|
|
Post by davycrockett on Jul 6, 2019 14:37:53 GMT 1
Likewise this wonderful gentleman...............
 M
Yes and Boris said at the time there should be a general election. I would like to know what is different about his position apart from the fact that he will be heading a minority government unlike Brown. Party leaders might be elected in this way but invariably they are in opposition. We voted for May (or not as the case may be) and the same with Blair. We didn’t vote for May when she was first chosen by the Conservative MPs, Conservative party members didn’t even get a vote....we only got to vote for her when she called for a snap election to improve her majority but pretty well the same as everything the Conservatives have done that back fired too....Now Boris I thought the Americans had gone mad when they elected Trump but Boris the Clown running the country in political turmoil is the last straw.... My house sale completes on 19/07 and I’m putting everything in storage and moving into my Motorhome to ride out the storm |
|
|
|
Post by shrewinspain on Jul 6, 2019 15:16:35 GMT 1
you denounce democracy as nothing... interesting.... I asked if there was any concrete benefit that you were expecting to get in your day to day life from Brexit beyond a warm feeling from leaving the EU. Your response was basically I will get a warm feeling of self satisfaction from leaving the EU and respecting democracy. So, no concrete benefit to your daily life at all apart from a warm feeling adding to smugness. Downie I appreciate that you would rather be obtuse than give an example of a concrete benefit to your daily life from leaving the EU, but doesn't your inability to think of anything make you question just whether you may be being a tit by supporting such a gamble without a clue why ? You claim that I do not respect democracy - despite the fact that I said nothing about leaving or not - I do. As we get closer to choosing the way to leave the EU; let's vote on it to just make sure we are following the will of the people - a "confirmatory vote" if you will. Wouldn't it be terrible to leave the EU in a method that the majority of the country disagreed with ? You will be waiting a long time before any of the Leave fan boys come up with any benefit of Brexit to their day to day lives. It is truly frightening where we are now - a soundbite culture where nobody bothers to understand what is really going on. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2019 15:20:49 GMT 1
you denounce democracy as nothing... interesting.... Downie I appreciate that you would rather be obtuse than give an example of a concrete benefit to your daily life from leaving the EU, but doesn't your inability to think of anything make you question just whether you may be being a tit by supporting such a gamble without a clue why ? I asked if there was any concrete benefit that you were expecting to get in your day to day life from Brexit beyond a warm feeling from leaving the EU. Your response was basically I will get a warm feeling of self satisfaction from leaving the EU and respecting democracy. So, no concrete benefit to your daily life at all apart from a warm feeling adding to smugness. You say that I do not respect democracy - I do. As we get closer to choosing the way to leave the EU; let's vote on it to just make sure we are following the will of the people - a "confirmatory vote" if you will. Wouldn't it be terrible to leave the EU in a method that the majority of the country disagreed with ? Again i would not be against a confirmatory referendum under the rules that we must leave.. so again there would be a binary choice of the offered deal or no deal.... Obtuse? because i have a different mindset to yours? i respect your opinion... does not mean i agree with it. I dont like the way the ever closer union is going... i dont like the fact that the club was asked to reform by Cameron... he got short shrifted then.. so when you offer the chance to reform within and they say we dont need reform... then there is little option but to leave. you however are like a petulant little child who does not get his own way... and want another vote about staying within the union.. which wod mean ignoring the democratic wish of a majority of those who voted... regardless of the size of the majority. By ignoring it.. democracy dies... The only way is to leave first then have a vote about rejoining. |
|
|
|
Post by highlandshrew on Jul 6, 2019 15:37:55 GMT 1
Downie I appreciate that you would rather be obtuse than give an example of a concrete benefit to your daily life from leaving the EU, but doesn't your inability to think of anything make you question just whether you may be being a tit by supporting such a gamble without a clue why ? I asked if there was any concrete benefit that you were expecting to get in your day to day life from Brexit beyond a warm feeling from leaving the EU. Your response was basically I will get a warm feeling of self satisfaction from leaving the EU and respecting democracy. So, no concrete benefit to your daily life at all apart from a warm feeling adding to smugness. You say that I do not respect democracy - I do. As we get closer to choosing the way to leave the EU; let's vote on it to just make sure we are following the will of the people - a "confirmatory vote" if you will. Wouldn't it be terrible to leave the EU in a method that the majority of the country disagreed with ? Again i would not be against a confirmatory referendum under the rules that we must leave.. so again there would be a binary choice of the offered deal or no deal.... Obtuse? because i have a different mindset to yours? i respect your opinion... does not mean i agree with it. I dont like the way the ever closer union is going... i dont like the fact that the club was asked to reform by Cameron... he got short shrifted then.. so when you offer the chance to reform within and they say we dont need reform... then there is little option but to leave. you however are like a petulant little child who does not get his own way... and want another vote about staying within the union.. which wod mean ignoring the democratic wish of a majority of those who voted... regardless of the size of the majority. By ignoring it.. democracy dies... The only way is to leave first then have a vote about rejoining. Surely the sensible thing to do is to ask the people to confirm the decision they made over 3 years ago in light of the new information now available? All 3 options must be on the ballot paper. Not to do this risks the possibility of taking the biggest political decision of my lifetime (b. 1957) without majority support, which is ludicrous. I know people will say we've already voted, but that was over 3 years ago and we actually gave our elected politicians a mandate to leave on our behalf. They have singularly failed to do this, so the only answer is to go back to the people with concrete proposals for them to vote on. Once a binding decision has been reached we should then hold a general election to elect a new government to carry out the wishes of the majority. Anything less than this will result in more of the same political mess we have had for the last 4 years, since before the referendum, where the established parties are more concerned with their own survival than the wider interests of the people they seek to represent. |
|
|
|
Post by shrewinspain on Jul 6, 2019 15:39:41 GMT 1
Downie I appreciate that you would rather be obtuse than give an example of a concrete benefit to your daily life from leaving the EU, but doesn't your inability to think of anything make you question just whether you may be being a tit by supporting such a gamble without a clue why ? I asked if there was any concrete benefit that you were expecting to get in your day to day life from Brexit beyond a warm feeling from leaving the EU. Your response was basically I will get a warm feeling of self satisfaction from leaving the EU and respecting democracy. So, no concrete benefit to your daily life at all apart from a warm feeling adding to smugness. You say that I do not respect democracy - I do. As we get closer to choosing the way to leave the EU; let's vote on it to just make sure we are following the will of the people - a "confirmatory vote" if you will. Wouldn't it be terrible to leave the EU in a method that the majority of the country disagreed with ? Again i would not be against a confirmatory referendum under the rules that we must leave.. so again there would be a binary choice of the offered deal or no deal.... Obtuse? because i have a different mindset to yours? i respect your opinion... does not mean i agree with it. I dont like the way the ever closer union is going... i dont like the fact that the club was asked to reform by Cameron... he got short shrifted then.. so when you offer the chance to reform within and they say we dont need reform... then there is little option but to leave. you however are like a petulant little child who does not get his own way... and want another vote about staying within the union.. which wod mean ignoring the democratic wish of a majority of those who voted... regardless of the size of the majority. By ignoring it.. democracy dies... The only way is to leave first then have a vote about rejoining. I think obtuse refers to avoiding giving any example of how you think that every day life will improve after Brexit - which is the point being discussed - by talking around the topic on subjects like the second referendum and questioning the result of the first; neither of which were raised or relevant to the question asked. |
|
|
|
Post by northwestman on Jul 7, 2019 9:34:20 GMT 1
|
|
|
|
Post by davycrockett on Jul 7, 2019 9:36:22 GMT 1
Sounds a very sensible man, wonder what his views are on Boris? |
|
|
|
Post by percy on Jul 8, 2019 18:01:16 GMT 1
Downie I appreciate that you would rather be obtuse than give an example of a concrete benefit to your daily life from leaving the EU, but doesn't your inability to think of anything make you question just whether you may be being a tit by supporting such a gamble without a clue why ? I asked if there was any concrete benefit that you were expecting to get in your day to day life from Brexit beyond a warm feeling from leaving the EU. Your response was basically I will get a warm feeling of self satisfaction from leaving the EU and respecting democracy. So, no concrete benefit to your daily life at all apart from a warm feeling adding to smugness. You say that I do not respect democracy - I do. As we get closer to choosing the way to leave the EU; let's vote on it to just make sure we are following the will of the people - a "confirmatory vote" if you will. Wouldn't it be terrible to leave the EU in a method that the majority of the country disagreed with ? Again i would not be against a confirmatory referendum under the rules that we must leave.. so again there would be a binary choice of the offered deal or no deal.... Obtuse? because i have a different mindset to yours? i respect your opinion... does not mean i agree with it. I dont like the way the ever closer union is going... i dont like the fact that the club was asked to reform by Cameron... he got short shrifted then.. so when you offer the chance to reform within and they say we dont need reform... then there is little option but to leave. you however are like a petulant little child who does not get his own way... and want another vote about staying within the union.. which wod mean ignoring the democratic wish of a majority of those who voted... regardless of the size of the majority. By ignoring it.. democracy dies... The only way is to leave first then have a vote about rejoining. Really, you cannot see how not answering the question and diverting to other things is being obtuse ? Are you practising to be a politician ? As you still haven't answered the question I assume that there is no concrete benefit that you perceive to your day to day life aside from a warm glow inside from leaving the EU - a very sad state of affairs. I completely agree that closer political union is not the way to go for the EU. If our MEPs actually got involved they may be able to help the direction of the EU to a different path; but, unfortunately we send muppets like Farage whose attendance record is woeful and the quality of his input when he is there is even worse. To give up and leave is not the sensible course of action - Maggie could see that and to be fair to her she is the last UK politician who took our role in the EU seriously and looked to direct it in a way that is beneficial to us. I'm not sure asking what tangible benefits to your day to day life that you see from Brexit is behaving like a petulant child. A better example perhaps would be to say that we can have a second referendum so long as the principal alternative option is left off the list because people are not allowed to change their minds and it was not the most popular option last time by a slim margin + of course you do not want that to win and it probably would second time out. Not sure how voting on something can be the end of democracy ? Leaving and then rejoining would be stupid beyond belief - Maggie would turn in her grave to hear a true blue Tory suggest that we give up all her hard fought for concessions. |
|
|
|
Post by staffordshrew on Jul 8, 2019 18:25:41 GMT 1
Conservatives, ever considered what your beloved Maggie would have done? I think she would have squashed the idea of a referendum in the first place. But, if it had happened, we know that she didn't like the political side, but liked Common Market trading. so highly likely to have not contemplated a no deal.
So there we are, the Conservative party is more right wing than ever and prepared to put the interests of the Conservative party ahead of the interests of the Country. something that. in her own way. even Maggie would not have done.
Quite frankly Tory supporters should be ashamed of their party at the moment.
|
|
|
|
Post by salop27 on Jul 8, 2019 20:09:07 GMT 1
Maggie who? Very much in the distant past.
It will be very easy to get the same trading benefits we initially joined to get. Get them via a deal or get them via a no deal, when you'd just negotiate a trade deal from November 1st.
|
|
|
|
Post by staffordshrew on Jul 8, 2019 20:36:50 GMT 1
Maggie who? Very much in the distant past. It will be very easy to get the same trading benefits we initially joined to get. Get them via a deal or get them via a no deal, when you'd just negotiate a trade deal from November 1st. I can understand why it's the distant past, the party has changed, and not for the better, so much since those heady days. For example, so many ministers have resigned, will rule themselves out because they can't support Boris/Brexit/no deal Brexit that there is a dearth of talent to take on ministerial roles. Who on earth is going to be Chancellor? Foreign Secretary, Bill Cash? The parties getting older, the supporters are getting older, the diversity is being wiped out. Is there any talent coming up? Are there any thriving young Conservative groups or university groups? As for trade deals, we'll see, it's going to be a massive experiment with the future of this country. But it does look like we will loose a lot of city jobs, just in time manufacturing and small business Euro trading. Our best buddy is inept according to our ambassador, so we will now be giving away our influence in Europe, though we will still be obeying the rules, for example speed liniters on cars rules we have been told will be applied here. It's a big step to take, leaving, with no way back as we would have to accept the Euro to get back in and loose all the other hard won concessions we have, so we won't be going back in again. |
|
|
|
Post by percy on Jul 8, 2019 20:57:08 GMT 1
Maggie who? Very much in the distant past. It will be very easy to get the same trading benefits we initially joined to get. Get them via a deal or get them via a no deal, when you'd just negotiate a trade deal from November 1st. How can you abandon Maggie ?!? truly the Tories are imploding. If you believe that a trade deal on a par with that we currently have with the EU would be very easy to obtain then you clearly have not taken in the facts around existing trade deals and how easily and quickly they were obtained. I was fortunate enough to be invited to a discussion with Roberto Azevedo on a distinguished panel and both his view and that of the panel were somewhat different to yours. You also have to factor in the fact that our most profitable industry - financial services - is currently being gleefully picked apart by our EU colleagues and they will not allow any agreements / concessions in a trade deal to prevent them getting a bigger share of that pie. Even Steve Baker - who I like as an individual, but I do not like his politics - does not pretend that getting a deal to match the benefits of our current status would be so simple from where we are now. He is now getting more worried about a no deal emanating from a breakdown in talks rather than a agreed "free trade exit" which he says could have been achieved 12 months ago if Theresa May had accepted the idea rather than push for the customs union. Incidentally Steve Baker also said that he would revoke Article 50 rather than accept a Brexit deal as bad as that offered by Theresa May - so he is not quite the rabid Leaver that he is painted to be. |
|
|
|
Post by staffordshrew on Jul 8, 2019 21:08:49 GMT 1
Revoking Article 50 and then deciding what we will do democratically from there does make more sense than giving up all we have with the absurd idea we could vote to go back in later.
|
|
|
|
Post by darkshrew on Jul 8, 2019 21:45:30 GMT 1
Come on guys, you cannot let facts and common sense into the argument. Play the game.
|
|
|
|
Post by salop27 on Jul 8, 2019 23:56:05 GMT 1
Revoking Article 50 would lead to civil unrest. As you all know its not going to happen.
Best chance of getting something similar is to carry on having the 31st of October as our leave date and preparing accordingly.
Until the EU realise we will be leaving they're not going to budge. Parliament must get to grips with this. However, we go back to the same old problem that many mps, from all parties, don't want us to ever leave.
This would lead to a general election where pro remain Tory mps would be deselected and in all likely hood a Conservative/Brexit Party coalition. With lib dems the clear remain choice currently Labour would get smashed.
|
|
|
|
Post by staffordshrew on Jul 9, 2019 9:39:38 GMT 1
Revoking Article 50 would lead to civil unrest. As you all know its not going to happen. Best chance of getting something similar is to carry on having the 31st of October as our leave date and preparing accordingly. Until the EU realise we will be leaving they're not going to budge. Parliament must get to grips with this. However, we go back to the same old problem that many mps, from all parties, don't want us to ever leave. This would lead to a general election where pro remain Tory mps would be deselected and in all likely hood a Conservative/Brexit Party coalition. With lib dems the clear remain choice currently Labour would get smashed. Might be reasonable to assume that, just like the electorate, around 48% of MPs don't want to leave? The cynical betrayal of the Country for Party is that the Tory remainers will be canjolled into voting for a leave option with the threat that if they don't they will cause a general election and lose their seat. The problem for the Tory party is that, as usual with politics, they are going for the short term option. If leaving causes economic hardship and job losses then only the Tories can take the blame and it could blight them for a generation. 48% of the electorate will probably already be voting for other parties. Upset too many of the 52% and things get a bit sticky. |
|
|
|
Post by shrewinspain on Jul 9, 2019 12:20:50 GMT 1
|
|
|
|
Post by salop27 on Jul 9, 2019 14:32:40 GMT 1
In 2016 a poll of mps showed 75% voted remain. That might of changed since the general election but I doubt it.
The question on Article 24 is up in the air but it is entirely possible.
|
|
|
|
Post by percy on Jul 9, 2019 14:46:30 GMT 1
In 2016 a poll of mps showed 75% voted remain. That might of changed since the general election but I doubt it. The question on Article 24 is up in the air but it is entirely possible. GATT 24 is not up in the air at all - the WTO have confirmed that it requires an agreement with the EU to come into force; and the EU have said that they would not agree to it being implemented in the event of a 'no deal'. How on earth do you expect the EU to play ball if all they hear is posturing about us not paying the €39bn and being up for a 'no deal' ? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2019 14:56:15 GMT 1
So just as a side note... how do all remainers view the people choosen to replace the old commission of the EU.
Great buch of people voted in by nobody... and all got great CV's
Italy poised to become the next country in crisis and Dutchsebank making 18000 redundant accross the world... right mess this BREXIT thing eh....
|
|
|
|
Post by percy on Jul 9, 2019 15:07:26 GMT 1
So just as a side note... how do all remainers view the people choosen to replace the old commission of the EU. Great buch of people voted in by nobody... and all got great CV's Italy poised to become the next country in crisis and Dutchsebank making 18000 redundant accross the world... right mess this BREXIT thing eh.... The process over EU Commissioner / President nomination is bizarre, but the MEPs can change it AND veto the nominations - the fact that they don't take their jobs seriously is our fault for electing MEPs who effectively or explicitly boycott the process. Deutsche Bank is not well run - it is not an EU institution and is in private hands - it has nothing to do with the EU whatsoever - what is your point ? Italy in crisis ? When has it not been ? |
|
|
|
Post by martinshrew on Jul 9, 2019 16:06:13 GMT 1
Three more Labour peers have resigned this afternoon with another expected to follow due to antisemitism.
"My sad conclusion is that the Labour party is very plainly institutionally antisemitic, and its leader and his circle are antisemitic, having never once made the right judgment call about an issue reflecting deep prejudice. The number of examples is shocking."
Another for Matron and the like to sweep under the carpet. Disgraceful.
|
|
|
|
Post by staffordshrew on Jul 9, 2019 16:50:09 GMT 1
Three more Labour peers have resigned this afternoon with another expected to follow due to antisemitism. "My sad conclusion is that the Labour party is very plainly institutionally antisemitic, and its leader and his circle are antisemitic, having never once made the right judgment call about an issue reflecting deep prejudice. The number of examples is shocking." Another for Matron and the like to sweep under the carpet. Disgraceful. Rubbish, unlike some lesser parties, Labour are open and honest and strive to be inclusive. |
|
|
|
Post by mattmw on Jul 9, 2019 17:01:13 GMT 1
I’ve always felt that revoking article 50 and using a series of treaties to govern the way we leave the EU as the best way for the U.K. to leave in a managed and positive way. Triggering article 50 so soon without a plan was the death knell for a managed brexit right from the start
Revoking article 50 and starting the process again is starting to gain quite a bit of traction with some leave supporting MPs as to coin a phrase it brings control back to the U.K. in the process. Wouldn’t surprise me if it’s the route Johnson goes down
|
|
|
|
Post by martinshrew on Jul 9, 2019 17:03:31 GMT 1
Three more Labour peers have resigned this afternoon with another expected to follow due to antisemitism. "My sad conclusion is that the Labour party is very plainly institutionally antisemitic, and its leader and his circle are antisemitic, having never once made the right judgment call about an issue reflecting deep prejudice. The number of examples is shocking." Another for Matron and the like to sweep under the carpet. Disgraceful. Rubbish, unlike some lesser parties, Labour are open and honest and strive to be inclusive. That's it, sweep it under the carpet like it doesn't matter. How many more need to leave citing antisemitism before you and your leader take it seriously? The peer has suggested it's "unsafe" for Jewish people to be part of the Labour party. That is quite some statement considering you claim it "rubbish". |
|
|
|
Post by salop27 on Jul 9, 2019 17:09:50 GMT 1
In 2016 a poll of mps showed 75% voted remain. That might of changed since the general election but I doubt it. The question on Article 24 is up in the air but it is entirely possible. GATT 24 is not up in the air at all - the WTO have confirmed that it requires an agreement with the EU to come into force; and the EU have said that they would not agree to it being implemented in the event of a 'no deal'. How on earth do you expect the EU to play ball if all they hear is posturing about us not paying the €39bn and being up for a 'no deal' ? If we keep taking no deal off the table the EU won't move on its position though as they know we aren't actually leaving.... GATT 24 is up in the air/in play as the bones of an agreement could be drawn up overnight and signed if both sides agree. The EU want their money and both sides don't want an interruption in trade so you'd think something could be agreed on. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2019 17:36:41 GMT 1
Rubbish, unlike some lesser parties, Labour are open and honest and strive to be inclusive. That's it, sweep it under the carpet like it doesn't matter. How many more need to leave citing antisemitism before you and your leader take it seriously? The peer has suggested it's "unsafe" for Jewish people to be part of the Labour party. That is quite some statement considering you claim it "rubbish". You mean just like the Tories sweep rampant Islamophobia under the carpet in their party with the help of the Tory Press. |
|
|
|
Post by percy on Jul 9, 2019 17:38:10 GMT 1
GATT 24 is not up in the air at all - the WTO have confirmed that it requires an agreement with the EU to come into force; and the EU have said that they would not agree to it being implemented in the event of a 'no deal'. How on earth do you expect the EU to play ball if all they hear is posturing about us not paying the €39bn and being up for a 'no deal' ? If we keep taking no deal off the table the EU won't move on its position though as they know we aren't actually leaving.... GATT 24 is up in the air/in play as the bones of an agreement could be drawn up overnight and signed if both sides agree. The EU want their money and both sides don't want an interruption in trade so you'd think something could be agreed on. Steve Baker is the one to listen to on this. He wants a free trade deal and was involved in the discussions on that last year - he too says that it WOULD HAVE been easy to get an agreement; BUT, he cannot see it now. To get a deal through would require all 27 to agree and some will veto regardless of pressure from the Germans to approve it. That is before you throw the €39bn into the mix where the Germans would not be supportive either. The EU are clear that the disruption to them in a no deal is sub-optimal, but significantly less than any disruption in the rules or fabric of the Union - given a choice between letting us "cherry pick" and a "no deal", they will go with "no deal" every time. The only thing that the EU are nervous about is forcing the UK into a no deal and looking like the bad guy; Boris is playing into their hands by saying that a no deal is ok and setting this stupid deadline. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2019 18:23:29 GMT 1
That's it, sweep it under the carpet like it doesn't matter. How many more need to leave citing antisemitism before you and your leader take it seriously? The peer has suggested it's "unsafe" for Jewish people to be part of the Labour party. That is quite some statement considering you claim it "rubbish". You mean just like the Tories sweep rampant Islamophobia under the carpet in their party with the help of the Tory Press. Indeed. You can smell the hypocrisy. |
|
|
|
Post by staffordshrew on Jul 9, 2019 18:39:55 GMT 1
That's it, sweep it under the carpet like it doesn't matter. How many more need to leave citing antisemitism before you and your leader take it seriously? The peer has suggested it's "unsafe" for Jewish people to be part of the Labour party. That is quite some statement considering you claim it "rubbish". You mean just like the Tories sweep rampant Islamophobia under the carpet in their party with the help of the Tory Press. Not the same though, the Tories hush it up, Labour airs accusations because they do matter. |
|
