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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on May 8, 2013 22:43:45 GMT 1
Another new poster on this board to be a clip art apologist. Watch those IP addresses Pilch It does all seem a bit odd doesn't it? First of all the discussion is boring, but they are on here discussing it. Secondly they agree with us, but they are on here disagreeing. Thirdly they get nowhere discussing things reasonably, in fact their arguments appear to be in small pieces on the floor awaiting someone with a broom, but as soon as we call their bluff it is us who are hysterical. I am remarkably calm. The arguments for a change of badge are strong enough to not demand getting stressed.
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Post by thesensationaljt on May 8, 2013 22:47:51 GMT 1
My word, the guest poster free bee has serpently allowed clip art poster(s) a chance to pretend that the comedy lion has lots of supporters, which it doesn't. It's quite clear the supporters who have expressed an opinion, prefer the loggerheads. I know people who aren't bothered either way, but I don't know anyone who likes the comedy lion.
But carry on and pretend we aren't here, but we are, and we aren't going away.
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Post by mightyshrew on May 8, 2013 23:00:24 GMT 1
Badge aside for a moment in reply to one post on page 2 and as I've openly said before. I respect this shirt has allegedly been one of the best selling but its the first shirt I've not brought since I start supporting Shrewsbury 20 years a go. I simply don't like it so to be honest I'm excited and looking and looking forward to the arrival of a new home shirt. Whether clippy or loggerheads if I like the shirt I'll buy it.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2013 23:31:34 GMT 1
In short, Palace did everything that KL8 stands against. They have now gone back to something from a previous badge, but retained the "clipart" eagle. The equivilent of Town bringing back a badge with the bend in the severn, but adding Lenny the logo's head to it. You can paste as many historical factoids as you like pal.
Doesn't change the fact that Crystal Palace FC are The Eagles and have been for well over 40 years. Their fans chant it. It is their identity. An identity which is once again reflected in their official club crest, just as ours should have been in 2007. That was the entire point of the thread.
I suppose it's a bit like blue and amber becoming part of our identity in the 1960s. A relatively late arrival, but now considered to be a cherished part of who we are.
In contrast, we are not the lions and never will be. You are a good poster. There is no need to be so deliberately obtuse.
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Post by Fingers on May 9, 2013 1:08:10 GMT 1
When do we chant 'loggerheads'?
So if clippy is kept for 40years it is part of our fabric? How long before something can be considered fabric of the club?
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Post by almightybob on May 9, 2013 1:18:47 GMT 1
Another new poster on this board to be a clip art apologist. Watch those IP addresses Pilch It does all seem a bit odd doesn't it? First of all the discussion is boring, but they are on here discussing it. Secondly they agree with us, but they are on here disagreeing. Thirdly they get nowhere discussing things reasonably, in fact their arguments appear to be in small pieces on the floor awaiting someone with a broom, but as soon as we call their bluff it is us who are hysterical. I am remarkably calm. The arguments for a change of badge are strong enough to not demand getting stressed. I imagine it's people using the guest posting window looking to get a bite on a subject they know they will do. Any answer will be classed as a bite, with the object being to keep the "bites" coming by trying to be contraversial and changing the subject. Was always likely to happen when guests were allowed again, especially on a subject that is sensitive.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on May 9, 2013 7:50:23 GMT 1
When do we chant 'loggerheads'? So if clippy is kept for 40years it is part of our fabric? How long before something can be considered fabric of the club? What has lion got to do with Shrewsbury, Shropshire, Shrewsbury Town FC, it's history and it's heritage? Nowt.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2013 10:59:51 GMT 1
So if clippy is kept for 40years it is part of our fabric? How long before something can be considered fabric of the club? Can you stop using the 'clippy' sobriquet please? It implies a level of affection which frankly isn't there from many of our fans.
It will never be considered as part of the fabric of the club because our fans haven't taken to it and they never will.
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Post by DF on May 9, 2013 11:04:18 GMT 1
It's been called Clippy since it came out Geoff, chill. Better to call it that than "Town's current badge". Clippy is childish and implies it's something rubbish... which it is.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2013 11:05:24 GMT 1
Better to call it that than "Town's current badge". That's true enough. "Corporate logo" would also be an acceptable turn of phrase.
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Post by venceremos on May 9, 2013 11:50:40 GMT 1
In short, Palace did everything that KL8 stands against. They have now gone back to something from a previous badge, but retained the "clipart" eagle. The equivilent of Town bringing back a badge with the bend in the severn, but adding Lenny the logo's head to it.
You can paste as many historical factoids as you like pal.
Doesn't change the fact that Crystal Palace FC are The Eagles and have been for well over 40 years. Their fans chant it. It is their identity. An identity which is once again reflected in their official club crest, just as ours should have been in 2007. That was the entire point of the thread.
I suppose it's a bit like blue and amber becoming part of our identity in the 1960s. A relatively late arrival, but now considered to be a cherished part of who we are.
In contrast, we are not the lions and never will be. You are a good poster. There is no need to be so deliberately obtuse. That's harsh on floreat2 because he made a very good point. Palace were the Glazers, not the Eagles, which was an entirely manufactured nickname (and thus badge) with no roots in the club's tradition. Of course fans will chant it because it's been around longer than the fans that chant, but I dare say many Palace traditionalists were unhappy to have their club's identity changed on a marketing whim. By coincidence, I was talking to a Brighton fan last night, who told me their rather hostile rivalry with Palace, about to be renewed in the play offs, is artificial and dates back to Palace suddenly becoming the Eagles (Brighton being the Seagulls), rather than being geographic (they're 45 miles apart). I agree there's some similarity with Shrewsbury's adoption of blue and amber, although I'm not sure changing one of two club colours redefines the identity in the same way as a change of nickname and badge. In the end, it all proves a club's identity isn't static but evolves. I agree that Shrewsbury could never be the Lions and I'd welcome a change of badge but, if something sticks around long enough, the diehards die out and the identity evolves.
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Post by Fingers on May 9, 2013 13:01:56 GMT 1
When do we chant 'loggerheads'? So if clippy is kept for 40years it is part of our fabric? How long before something can be considered fabric of the club? What has lion got to do with Shrewsbury, Shropshire, Shrewsbury Town FC, it's history and it's heritage? Nowt. Where was the club considered to have been founded? The Lion Hotel, Wyle Cop. Can't go much further back to your roots than your founding day.
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Post by Fingers on May 9, 2013 13:10:39 GMT 1
So if clippy is kept for 40years it is part of our fabric? How long before something can be considered fabric of the club? Can you stop using the 'clippy' sobriquet please? It implies a level of affection which frankly isn't there from many of our fans.
It will never be considered as part of the fabric of the club because our fans haven't taken to it and they never will.
This is another example of when you need to back up your comments with fact, you really do not promote a good argument for a change other than sweeping statements and general views. Fact is you don't know how merchandise sales are panning out or whether for example the younger generation who as we are all told are the 'future' of the club actually like the badge? Post some facts on here which back up your claims, I seem to see a lot of people in shirts from the last 6 years with Clippy on it attending games than shirts from pre clippy. Add in a whole other line of merchandise and do you think sales are really that bad? Of course some people will buy merchandise whatever the badge as it is 'SHREWSBURY' however a real test is never going to happen is it?
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2013 17:11:59 GMT 1
It will never be considered as part of the fabric of the club because our fans haven't taken to it and they never will.
Post some facts on here which back up your claims, I seem to see a lot of people in shirts from the last 6 years with Clippy on it attending games than shirts from pre clippy. Add in a whole other line of merchandise and do you think sales are really that bad? Mate I’m not being awkward but please remove your avatar and signature. It is sending out completely the wrong message about your views.
Which facts would you like me to post up? I’m working off a general consensus. What if I claimed that Joe Hart is a better goalkeeper than Ian Dunbavin? Or that, generally speaking, the majority of people would rather eat a delicious T-bone steak than dog excrement? Would I need to conduct a survey before making these claims? Or are they so obvious that statistics, pie-charts and spreadsheets are not required?
Merchandise sales should not be taken as an indication of the clip art lion’s popularity. Many people will sacrifice their individual preferences in order to support the club financially, or because they like the design of the shirt itself. It is tolerated, but certainly not liked.
In terms of your point about merchandise, the reality is that we’ve got dozens of fans who actively abstain from buying merchandise as a result of the clip art lion. No one – and I mean no one – buys merchandise because they like the current corporate logo.
You’re also deluding yourself if you think that youngsters like the badge. Being young doesn't necessarily preclude you from having taste or from valuing the identity of the football club you love.
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Post by Fingers on May 9, 2013 17:43:04 GMT 1
Correct you are not being funny and again you make sweeping accusations.
Some youngsters will have only known clippy - to them this is our identity whether you or I like it or not.
This was the point raised above - how long before something becomes fabric? It doesn't mean we have to like it, it is just the way it is and the longer this continues the harder it becomes to break it.
Whoever is leading the campaign really needs to sit down with the club and establish a date where the rightful badge returns if it ever will.
The club will want facts when The Loggerheads campaign approach them why not sound them all out on here now and provide a coherent case for the return?
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2013 17:58:31 GMT 1
Some youngsters will have only known clippy - to them this is our identity whether you or I like it or not. Interesting claim.
You have stated that youngsters regard the clip art lion as our identity. Do you have any facts to back this up? Where is your evidence? A sweeping statement if ever there was one and quite hypocritical given your earlier criticisms.
How long before something becomes part of a club's fabric? If the fans in question do not approve of the change, the answer is never.
The club have stated repeatedly that the club's emblem will be changed in the "near future" but it is imperative that we as supporters keep the pressure on. Your choice of avatar/signature is wholly inappropriate due to the pro-clip art sentiments you have expressed in this thread and I would like you to remove them.
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Post by Bring Back The Loggerheads on May 9, 2013 18:38:02 GMT 1
The facts we have to work with are: 1239 people signed a petition calling for a return of the Loggerheads. SourceOver 80% of respondents to an independent poll stated a preference for the Loggerheads crest. Source
In another survey, which has been handed to the club, 67% of respondents stated a preference for the Loggerheads crest. 21% had no preference. Source
The same survey also found 62% of people said they would spend more money in the club shop if Loggerheads merchandise was on offer.
Another finding of the survey was that use of clipart and removal of Floreat Salopia are most unacceptable aspects of the current crest.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on May 10, 2013 7:54:02 GMT 1
What has lion got to do with Shrewsbury, Shropshire, Shrewsbury Town FC, it's history and it's heritage? Nowt. Where was the club considered to have been founded? The Lion Hotel, Wyle Cop. Can't go much further back to your roots than your founding day. So you are basing this on a 'considered'. And the club have never deemed it necessary to use the lion after more than a 100 years, so why now? For the reason you give above, I doubt that very much. What is fact is that the team play in and represent Shrewsbury, Shropshire. And a lion has nothing to do with either.
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Post by Fingers on May 10, 2013 10:52:27 GMT 1
It's widely accepted STFC were founded at the Lion hotel.
Not saying we should use a lion on our crest but surely this is the only argument to have a lion on our crest? What others can anyone think of?
Survey is all well and good but the numbers aren't good enough at present. I would certainly question all of the surveys for bias especially the 'Independent poll' as one user alluded to in the replies.
It's a no brainer that any clubs crest/badge should include reference to the local community the club was founded for or indeed it's nickname. It's how this information is presented to the club.
They DO NOT have to change the current badge if they do not want to. As above there is always going to be a reason for the club not to look at this be it off season, start of season, trandfer windows etc
I believe the new kit hasn't been announced yet so is there still time to push for this for the upcoming season?
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Post by DF on May 10, 2013 11:02:17 GMT 1
If that's the reason for the Lion than I'm glad they didn't go over the road to the Nags' Head
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on May 10, 2013 11:10:30 GMT 1
If that's the reason for the Lion than I'm glad they didn't go over the road to the Nags' Head Or anywhere near Grope Lane
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2013 11:24:18 GMT 1
Survey is all well and good but the numbers aren't good enough at present. I would certainly question all of the surveys for bias especially the 'Independent poll' as one user alluded to in the replies. Why are you arguing so vociferously against what you actually want? What are you hoping to achieve?
How can you question the integrity of a poll conducted on this very messageboard in which the respondents were anonymous? Incidentally there have been numerous 'Loggerheads Vs Clip art' polls on this forum in the past six years and the results have always been an emphatic victory for the club's true emblem. Usually about 70-80% if memory serves.
Despite not being as regular a feature in their kits as the Loggerheads have been in ours, Liverpool's badge proudly includes the liver bird. Do you think their fans would be pleased if their club removed it and replaced it with an animal linked to a meeting at a pub over one century ago? A horse? A duck? A fox? A bull? They'd be livid and rightly so.
By your logic, they would be expected to shrug their shoulders and say "ah well, you can't go much further back to your roots than your founding day".
Stop defending the indefensible. You're not in a Business Studies lecture now and there are no prizes for poster making or "thinking outside the box".
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Post by Fingers on May 10, 2013 16:26:44 GMT 1
Why are you obsessed with Liverpool?
There is no defending it's trying to establish why this has happened and why it continues to do so, by breaking down the other sides argument it is easier to establish the pro loggerhead points.
What are the salient points for the current badge?
I'd also be wary of emotive language 'proudly' ?
The poll carried out on this site was done so by someone who had an Avatar of the Loggerheads and read the comments posted by another user relating to emotive language.
No need for petulance, it is the only plausible explanation I can think of for The Lion - what are the others?
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2013 18:43:32 GMT 1
On the basis that RW picked the Lenny design in the first place, its unlikely to change whilst he remains Chairman.
Topic therefore redundant
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Post by Bring Back The Loggerheads on May 10, 2013 18:53:59 GMT 1
Let's avoid going over very old ground. The justification which the club provided for the use of a lion was: ""our youngest fans who relate to the lion on the badge to our mascot Lenny the Lion [sic], a symbolic feature of the club for almost 20 years""There was never any mention of The Lion Hotel at all. Since they issued that statement I conducted a survey (which absolutely anybody with internet access was able to fill in and still can here) which was handed to the club, who acknowledged it and released a further statement stating "a gradual implementation of a change of badge is probable"
Now what we are looking for is that "gradual implementation of a change of badge" to begin to take place. A new crest (incorporating three Loggerheads) on could be introduced onto the shirt, programme and website of STFC - everything else can wait until the end of it's lifespan in order to reduce costs.
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Post by outsideperspective on May 10, 2013 19:02:27 GMT 1
On the basis that RW picked the Lenny design in the first place, its unlikely to change whilst he remains Chairman. RW also decided that the new meadow seat colours would be blue and white...... fans were able to change this!!!
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Post by shrewswolf on May 10, 2013 19:27:33 GMT 1
Excuse my ignorance as I'm not about to respond to the debate that has arisen, but to the original post instead..
Whilst not as drastic as the badge change we, erm, 'suffered', the new palace badge to me still looks pretty poor and I reckon the same people would have the same anger if our design changed like that, no?
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Post by mattmw on May 10, 2013 19:34:14 GMT 1
I've said all along I have no problem with the club changing the badge for commercial reasons, but from both a professional marketing back ground and that of a supporter it worries the hell out of me that the club did, and apparently continue to,think using clip art on the clubs badge was a good idea
It's pretty much lesson one, day one of design school that you don't use clip art on a company logo it just makes you look cheap and unprofessional. This idea that "the club had more to worry about" during the move just doesn't carry any weight as its such a basic thing any commercial manager should know.
Fact remains were the only professional club in the football league with a clip art logo, till that changes the campaign will continue
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Post by Nick O'Guest on May 10, 2013 19:55:45 GMT 1
KL8 you are becoming the Nigel Farage of B&A only interested in a single issue. It is becoming really boring. As a student of history you should realise that heritage should be in a museum and legends in Madame Tussards. Time to move on far more important issues to be dealt with between now and August. If you really are a historian then you should know that not all heritage belongs in a museum. You should also know that heritage is both tangible and intangible. As I have mentioned on another thread intangible heritage evolves as practices change over time and place. For example we are creating a new heritage at the GM in our pre – match rituals and in forming new shared experiences with those around us. The tangible link that we as supporters have with the past is the badge. The Loggerheads in its various forms is what we as supporters indentify with. It is also what other club’s supporters indentify with. This identity was important during what, to some, was an emotional move from the old GM to the new GM. Identity is also about soul. A badge that is meaningful and creates a sense of identity to the area/town/ county provides soul and a sense of being. Clippy is nothing; clippy is what it is - clippy. Words cannot begin to describe how that badge makes me feel. A soulless piece of clip art; a poorly thought-out corporate decision at ‘branding’ a provincial football club. We don’t have a brand we have a community with a strong identity, we are Salopians. It has contributed to my steady decline in not actually really caring about the Club like I used to. The Club has lost its soul. It’s a business and I’m a customer. I also have the Loggerheads tattooed on my leg......so you know.....
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