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Post by kinder on Jun 17, 2017 12:35:02 GMT 1
I would say that equally applies to anyone trying to point score. You have me total support on this my good mate Irony.
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Post by ssshrew on Jun 17, 2017 12:56:21 GMT 1
I really don't think petty point scoring has a place regarding this subject at all.
If more people had the attitude of Shambles the world and this board would be a far better place.
This is a tragedy of the highest proportion to all those involved and stupid, sarcastic posts help no one.
Well done Shambles for your post and putting the view point of the council workers and everyone who is helping. It will take time for things to calm down, of course people are angry - I am and it's nothing to do with me. Hopefully those who made such drastic decisions will eventually be called to explain themselves and, as with other disasters, there will be changes for the future.
Right I've had my rant so that's it from me on this subject. My thoughts are with the people in London, helpers, volunteers, services, and have been since Wednesday morning.
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Post by jamo on Jun 17, 2017 13:32:08 GMT 1
I really don't think petty point scoring has a place regarding this subject at all. If more people had the attitude of Shambles the world and this board would be a far better place. This is a tragedy of the highest proportion to all those involved and stupid, sarcastic posts help no one. Well done Shambles for your post and putting the view point of the council workers and everyone who is helping. It will take time for things to calm down, of course people are angry - I am and it's nothing to do with me. Hopefully those who made such drastic decisions will eventually be called to explain themselves and, as with other disasters, there will be changes for the future. Right I've had my rant so that's it from me on this subject. My thoughts are with the people in London, helpers, volunteers, services, and have been since Wednesday morning. Agreed. I was struck by the sheer contrast in the content, tone and intent between Shambles post and that of thatcherschild. One speaks volumes the other says nothing. Compare and contrast and you can only come to one conclusion.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jun 17, 2017 14:48:58 GMT 1
I agree about political point scoring, and yet:
1) The immediate response of government is entirely political 2) The failure to respond to recommendations is entirely political 3) The use of private sector contracts driven by profit in major public sector works is entirely political. For £155,000 a sprinkler would have put the fire out and the cladding would not have caught alight. £155k, about £2k per human life.
I echo everything good said about Rob's post. Well done that man.
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Post by frankwellshrews on Jun 17, 2017 15:46:01 GMT 1
I agree about political point scoring, and yet: 1) The immediate response of government is entirely political 2) The failure to respond to recommendations is entirely political 3) The use of private sector contracts driven by profit in major public sector works is entirely political. For £155,000 a sprinkler would have put the fire out and the cladding would not have caught alight. £155k, about £2k per human life. I echo everything good said about Rob's post. Well done that man. So true. This is the elephant in the room. I agree with the "anti point scoring" agenda but, by the same token, it would be wrong not to point out the extent to which cost cutting is putting lives at risk. How many more people have to die before this message gets across?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2017 16:58:44 GMT 1
I might be missing the point here but isn't it how the money was spent rather than how much was spent? If TBH's figures are right above then it would have only taken a small part of the renovation budget to have installed a sprinkler system - so why was that felt to not be needed? Still so many questions we won't get an answer to for a while I suspect.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jun 17, 2017 17:15:06 GMT 1
I might be missing the point here but isn't it how the money was spent rather than how much was spent? If TBH's figures are right above then it would have only taken a small part of the renovation budget to have installed a sprinkler system - so why was that felt to not be needed? Still so many questions we won't get an answer to for a while I suspect. Because it's not in the building regs. It's not in the regs because they're anti regulation in government. If it's not in the regs you don't need to do it, so they don't, and then make more profit, even though it would radically improve safety. They're not there for the safety, they're there for the profit which means minimum cost. So the people will not be liable in law, because the Tories didn't change the law. The same Tories who at the time of the vote had 72 of their mps who were private landlords. And now Queen Theresa has announced a public inquiry. But not an inquest. The inquiry makes recommendations. An inquest can demand legal action. The people died in that tower because of a variety of failings and issues which will come out. But even the process of finding out has been designed to protect the interest of business. So it is innately political, sadly. And it's the kind of political where Mrs May appears for the cameras, speaks to no-one and answers no questions. Whereas most people from the queen to Corbyn just went to be with the people.
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Post by stfcfan87 on Jun 17, 2017 17:24:53 GMT 1
I might be missing the point here but isn't it how the money was spent rather than how much was spent? If TBH's figures are right above then it would have only taken a small part of the renovation budget to have installed a sprinkler system - so why was that felt to not be needed? Still so many questions we won't get an answer to for a while I suspect. Because it's not in the building regs. It's not in the regs because they're anti regulation in government. If it's not in the regs you don't need to do it, so they don't, and then make more profit, even though it would radically improve safety. They're not there for the safety, they're there for the profit which means minimum cost. So the people will not be liable in law, because the Tories didn't change the law. The same Tories who at the time of the vote had 72 of their mps who were private landlords. And now Queen Theresa has announced a public inquiry. But not an inquest. The inquiry makes recommendations. An inquest can demand legal action. The people died in that tower because of a variety of failings and issues which will come out. But even the process of finding out has been designed to protect the interest of business. So it is innately political, sadly. And it's the kind of political where Mrs May appears for the cameras, speaks to no-one and answers no questions. Whereas most people from the queen to Corbyn just went to be with the people. Believe that an inquiry also means the government can control things and what comes out, whereas an inquest is independent of the government.
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Post by shrewsace on Jun 17, 2017 19:07:48 GMT 1
You can't divorce what's happened from the fetishising of 'efficiency savings' and demonising of 'health and safety culture' which have been part of the pervading narrative for some year's now.
Of course the SWP need only the slightest provocation to start waving the 'Tories Out' placards and staging a futile demo.
But it's quite patronising to assume the survivors, their families, friends and the surrounding community don't have any grasp of the political context this has occurred in.
And once the truth begins to emerge, I imagine fringe leftist groups are going to be the very least of the government's worries.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2017 20:33:38 GMT 1
Respect to Shambles/Rob.
Of course this is political, because it's social and cultural. They're mutually inclusive.
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Post by stfcfan87 on Jun 17, 2017 22:30:01 GMT 1
Totally respect Shambles post. Must be an awful situation to be working so hard to help people but not being able to provide answers they want Problem seems to be from those in charge, stories like this are pretty bad: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40315800 and www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40312564You've got the richest borough in the richest city in the country, yet 4 days after the event there seems to be a lack of response from the council leaders or centre point set up with people still sleeping on floors of centres. This has also been published in a paper: pbs.twimg.com/media/DChqEYmXsAIIW3N.jpg:large
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chef
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Post by chef on Jun 18, 2017 0:14:40 GMT 1
One thing that I dont think is overly political is what it shows about some companies attitudes to customers. There are good companies out there but the amount of times I've just been ignored by a landlord for example. In my limited experience the bigger the landlord the more they ignore and bare faced lie to you. To be fair, shops aren't too bad but BT staff must just be told to lie and document nothing and thinking about it, utilities are pretty poor. They can ignore you and you can complain to the watchdog in the particular industry but often they dont take individual cases so there is no enforcement unless you have the dollar take them to court and get messed about for years. Gone a bit ranty here but you get my point. Ordinary people are ignored in this country too often and it's cost scores of lives this time. How many more?
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Post by craigdavid on Jun 18, 2017 4:27:26 GMT 1
Firstly,RIP to the dead and condolences to people who lost family and their homes. So,according to leftists and the left wing media The PM has been exposed as an arsonist.One angry resident stated The PM was alledgedly caught on CCTV rubbing two rocks together on the first floor whilst several of her cabinet were waiting outside as lookouts in a large blue coach with 'Vote Conservative' splattered all over it although this is still unconfirmed. Owen Jones and John McDonnell have been out and about hunting anyone who looks like they would fit into a violent rent-a-mob to join a protest march followed by a compulsory riot. McDonnell has promised to supply petrol bombs and other weapons to attack anyone who has an ounce of authority. Ricky Tomlinson and any of his gang that are still alive are said to be making guest appearances. Gina Miller has dipped into her pocket again to provide all rioters with purple masks. Jones,in standard Mr Angry mode,is said to be furious with lazy young doctors who have refused to join said protest/riot as they won't get out of bed at the weekend for less than a £1000 an hour. Miss Diane Abbott is currently in talks with Mrs Miller struggling to come up with a figure to offer said young,lazy doctors an incentive to rise up. Meanwhile,Mr Corbyn has been spotted strolling around Islington asking people what day it is. My message to the people is....Let the authorities and emergency services get on with their jobs as all this protesting,etc is hindering them massively and lastly,why are you still ramapaging around the local town hall asking for a public enquiry when the PM has already clearly stated one is too take place imminently? Please note everything stated in this post is hearsay and unconfirmed.
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Post by craigdavid on Jun 18, 2017 4:27:42 GMT 1
Firstly,RIP to the dead and condolences to people who lost family and their homes. So,according to leftists and the left wing media The PM has been exposed as an arsonist.One angry resident stated The PM was alledgedly caught on CCTV rubbing two rocks together on the first floor whilst several of her cabinet were waiting outside as lookouts in a large blue coach with 'Vote Conservative' splattered all over it although this is still unconfirmed. Owen Jones and John McDonnell have been out and about hunting anyone who looks like they would fit into a violent rent-a-mob to join a protest march followed by a compulsory riot. McDonnell has promised to supply petrol bombs and other weapons to attack anyone who has an ounce of authority. Ricky Tomlinson and any of his gang that are still alive are said to be making guest appearances. Gina Miller has dipped into her pocket again to provide all rioters with purple masks. Jones,in standard Mr Angry mode,is said to be furious with lazy young doctors who have refused to join said protest/riot as they won't get out of bed at the weekend for less than a £1000 an hour. Miss Diane Abbott is currently in talks with Mrs Miller struggling to come up with a figure to offer said young,lazy doctors an incentive to rise up. Meanwhile,Mr Corbyn has been spotted strolling around Islington asking people what day it is. My message to the people is....Let the authorities and emergency services get on with their jobs as all this protesting,etc is hindering them massively and lastly,why are you still ramapaging around the local town hall asking for a public enquiry when the PM has already clearly stated one is too take place imminently? Please note everything stated in this post is hearsay and unconfirmed.
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Post by craigdavid on Jun 18, 2017 4:28:59 GMT 1
Firstly,RIP to the dead and condolences to people who lost family and their homes. So,according to leftists and the left wing media The PM has been exposed as an arsonist.One angry resident stated The PM was alledgedly caught on CCTV rubbing two rocks together on the first floor whilst several of her cabinet were waiting outside as lookouts in a large blue coach with 'Vote Conservative' splattered all over it although this is still unconfirmed. Owen Jones and John McDonnell have been out and about hunting anyone who looks like they would fit into a violent rent-a-mob to join a protest march followed by a compulsory riot. McDonnell has promised to supply petrol bombs and other weapons to attack anyone who has an ounce of authority. Ricky Tomlinson and any of his gang that are still alive are said to be making guest appearances. Gina Miller has dipped into her pocket again to provide all rioters with purple masks. Jones,in standard Mr Angry mode,is said to be furious with lazy young doctors who have refused to join said protest/riot as they won't get out of bed at the weekend for less than a £1000 an hour. Miss Diane Abbott is currently in talks with Mrs Miller struggling to come up with a figure to offer said young,lazy doctors an incentive to rise up. Meanwhile,Mr Corbyn has been spotted strolling around Islington asking people what day it is. My message to the people is....Let the authorities and emergency services get on with their jobs as all this protesting,etc is hindering them massively and lastly,why are you still ramapaging around the local town hall asking for a public enquiry when the PM has already clearly stated one is too take place imminently? Please note everything stated in this post is hearsay and unconfirmed.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jun 18, 2017 6:25:27 GMT 1
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 18, 2017 8:31:37 GMT 1
Apologies for being nosy here but just out of interest, is Shambles/Rob there helping in an official capacity or volunteering. I ask because he does mention the press and we are constantly reading in the Guardian that the government and local council aren't any help and it's been down to volunteers to help those affected. Just from Rob's post I got the impression he is with the local council and he and it is most certainly is helping.
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Post by jamo on Jun 18, 2017 9:02:58 GMT 1
He lives and works there i believe
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Post by thatcherschild on Jun 18, 2017 10:05:28 GMT 1
I know it's an excellent post,but i don't know whether it's worth x 3.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 18, 2017 12:18:11 GMT 1
Sure. I think it's clear he lives and works there. I'm just asking whether he is working for the local council and is apart of their efforts towards helping the victims. I ask because when I am looking to the UK media you get the impression that all the help given is from volunteers with no council or government help. Just interested s'all, as if Rob is working with the local council then those reports are somewhat misleading.
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Post by stfcfan87 on Jun 18, 2017 13:08:27 GMT 1
Sure. I think it's clear he lives and works there. I'm just asking whether he is working for the local council and is apart of their efforts towards helping the victims. I ask because when I am looking to the UK media you get the impression that all the help given is from volunteers with no council or government help. Just interested s'all, as if Rob is working with the local council then those reports are somewhat misleading. I don't know what Rob does, but impression I get is that there are local authority workers helping, but there doesn't seem to be much overall leadership from the people in charge. Reports today that Ealing council is going to be involved now. Thing is, this is the richest council in the country in central london
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Post by haughmond on Jun 18, 2017 13:17:55 GMT 1
A Summer of Discontent has begun. This country has been hit hard over the last few months, and it has had an effect on the way that people lead their lives. I personally do not want high ranking politicians or local councillors shedding tears on my behalf, or promising me that things will be different, that lessons have been learnt, the usual cover- all excuses that get trotted out. I think that people have had enough of being told what is good for them, to do as we are to old without question. Questions had been asked before, why are we reducing police numbers, the emergency services et al. Why are the rules concerning building regulations being relaxed, why has fire safety become more a case of " self- assessment", where before it was covered under the more stringent and enforceable Shops, Offices and Factories Act?
Why do our elected representatives not listen anymore.T he following months are going to become very uncomfortable for some, and about time.
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Post by andygroundo on Jun 18, 2017 13:20:40 GMT 1
Apologies for being nosy here but just out of interest, is Shambles/Rob there helping in an official capacity or volunteering. I ask because he does mention the press and we are constantly reading in the Guardian that the government and local council aren't any help and it's been down to volunteers to help those affected. Just from Rob's post I got the impression he is with the local council and he and it is most certainly is helping. If you read Robs post it's pretty obvious he works for the council in that area. Its also obvious from his post the council has been overwhelmed by the whole situation, he actually says that.
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Post by thesensationaljt on Jun 18, 2017 13:33:06 GMT 1
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Post by ssshrew on Jun 18, 2017 13:47:07 GMT 1
Apologies for being nosy here but just out of interest, is Shambles/Rob there helping in an official capacity or volunteering. I ask because he does mention the press and we are constantly reading in the Guardian that the government and local council aren't any help and it's been down to volunteers to help those affected. Just from Rob's post I got the impression he is with the local council and he and it is most certainly is helping. If you read Robs post it's pretty obvious he works for the council in that area. Its also obvious from his post the council has been overwhelmed by the whole situation, he actually says that. What I don't understand is why ALL local councils don't have an emergency plan with designated members of staff with an emergency plan ready to take over immediately? Gas explosions, floods, etc could happen at any time, anywhere. It is beyond comprehension that Kensington and Chelsea were not prepared. It seems to me that Shambles deserves even more of our praise and support if he is working in such chaos. It's a pity his name on here would seem to be indicative of his leaders.
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Post by thesensationaljt on Jun 18, 2017 14:04:40 GMT 1
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 18, 2017 14:04:58 GMT 1
Apologies for being nosy here but just out of interest, is Shambles/Rob there helping in an official capacity or volunteering. I ask because he does mention the press and we are constantly reading in the Guardian that the government and local council aren't any help and it's been down to volunteers to help those affected. Just from Rob's post I got the impression he is with the local council and he and it is most certainly is helping. If you read Robs post it's pretty obvious he works for the council in that area. Its also obvious from his post the council has been overwhelmed by the whole situation, he actually says that. He didn't mention it specifically hence why I was just asking for confirmation that was the case.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 18, 2017 14:08:49 GMT 1
Sure. I think it's clear he lives and works there. I'm just asking whether he is working for the local council and is apart of their efforts towards helping the victims. I ask because when I am looking to the UK media you get the impression that all the help given is from volunteers with no council or government help. Just interested s'all, as if Rob is working with the local council then those reports are somewhat misleading. I don't know what Rob does, but impression I get is that there are local authority workers helping, but there doesn't seem to be much overall leadership from the people in charge. Reports today that Ealing council is going to be involved now. Thing is, this is the richest council in the country in central london Perhaps but from reading the Guardian this morning and watching Sky News this afternoon you would be under the impression that the local council is doing nothing. That's why I was asking if Rob works for the local council because if he does then the reports that this has been left to the local community and volunteers to handle seems a little off. As he is clearly doing something as I'm sure are his colleagues. Just came to mind after looking to the news today and reading the post from yesterday didn't tally.
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Post by ssshrew on Jun 18, 2017 14:42:39 GMT 1
Very interesting reading particularly when you consider who is the editor of The Standard now!!
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Post by davycrockett on Jun 18, 2017 15:16:03 GMT 1
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