1
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Post by cheggersdrinkspop on Dec 15, 2019 13:25:47 GMT 1
The poll at the top of the page merely shows how out of touch and extremist many of the posters on this site actually are. I think this comment applies to the views on the football front too!!!!!!
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Post by SeanBroseley on Dec 15, 2019 13:29:17 GMT 1
The poll at the top of the page merely shows how out of touch and extremist many of the posters on this site actually are. I think this comment applies to the views on the football front too!!!!!! Sure. OR it may have something to do with the age demographic of the voters. Anyway turnout was low.
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GE 2019
Dec 15, 2019 15:45:02 GMT 1
Post by northwestman on Dec 15, 2019 15:45:02 GMT 1
If someone like Rebecca Long-Bailey gets the Leadership job and the Corbyn acolytes continue to maintain control over the NEC and the party then Labour are finished. Which would leave us with no credible opposition and effectively an elected dictatorship. And here we go! The proverbial kiss of death for the Labour Party. "Rebecca Long-Bailey has emerged as an early favourite, receiving endorsements from shadow justice secretary Richard Burgon and praise from John McDonnell".
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GE 2019
Dec 15, 2019 16:08:22 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 16:08:22 GMT 1
The poll at the top of the page merely shows how out of touch and extremist many of the posters on this site actually are. Or perhaps the majority are under 45 who again voted in this election against the Tories !!!
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Drew
Midland League Division One
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GE 2019
Dec 15, 2019 16:22:18 GMT 1
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Post by Drew on Dec 15, 2019 16:22:18 GMT 1
I think Dan Jarvis would do well. A former major in the British Army, well respected and likely to appeal to more moderate voters.
I agree that RLB would struggle again. She would be a Momentum puppet. The question for Labour members is, do they want to continue with the hard left ideological stance or do they actually want to become electable?
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GE 2019
Dec 15, 2019 16:45:08 GMT 1
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Post by theriverside on Dec 15, 2019 16:45:08 GMT 1
I think Dan Jarvis would do well. A former major in the British Army, well respected and likely to appeal to more moderate voters. I agree that RLB would struggle again. She would be a Momentum puppet. The question for Labour members is, do they want to continue with the hard left ideological stance or do they actually want to become electable? The majority of Labour members are basically Momentum influenced so it would take a serious change in direction for them to vote for anything other than more of the same. Asking turkeys to vote for Christmas to coin a well used phrase, I could also suggest that their manifesto for the next election is already written......oven ready 😉
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GE 2019
Dec 15, 2019 17:00:53 GMT 1
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Post by SouthStandShrew on Dec 15, 2019 17:00:53 GMT 1
I think Dan Jarvis would do well. A former major in the British Army, well respected and likely to appeal to more moderate voters. I agree that RLB would struggle again. She would be a Momentum puppet. The question for Labour members is, do they want to continue with the hard left ideological stance or do they actually want to become electable? I like Clive Lewis as well... Hoping Burnham comes out and fancies it. Need to be a "broad church" again.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 17:17:25 GMT 1
It is infantilising the electorate to say that they were duped into voting Conservative. What should be done is to ensure that people who voted Conservative own the decision they made. People in Telford need to own that they will lose their (dangerous) A&E, for example. Spot on. And those 'centrists' and 'moderates' who usually vote Labour, but couldn't because of Corbyn, need to own their decision.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 17:20:31 GMT 1
The poll at the top of the page merely shows how out of touch and extremist many of the posters on this site actually are. Out of touch? Suppose that depends on how the last 10 years have affected people's lives. Glad you're good though...
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GE 2019
Dec 15, 2019 17:47:49 GMT 1
Post by servernaside on Dec 15, 2019 17:47:49 GMT 1
The poll at the top of the page merely shows how out of touch and extremist many of the posters on this site actually are. Or perhaps the majority are under 45 who again voted in this election against the Tories !!! Dream on Comrade.
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GE 2019
Dec 15, 2019 17:48:48 GMT 1
Post by servernaside on Dec 15, 2019 17:48:48 GMT 1
The poll at the top of the page merely shows how out of touch and extremist many of the posters on this site actually are. Out of touch? Suppose that depends on how the last 10 years have affected people's lives. Glad you're good though... I'm great. Thanks for asking. Merry Christmas.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 18:40:31 GMT 1
Or perhaps the majority are under 45 who again voted in this election against the Tories !!! Dream on Comrade. Fact about the voting but Brexiters and Tories are not too good with facts.
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GE 2019
Dec 15, 2019 19:55:58 GMT 1
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Post by cheggersdrinkspop on Dec 15, 2019 19:55:58 GMT 1
The poll at the top of the page merely shows how out of touch and extremist many of the posters on this site actually are. Out of touch? Suppose that depends on how the last 10 years have affected people's lives. Glad you're good though... I think the original poster was instigating that the poll on here was nowhere near what happened in the actual election, but happy to be corrected. By the ignore my like of your reply I pressed the wrong button.
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