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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2017 15:47:01 GMT 1
I don't know what Rob does, but impression I get is that there are local authority workers helping, but there doesn't seem to be much overall leadership from the people in charge. Reports today that Ealing council is going to be involved now. Thing is, this is the richest council in the country in central london Perhaps but from reading the Guardian this morning and watching Sky News this afternoon you would be under the impression that the local council is doing nothing. That's why I was asking if Rob works for the local council because if he does then the reports that this has been left to the local community and volunteers to handle seems a little off. As he is clearly doing something as I'm sure are his colleagues. Just came to mind after looking to the news today and reading the post from yesterday didn't tally. What I assume you were painfully trying to establish Stutty is whether reports on tv and in print are a true reflection of what is happening . It would seem that the local authority have given up and buggered off home leaving total confusion whereas the opposite is true according to Rob. I totally agree , some people somewhere are being somewhat mischievious and I don't think it is Rob. Perhaps if you have a certain agenda and don't want to delve too deep to learn the truth then it is all too easy to latch onto an easy target and muddy the waters or even stick the boot in ! There will be a full and detailed report I have no doubt , people will be fighting for their political lives , claims and counter claims will abound and we may get somewhere near the truth but the blame will be spread thinly . Who reported what when and where , who knew what and who made decisions when , particularly financial decisions . The Council, Government and those who like to portray themselves as leaders of the local community, pillars of society even , will be looking to cover their arses . In the meantime I truly hope that the victims of this terrible tragedy are not forgotten , those who survived are looked after and that something good comes out of this disaster . No matter what your political persuasion let's also hope that in the aftermath the media do justice to those who are suffering and report truthfully and accurately . If you are suggesting Stutty that recent articles may suggest otherwise I would whole heartedly agree .
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 18, 2017 16:04:27 GMT 1
Perhaps but from reading the Guardian this morning and watching Sky News this afternoon you would be under the impression that the local council is doing nothing. That's why I was asking if Rob works for the local council because if he does then the reports that this has been left to the local community and volunteers to handle seems a little off. As he is clearly doing something as I'm sure are his colleagues. Just came to mind after looking to the news today and reading the post from yesterday didn't tally. What I assume you were painfully trying to establish Stutty is whether reports on tv and in print are a true reflection of what is happening . Painful? Nah. Just looking to understand whether what I am seeing in the media is a true reflection of what is going on down there considering what Shambles posted here. So just asked a simple question regarding who the chap works for as it wasn't 100% clear to me in the post. That's all.
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Post by frankwellshrews on Jun 18, 2017 16:09:38 GMT 1
If I'm understanding this right, the council's housing stock is run by an ALMO which also, uniquely, happens to be controlled by the local tenants management organisation.
My understanding is that, for a capital project like this, the ALMO would essentially put it out to tender, pick the one that offers "best value" (usually, but not always, the cheapest), check that it complies with all the safety regs (It did) and recharge it on a cost basis to the council so any underspend will sit with the provider, not the council or its ALMO.
Ultimately, public sector bodies are being told by government and voters alike to cut costs. Imagine what the reaction would have been if they'd have bought the more expensive one on the grounds of safety; they'd never get a pat on the back for it as this would never have happened but you'd get every man and his dog complaining about "council waste".
The bottom line is there should have been more stringent legislation in place to protect those council tenants but instead our legislative (aka our government) apparently places cost cutting and efficiency above human lives.
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Post by thesensationaljt on Jun 18, 2017 16:22:03 GMT 1
It is common practice to advise people in flats to stay in their rooms in high rise blocks in the event of fire. Should an incident occur, the Fire Service will want to commandeer the lift to use to transport personnel and equipment to the scene. Under normal circumstances, as long as they are behind a corridor fire door, the residents are deemed to be "in a place of relative safety".
Water is supplied to any floor by a thing called a wet/dry riser. This is basically a long metal hollow pipe which runs horizontally from the ground to the top floor. A wet riser, is one which is already charged with water, a dry one has to be charged via a street hydrant. The riser is in a red cupboard clearly marked "wet/dry riser, and there's one on every floor. The door is opened by a yale EZZ key. By using the one lock, Firefighters can gain access to any riser cupboard, even if it isn't their patch. The coupling inside is also for standard hose. There should always be a fire hydrant close to the flats entrance. The Fire Service will either walk, or take the lift to the floor below the incident, so that when they open the lift door, they are not surrounded by smoke or flame. They then ascend the stairs to the floor in question.
All this is purely academic, as in this instance, due to the unusual circumstances, the firefighters were severely limited to what action they could take.
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Post by wakemanender on Jun 18, 2017 18:30:34 GMT 1
We can only imagine the absolute chaos and panic which has gone on behind the scenes in the offices of the council bosses. Files for these flats will be everywhere with the blame game being in full swing. Loyalty between staff at the top will go out of the window. Council bosses will come to realise why they are paid huge salaries. They now face many months of worry and stress pending a probable criminal charge. As a Police Officer many years ago I worked on a fraud case for two years involving a Council, many sub contractors and architects. It was very obvious during the investigation that relevant paperwork had either gone missing or had been altered. The blame game between people who had worked closely together for many years was astonishing. I really don't envy the Police Officers carrying out what will be a very complex and difficult investigation with the whole country watching and wanting justice. I have no doubt the truth will come out and there will be criminal proceedings but it will take a long time sadly. Hopefully much of the evidence has already been seized from the council offices with visits to various sub contractors in full swing.
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Post by andygroundo on Jun 18, 2017 18:31:29 GMT 1
What I assume you were painfully trying to establish Stutty is whether reports on tv and in print are a true reflection of what is happening . Painful? Nah. Just looking to understand whether what I am seeing in the media is a true reflection of what is going on down there considering what Shambles posted here. So just asked a simple question regarding who the chap works for as it wasn't 100% clear to me in the post. That's all. The way I read Robs post with his use of words and phrases such as we, helped coordinate ect has was involved at the sharp end. A simple trawl through his posting history suggests someone working within and with a good knowledge of local government. You can always use the PM system to ask him direct. From what he said in his post is that several independent organisations set up places for people to stay which was clouding the issue for the council. I think it pretty obvious the council were out of there depth and lacked leadership from the top. Sadly those at the coal face like Rob the flak. Council leader dismisses calls to resign over chaotic Grenfell Tower response www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/18/council-leader-nick-paget-brown-grenfell-tower-response
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jun 18, 2017 18:33:51 GMT 1
Now the Mayor is out in force blaming the government and the local authority.
Political hand wringing of the highest order.
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Post by shrewsace on Jun 18, 2017 18:43:40 GMT 1
Was it the Guardian and Sky News saying the local authority wasn't doing enough, or were they reporting comments from people in the community saying things along those lines?
I've no doubt council employees have been working very hard in impossibly difficult circumstances and are bearing the brunt of residents' anger.
But there does appear to have been a lack of leadership/coordination from the top.
And given Theresa May has admitted the support for those affected wasn't good enough, particularly at first, I'm not sure the reports can be considered that outlandish.
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Post by calimero on Jun 18, 2017 18:52:31 GMT 1
Imagine what the reaction would have been if they'd have bought the more expensive one on the grounds of safety; they'd never get a pat on the back for it as this would never have happened but you'd get every man and his dog complaining about "council waste". I'm pretty sure almost no-one, bar a few cranks, would complain about a tiny amount extra - such as £5k is - for fire safety.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jun 18, 2017 19:06:48 GMT 1
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jun 18, 2017 20:22:44 GMT 1
I honestly think this could bring down an already weak government
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2017 20:37:32 GMT 1
I honestly think this could bring down an already weak government To be fair to Hammond he held his own reasonably well there.
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Post by thesensationaljt on Jun 18, 2017 20:49:03 GMT 1
As a non politico, I must be the only one who would wish the various political parties would stop this sickening point scoring and see all energies put into looking after the residents and seeing these scenes can't be repeated, instead of looking for photo calls showing them in a good light.
Pathetic barstewards, politicians, and while we're at it, so are the agenda driven press.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2017 20:54:08 GMT 1
If you read Robs post it's pretty obvious he works for the council in that area. Its also obvious from his post the council has been overwhelmed by the whole situation, he actually says that. What I don't understand is why ALL local councils don't have an emergency plan with designated members of staff with an emergency plan ready to take over immediately? Gas explosions, floods, etc could happen at any time, anywhere. It is beyond comprehension that Kensington and Chelsea were not prepared. It seems to me that Shambles deserves even more of our praise and support if he is working in such chaos. It's a pity his name on here would seem to be indicative of his leaders. We do of course. As I write I am the most senior manager on call for the council I work for.Ive got my regular training to call upon, my emergency plans and major incident ntws. In 4 years however, I have only dealt with the end of a house collapsing and a major power failure. Straightforward stuff. Others have dealt with floods, gas leaks, petrol crisis, major fires, etc. etc. This is unprecedented.Its the cause not the response that people will really need to focus on here. Well done Rob. Stay well x
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Post by andygroundo on Jun 18, 2017 21:02:37 GMT 1
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Post by ssshrew on Jun 18, 2017 21:24:33 GMT 1
What I don't understand is why ALL local councils don't have an emergency plan with designated members of staff with an emergency plan ready to take over immediately? Gas explosions, floods, etc could happen at any time, anywhere. It is beyond comprehension that Kensington and Chelsea were not prepared. It seems to me that Shambles deserves even more of our praise and support if he is working in such chaos. It's a pity his name on here would seem to be indicative of his leaders. We do of course. As I write I am the most senior manager on call for the council I work for.Ive got my regular training to call upon, my emergency plans and major incident ntws. In 4 years however, I have only dealt with the end of a house collapsing and a major power failure. Straightforward stuff. Others have dealt with floods, gas leaks, petrol crisis, major fires, etc. etc. This is unprecedented.Its the cause not the response that people will really need to focus on here. Well done Rob. Stay well x Thanks for that. What a relief for us all.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2017 0:53:30 GMT 1
Thanks for the responses guys. I'd like to apologise for the indulgent tone of my message and make it clear that the absolute priority are the residents of this area, Grenfell Tower and the evacuated blocks, their families and wider networks.
I think people can draw their own conclusions from the interviews that they have seen from the Leader of the Council and the TMO (conspicuous by his absence) and I would argue that there is a certain alignment with the government as to how the optics and PR of the response has been handled.
I can assure you that everyone is working hard- although I've been at home this weekend I've been logged on postponing bau activities for the week ahead. Liaising with hospital discharge managers and other colleagues within the hospital discharge service as well as central command.
People have every right to be angry. The council have been failed by the government, the staff by the leaders and most importantly the locals by everyone.
With the best will in the world the disaster recovery plan is not going to cover the eventuality of thousands of well wishers turning up to "volunteer" or donate hundred of tons worth of donations or dealing with an incident of this scale surrounded by 24 hour international news. Perhaps this event will add greater clarity to everyone's planning.
There is a lot that we could have done and can still do better. On a personal note I feel pretty devastated and angry about how this has all unfolded, I feel that institutionally we've let our community down in it's hour of need and as a "face" or employee of the wider organisation I also have to face up to this. I am not alone in feeling dismayed by the lack of cohesion and failure to get a grip on the community/volunteer response, a failure to proactively employ a comms strategy fit for the 21st century and fluid nature of events, a perceived inability to take intelligence provided by officers and action it, or to corporately engage with the community. As officers of the council (and only a middle ranking one myself) what can we do. I am not an elected official, I am not a member of the Senior Leadership Team and neither are the majority of my colleagues.
The politicising of this disaster is completely understandable. It's just a shame that it has been a free for all amongst a number of volunteers, and charitable organisations, too much posturing.
I understand that there is a clamour for the LA to ensure that the necessary immediate finances go to the victims and have witnessed the spreadsheet that logs the residents, financial aid provided and their address. I also understand that residents placed in temp accommodation are receiving donations of clothing etc and financial support as well as 3 meals a day and those hotels that don't provide meals money is being provided (£30 was given to one of my clients to pay for supper). On top of this colleagues have been following up with residents, taking requested clothing/donations etc.
Contrary to urban myth we've had 24 hour presence at council run rest centres. Yes there are issues which for obvious reasons I won't go into now, but despite what one politician said the council has been open for business 24 hours per day since Tuesday night/Wednesday morning.
None of the above mitigates the mistakes that have been reported in the press and I am sure when this incident is reviewed the council will be making some very necessary changes to is response plan.
The LA had been advising staff not to wear IDs to work or outside of the rest centres, whilst I understand this sentiment I can't help but feel it perfectly sums up the critique of the invisible council response and defeats the point of having officers on the ground.
The people to come out of this with real credit are the residents and the immediate community. They continue to show amazing support for one another and it is an overwhelming experience spending time amongst these amazing individuals in and around Latimer Road. I really can't explain the acts of generosity that I have seen whether it be people opening up their kitchens, bathrooms and houses to the community or the way in which the community has rallied around it's own, blacks, muslims, whites, Christians, Islam, Atheists and all under the shadow of a charred monument that acts as a permanent reminder of all that is not right in society and of pain and suffering.
Lets hope that we fail them no more (wishful thinking...)
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Post by MartinB on Jun 19, 2017 5:43:03 GMT 1
As a non politico, I must be the only one who would wish the various political parties would stop this sickening point scoring and see all energies put into looking after the residents and seeing these scenes can't be repeated, instead of looking for photo calls showing them in a good light.
Pathetic barstewards, politicians, and while we're at it, so are the agenda driven press. totally agree The political point scoring over all the recent tragedies not only is disgusting and makes the situation worse for all the victims it also contributes to people making poor decisions in the future. Yes have accountability but do it the right way not by political bias
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 19, 2017 8:28:23 GMT 1
Painful? Nah. Just looking to understand whether what I am seeing in the media is a true reflection of what is going on down there considering what Shambles posted here. So just asked a simple question regarding who the chap works for as it wasn't 100% clear to me in the post. That's all. The way I read Robs post with his use of words and phrases such as we, helped coordinate ect has was involved at the sharp end. A simple trawl through his posting history suggests someone working within and with a good knowledge of local government. You can always use the PM system to ask him direct. From what he said in his post is that several independent organisations set up places for people to stay which was clouding the issue for the council. I think it pretty obvious the council were out of there depth and lacked leadership from the top. Sadly those at the coal face like Rob the flak. Council leader dismisses calls to resign over chaotic Grenfell Tower response www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/18/council-leader-nick-paget-brown-grenfell-tower-responseI know he was at the sharp end but the term "we" was not used at any time to specially mention the council. And I didn't PM him as I suspect he's a tad busy at the moment and that's why I asked on here as I gather someone will know the chap and will know what he does. So at the end of the day if you knew that was the case a simple "yes, he works for the local council" would have sufficed...
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 19, 2017 8:38:11 GMT 1
Imagine what the reaction would have been if they'd have bought the more expensive one on the grounds of safety; they'd never get a pat on the back for it as this would never have happened but you'd get every man and his dog complaining about "council waste". I'm pretty sure almost no-one, bar a few cranks, would complain about a tiny amount extra - such as £5k is - for fire safety. If I have read it right the Times was reporting this morning that they have spent more than than in the past to subsidize an annual opera festival. They have plenty in reserve to more than cover 5k. What was needed to help protect these people really is a drop in the ocean when you look to the funds they have available...
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Post by ssshrew on Jun 19, 2017 9:02:25 GMT 1
Thanks for the responses guys. I'd like to apologise for the indulgent tone of my message and make it clear that the absolute priority are the residents of this area, Grenfell Tower and the evacuated blocks, their families and wider networks. I think people can draw their own conclusions from the interviews that they have seen from the Leader of the Council and the TMO (conspicuous by his absence) and I would argue that there is a certain alignment with the government as to how the optics and PR of the response has been handled. I can assure you that everyone is working hard- although I've been at home this weekend I've been logged on postponing bau activities for the week ahead. Liaising with hospital discharge managers and other colleagues within the hospital discharge service as well as central command. People have every right to be angry. The council have been failed by the government, the staff by the leaders and most importantly the locals by everyone. With the best will in the world the disaster recovery plan is not going to cover the eventuality of thousands of well wishers turning up to "volunteer" or donate hundred of tons worth of donations or dealing with an incident of this scale surrounded by 24 hour international news. Perhaps this event will add greater clarity to everyone's planning. There is a lot that we could have done and can still do better. On a personal note I feel pretty devastated and angry about how this has all unfolded, I feel that institutionally we've let our community down in it's hour of need and as a "face" or employee of the wider organisation I also have to face up to this. I am not alone in feeling dismayed by the lack of cohesion and failure to get a grip on the community/volunteer response, a failure to proactively employ a comms strategy fit for the 21st century and fluid nature of events, a perceived inability to take intelligence provided by officers and action it, or to corporately engage with the community. As officers of the council (and only a middle ranking one myself) what can we do. I am not an elected official, I am not a member of the Senior Leadership Team and neither are the majority of my colleagues. The politicising of this disaster is completely understandable. It's just a shame that it has been a free for all amongst a number of volunteers, and charitable organisations, too much posturing. I understand that there is a clamour for the LA to ensure that the necessary immediate finances go to the victims and have witnessed the spreadsheet that logs the residents, financial aid provided and their address. I also understand that residents placed in temp accommodation are receiving donations of clothing etc and financial support as well as 3 meals a day and those hotels that don't provide meals money is being provided (£30 was given to one of my clients to pay for supper). On top of this colleagues have been following up with residents, taking requested clothing/donations etc. Contrary to urban myth we've had 24 hour presence at council run rest centres. Yes there are issues which for obvious reasons I won't go into now, but despite what one politician said the council has been open for business 24 hours per day since Tuesday night/Wednesday morning. None of the above mitigates the mistakes that have been reported in the press and I am sure when this incident is reviewed the council will be making some very necessary changes to is response plan. The LA had been advising staff not to wear IDs to work or outside of the rest centres, whilst I understand this sentiment I can't help but feel it perfectly sums up the critique of the invisible council response and defeats the point of having officers on the ground. The people to come out of this with real credit are the residents and the immediate community. They continue to show amazing support for one another and it is an overwhelming experience spending time amongst these amazing individuals in and around Latimer Road. I really can't explain the acts of generosity that I have seen whether it be people opening up their kitchens, bathrooms and houses to the community or the way in which the community has rallied around it's own, blacks, muslims, whites, Christians, Islam, Atheists and all under the shadow of a charred monument that acts as a permanent reminder of all that is not right in society and of pain and suffering. Lets hope that we fail them no more (wishful thinking...) If anyone is entitled to be indulgent it's you. I am sure all criticism is aimed at your leaders and not you or your fellow employees of the council.
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Post by andygroundo on Jun 19, 2017 12:48:07 GMT 1
The way I read Robs post with his use of words and phrases such as we, helped coordinate ect has was involved at the sharp end. A simple trawl through his posting history suggests someone working within and with a good knowledge of local government. You can always use the PM system to ask him direct. From what he said in his post is that several independent organisations set up places for people to stay which was clouding the issue for the council. I think it pretty obvious the council were out of there depth and lacked leadership from the top. Sadly those at the coal face like Rob the flak. Council leader dismisses calls to resign over chaotic Grenfell Tower response www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/18/council-leader-nick-paget-brown-grenfell-tower-responseI know he was at the sharp end but the term "we" was not used at any time to specially mention the council. And I didn't PM him as I suspect he's a tad busy at the moment and that's why I asked on here as I gather someone will know the chap and will know what he does. So at the end of the day if you knew that was the case a simple "yes, he works for the local council" would have sufficed... Probably 10years or more since I spoke to Rob. I was not sure where he worked. I just used my brain from his posting history ect.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 19, 2017 13:27:52 GMT 1
I know he was at the sharp end but the term "we" was not used at any time to specially mention the council. And I didn't PM him as I suspect he's a tad busy at the moment and that's why I asked on here as I gather someone will know the chap and will know what he does. So at the end of the day if you knew that was the case a simple "yes, he works for the local council" would have sufficed... Probably 10years or more since I spoke to Rob. I was not sure where he worked. I just used my brain from his posting history ect. Geez. All I was looking for was confirmation as it wasn't 100% sure to me from reading his original post. So rather than trawl his history I thought I'd just ask the question. Crazy I know. Anyhow, I think that has now been answered in his second post...
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