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Post by salop27 on Oct 20, 2019 22:48:55 GMT 1
Doesn't matter really who called the referendum and why. Simple fact is we had one, despite it being only advisory everyone said they'd respect the result. Still waiting... If anyone can find any clips of politicians saying they would not respect the result, before the referendum, then please share. Parliament is sovereign. therefore, it cannot put into place legislation that binds a future government i.e. everything can be amended, repealed or replaced. So as far as the "obligation" to implement any legislation goes, it's irrelevant whether an MP did or didn't say they'd respect it. As you admit yourself, it was advisory, as the very concept of a binding referendum undermines the concept of a soverign parliament, something you lot are a bit keen on, i've heard Indeed parliament is sovereign. Problem with the referendum is that parliament voted to let the public decide and implement the result, when you do that you have to follow through. Parliament hasn't hence the people vs parliament situation. Also distorting Parliament currently are the amount of independent mps and mps who have switched sides, really adding fuel to the fire. People are welcome to say these mps are standing up for what they believe in and good on them. Trouble is they are representing the people of their constituents and not themselves. Change teams by all means but call a by election to run it by the people who pay your wages and who you represent.
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Post by welshdan on Oct 20, 2019 23:27:01 GMT 1
Parliament is sovereign. therefore, it cannot put into place legislation that binds a future government i.e. everything can be amended, repealed or replaced. So as far as the "obligation" to implement any legislation goes, it's irrelevant whether an MP did or didn't say they'd respect it. As you admit yourself, it was advisory, as the very concept of a binding referendum undermines the concept of a soverign parliament, something you lot are a bit keen on, i've heard Indeed parliament is sovereign. Problem with the referendum is that parliament voted to let the public decide and implement the result, when you do that you have to follow through. Parliament hasn't hence the people vs parliament situation. Also distorting Parliament currently are the amount of independent mps and mps who have switched sides, really adding fuel to the fire. People are welcome to say these mps are standing up for what they believe in and good on them. Trouble is they are representing the people of their constituents and not themselves. Change teams by all means but call a by election to run it by the people who pay your wages and who you represent. So if things change the MPs should call another vote and ask the people again? 😉
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Oct 21, 2019 6:44:44 GMT 1
Well sure, we knew that from the off. We know parliament is split, we know parliament is unable to make a decision. That is the very reason why parliament made the decision to ask and allow the public to make that decision (in the form of a referendum). The very purpose of the referendum was to allow the public to make a decision that parliament was unable to. So they asked the public. The public gave them the answer. And here we are... Did they though? because it wasn't really an issue before the referendum was offered, other than in the conservative party where eurosceptacism had become increasingly likely to fracture the Tories and jeopardise their ability to form a majority government. Of course there's always been discussion of the pros and cons amongst the plebes but never at such a weapons grade level. Parliament is, and was (as leavers will often claim themselves) strongly in favour of remaining as a whole (on a personal level if not the "what i'll actually vote for to appease constituents" level), and had they decided to keep it in Parliament would have enjoyed a comfortable remain vote. Let's call it for what it was. Cameron had no interest in our opinions on Brexit other than assuming he'd get an obvious remain indication with which to silence internal factional warfare. He done F^%$*ed up. Not sure what you are referring to there. Did they what? Did parliament make the decision to hand the decision of the UK's membership of the EU to the people of the UK in the form a referendum? They did didn't they? Did the people then head out (in record numbers to boot) to make that decision and provide parliament with an answer? They did didn't they? Maybe I've missed what you are getting at but even with that said, the mental gymnastics that you see from those who clearly wish to remain is sommat else. It really doesn't matter how some will try and dress it up, how some wish to interpret it; Parliament asked the people of the UK to make that decision and the people gave them the answer which was (and it doesn't hurt to remind people as it seems people wish to ignore or forget what was actually asked and the answer given)...to Leave the European Union. There was no turn to page two, no second question, it was unconditional. So sure, lets call it out for what it is. Someone ****ed up for sure. Remain ****ed up because they thought they would walk it. Now having made a mess of it and because they didn't get the result they wanted, remain are now trying their level best to unravel it all, annul the result of that first referendum and get people to vote until they get the result they want. This is clear for anyone to see. Its blatantly apparent. Lord know what will happen if there is a second referendum and leave were to win again. How they would then look to get out of it a second time of asking...
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Oct 21, 2019 6:53:41 GMT 1
So what looks to be another crazy, crazy week ahead. So the DUP have hinted that they will look to work with Labour in order to being about a deal that involves a custom union with the EU, they have also apparently hinted they could support a second referendum. And according Starmer, that is something they will look to try and bring about this week with amendments to the withdrawal agreement bill. A week is long time in politics; as it was last week, as it'll prove this week. Its all up in the air, all up for grabs. Who knows when it will end and how... And of course, we're all waiting on what the EU say...
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Post by martinshrew on Oct 21, 2019 7:14:34 GMT 1
Did they though? because it wasn't really an issue before the referendum was offered, other than in the conservative party where eurosceptacism had become increasingly likely to fracture the Tories and jeopardise their ability to form a majority government. Of course there's always been discussion of the pros and cons amongst the plebes but never at such a weapons grade level. Parliament is, and was (as leavers will often claim themselves) strongly in favour of remaining as a whole (on a personal level if not the "what i'll actually vote for to appease constituents" level), and had they decided to keep it in Parliament would have enjoyed a comfortable remain vote. Let's call it for what it was. Cameron had no interest in our opinions on Brexit other than assuming he'd get an obvious remain indication with which to silence internal factional warfare. He done F^%$*ed up. Not sure what you are referring to there. Did they what? Did parliament make the decision to hand the decision of the UK's membership of the EU to the people of the UK in the form a referendum? They did didn't they? Did the people then head out (in record numbers to boot) to make that decision and provide parliament with an answer? They did didn't they? Maybe I've missed what you are getting at but even with that said, the mental gymnastics that you see from those who clearly wish to remain is sommat else. It really doesn't matter how some will try and dress it up, how some wish to interpret it; Parliament asked the people of the UK to make that decision and the people gave them the answer which was (and it doesn't hurt to remind people as it seems people wish to ignore or forget what was actually asked and the answer given)...to Leave the European Union. There was no turn to page two, no second question, it was unconditional. So sure, lets call it out for what it is. Someone ****ed up for sure. Remain ****ed up because they thought they would walk it. Now having made a mess of it and because they didn't get the result they wanted, remain are now trying their level best to unravel it all, annul the result of that first referendum and get people to vote until they get the result they want. This is clear for anyone to see. Its blatantly apparent. Lord know what will happen if there is a second referendum and leave were to win again. How they would then look to get out of it a second time of asking... They claim they'd accept a second vote to leave, but they wouldn't. There would be another excuse.
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Post by highlandshrew on Oct 21, 2019 7:26:14 GMT 1
Not sure what you are referring to there. Did they what? Did parliament make the decision to hand the decision of the UK's membership of the EU to the people of the UK in the form a referendum? They did didn't they? Did the people then head out (in record numbers to boot) to make that decision and provide parliament with an answer? They did didn't they? Maybe I've missed what you are getting at but even with that said, the mental gymnastics that you see from those who clearly wish to remain is sommat else. It really doesn't matter how some will try and dress it up, how some wish to interpret it; Parliament asked the people of the UK to make that decision and the people gave them the answer which was (and it doesn't hurt to remind people as it seems people wish to ignore or forget what was actually asked and the answer given)...to Leave the European Union. There was no turn to page two, no second question, it was unconditional. So sure, lets call it out for what it is. Someone ****ed up for sure. Remain ****ed up because they thought they would walk it. Now having made a mess of it and because they didn't get the result they wanted, remain are now trying their level best to unravel it all, annul the result of that first referendum and get people to vote until they get the result they want. This is clear for anyone to see. Its blatantly apparent. Lord know what will happen if there is a second referendum and leave were to win again. How they would then look to get out of it a second time of asking... They claim they'd accept a second vote to leave, but they wouldn't. There would be another excuse. As I've said before, once the exact terms of any deals have been agreed, a confirmatory referendum should be held backed by an act of parliament making the outcome enshrined in law. This would set an absolute end to the discussions and we can then move on with a new government. To those advocating a general election before or instead of a referendum I would ask 'what happens in the event of a hung parliament'?
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Post by mattmw on Oct 21, 2019 7:47:39 GMT 1
Going to be an exciting week. (Depending on how you class exciting)
Amendments to legislation are key for me and think the big issue won’t be the confirmation referendum but the issue of the customs union. Seems the DUP might lend their support to that along with Labour. Would still achieve brexit but a softer version than Johnson has negotiated
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Post by another fine mess on Oct 21, 2019 9:49:25 GMT 1
Amendments to legislation are key for me The ship has sailed on all that thankfully.
We now have a deal and one that takes us out of the Customers Union and Single Market – but which will give us free trade with the EU and allow us to make similar deals with other countries. Hurrah!
Parliament can’t renegotiate directly with the EU and this government won’t do that either. So, the only way negotiations will be reopened is after an election.
I am now more confident that the government has the votes to get the deal through this week. However, if there has to be an extension to allow time for an election to solve the parliamentary arithmetic, then so be it.
By the way, the idea that another referendum would solve anything is fantasy. Why would I as a Leaver respect this outcome if the last one is ignored?
On the other hand, if we leave, we can all move on. The pro-EU zealots will be free to campaign for re-entry and the rest of country can get on with making the new situation work.
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Post by mattmw on Oct 21, 2019 10:33:35 GMT 1
Amendments to legislation are key for me The ship has sailed on all that thankfully.
We now have a deal and one that takes us out of the Customers Union and Single Market – but which will give us free trade with the EU and allow us to make similar deals with other countries. Hurrah!
Parliament can’t renegotiate directly with the EU and this government won’t do that either. So, the only way negotiations will be reopened is after an election.
I am now more confident that the government has the votes to get the deal through this week. However, if there has to be an extension to allow time for an election to solve the parliamentary arithmetic, then so be it.
By the way, the idea that another referendum would solve anything is fantasy. Why would I as a Leaver respect this outcome if the last one is ignored?
On the other hand, if we leave, we can all move on. The pro-EU zealots will be free to campaign for re-entry and the rest of country can get on with making the new situation work. I think you may find your optimism dented by the process of a sovereign Parliament scrutinising the legislation. Much will happen this week which is up to Parliament to decide on - just as it should be
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Post by sheltonsalopian on Oct 21, 2019 10:51:36 GMT 1
See Daniel's colluding with foreign powers again to mess with the UK's affairs, why does this guy have such a raging hatred for the EU, seems to go further then just wanting to leave.
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 21, 2019 11:06:29 GMT 1
I hope the good people of Shrewsbury remember Daniel's underhand methods when the election comes and vote for someone with ethics.
If there is a veto on an extension then expect a vote to revoke Article 50 and start the whole process again, cheats like Daniel must never be allowed to prosper.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2019 11:47:55 GMT 1
Indeed parliament is sovereign. Problem with the referendum is that parliament voted to let the public decide and implement the result, when you do that you have to follow through. Is that somewhat akin to an uncontrolled enormous fart?
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Post by shrewsace on Oct 21, 2019 12:30:39 GMT 1
Is that somewhat akin to an uncontrolled enormous fart? I think it's fair to say we've 'followed through', it's the stinking s**tty mess we've been left with that's the problem.
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 21, 2019 13:01:25 GMT 1
We have been left with the mess, but the blame is down to one party: The Conservatives.
They: Had a referendum to try to resolve their own problems. Inflicted years of useless austerity on hard working families. Cut police numbers, causing the current problems. Brought in the legislation that now prevents Boris from calling an election without parliament voting for it. Ensured the rich got richer, with pay rate differences between shop floor workers and senior managers at eye watering levels. The list goes on..... Yet the Tories still maintain we must never let Corbyn take control?
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Post by martinshrew on Oct 21, 2019 13:28:34 GMT 1
We have been left with the mess, but the blame is down to one party: The Conservatives. They: Had a referendum to try to resolve their own problems. Inflicted years of useless austerity on hard working families. Cut police numbers, causing the current problems. Brought in the legislation that now prevents Boris from calling an election without parliament voting for it. Ensured the rich got richer, with pay rate differences between shop floor workers and senior managers at eye watering levels. The list goes on..... Yet the Tories still maintain we must never let Corbyn take control? Even if all that was true as you claim, the Tories still lead in the polls. It's a genuine shame there is no credible opposition.
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Post by staffordshrew on Oct 21, 2019 14:08:32 GMT 1
We have been left with the mess, but the blame is down to one party: The Conservatives. They: Had a referendum to try to resolve their own problems. Inflicted years of useless austerity on hard working families. Cut police numbers, causing the current problems. Brought in the legislation that now prevents Boris from calling an election without parliament voting for it. Ensured the rich got richer, with pay rate differences between shop floor workers and senior managers at eye watering levels. The list goes on..... Yet the Tories still maintain we must never let Corbyn take control? Even if all that was true as you claim, the Tories still lead in the polls. It's a genuine shame there is no credible opposition. I agree with you, it's been difficult for Corbyn to look like credible opposition, even though what he says sounds sensible to those that listen, having been a long term backbencher, not helped by the press bias obviously. The Liberals? Well, whenever we have an election, they will be the only ones thinking that they have a chance of being the next government.
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Post by venceremos on Oct 21, 2019 16:12:10 GMT 1
Parliament is sovereign. therefore, it cannot put into place legislation that binds a future government i.e. everything can be amended, repealed or replaced. So as far as the "obligation" to implement any legislation goes, it's irrelevant whether an MP did or didn't say they'd respect it. As you admit yourself, it was advisory, as the very concept of a binding referendum undermines the concept of a soverign parliament, something you lot are a bit keen on, i've heard Indeed parliament is sovereign. Problem with the referendum is that parliament voted to let the public decide and implement the result, when you do that you have to follow through. Parliament hasn't hence the people vs parliament situation. When did Parliament vote to "let the public decide and implement the result"?
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Post by Mortgagehound on Oct 21, 2019 16:15:05 GMT 1
Mr Bercow doing his best to help Remain camp I note
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Post by salop27 on Oct 21, 2019 17:35:57 GMT 1
Indeed parliament is sovereign. Problem with the referendum is that parliament voted to let the public decide and implement the result, when you do that you have to follow through. Parliament hasn't hence the people vs parliament situation. When did Parliament vote to "let the public decide and implement the result"? European Union referendum act 2015 was passed by a large majority. By implement the result I mean that every politician said they'd abide by the result before the referendum place. If it came across that I meant parliament had also voted to implement the result I of course didn't mean that, as that would be untrue.
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Post by mattmw on Oct 21, 2019 17:54:22 GMT 1
Looks like the Withdrawl Bill will finally be published tonight, although the time frame does keep slipping. Couple of days to read 100 pages of technical process and then a vote on Thursday
Unfortunately the debate on the Queens speech - which was really really important last week - has been bumped again and still hasn’t been voted on. It’s almost as if there isn’t enough time to debate all these things
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Post by Exkeeper on Oct 21, 2019 17:57:06 GMT 1
Mr Bercow doing his best to help Remain camp I note The Speaker doing exactly what he should do - listen, consider and make a judgement, whilst adhering to the rule book. The idiot PM is the one trying to bend the rules......again. What was that expression we kept hearing a few years back? Oh yes - “you lost, get over it”.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2019 18:27:15 GMT 1
Mr Bercow doing his best to help Remain camp I note You are Sir Bernard Jenkin and I claim my prize . 😊👍
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2019 18:51:32 GMT 1
Mr Bercow doing his best to help Remain camp I note You are Sir Bernard Jenkin and I claim my prize . 😊👍 He was truly put in his place
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Post by tvor on Oct 21, 2019 19:34:38 GMT 1
We now have a deal and one that takes us out of the Customers Union and Single Market – but which will give us free trade with the EU and allow us to make similar deals with other countries. Hurrah!
The chances of a trade deal with the EU being negotiated by December 2020 are very slim at best, in reality the negotiations need to be finished well ahead of that date. This deal is a trap door to a no deal Brexit in 2020, that's why the hard right Tories are now suddenly supporting it.
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Post by tvor on Oct 21, 2019 20:35:06 GMT 1
www.thearticle.com/the-hypocrisy-of-the-dup-is-beyond-staggering" The DUP wants alignment with the rest of the UK when it comes to Brexit. This is an understandable, but staggeringly difficult, demand with which to comply, given that there will be a land border between the EU and the UK on the island of Ireland once we leave. Yet, in other areas, notably on social issues, it insists on being able differentiate within the six counties.
When David Cameron and Nick Clegg’s coalition government brought in the landmark legislation to allow same-sex couples to marry, Northern Ireland was exempt. In 2015 there was actually a majority for same-sex marriage in the Stormont Assembly, but it was blocked by one party… I’ll give you three guesses.
Yes, the DUP filed what is called a petition of concern. This meant that the proposal needed a cross-community majority, and failed. Similar is true of abortion, which is not legal in Northern Ireland, unlike the rest of the UK.
The Stormont Assembly has not sat for nearly three years. However, the DUP has now magically managed to get its act together, with 27 of its MLAs backing a call for it to return. The reason? If it is not sitting by 31 October, same-sex marriage and abortion will both become legal in Northern Ireland. That potential change follows extensive campaigning by, among others, Labour MP Stella Creasey.
It is worth pausing to fully take that in. The DUP, the biggest single party in the Stormont Assembly, could not motivate itself to bring the institution back together to deal with Brexit or the myriad other issues facing the people of Northern Ireland. But it can do so to stop those progressive law changes." www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50115449It looks like Northern Ireland will finally be aligned with Great Britain on laws regarding abortion and same sex marriage.
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Post by tvor on Oct 21, 2019 20:43:55 GMT 1
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Post by salop27 on Oct 21, 2019 20:45:39 GMT 1
We now have a deal and one that takes us out of the Customers Union and Single Market – but which will give us free trade with the EU and allow us to make similar deals with other countries. Hurrah!
The chances of a trade deal with the EU being negotiated by December 2020 are very slim at best, in reality the negotiations need to be finished well ahead of that date. This deal is a trap door to a no deal Brexit in 2020, that's why the hard right Tories are now suddenly supporting it. If that's the case why have the EU agreed the deal?
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Post by mattmw on Oct 21, 2019 20:49:00 GMT 1
Withdrawl Bill finally published - essential reading for everyone over the next few days.
Initial highlight is that the Bill effectively brings back the European Communities Act during the transission period meaning EU law has supremacy in the UK during the transission period. With no ability for the UK to influence EU Law. Wonder how that will go down with MP's - can see why Johnson is trying to push it through so quickly.
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Post by tvor on Oct 21, 2019 20:50:32 GMT 1
The chances of a trade deal with the EU being negotiated by December 2020 are very slim at best, in reality the negotiations need to be finished well ahead of that date. This deal is a trap door to a no deal Brexit in 2020, that's why the hard right Tories are now suddenly supporting it. If that's the case why have the EU agreed the deal? It needs both sides to agree a deal, the EU may think its possible and be willing to genuinely negotiate in good faith but I wouldn't trust this government to do likewise and not stall or drag it out until the clock runs down. They will see it as an opportunity to exit without a deal as so many of them would like to do. Why are the hard right now suddenly supporting this deal when they wouldn't support the previous deal with a longer deadline for completion of an EU trade deal. I think the deal will probably now pass but I very much fear this won't end at all well for British business in the long run.
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Post by mattmw on Oct 21, 2019 21:07:10 GMT 1
The chances of a trade deal with the EU being negotiated by December 2020 are very slim at best, in reality the negotiations need to be finished well ahead of that date. This deal is a trap door to a no deal Brexit in 2020, that's why the hard right Tories are now suddenly supporting it. If that's the case why have the EU agreed the deal? My guess is the EU anticipate a decline in the UK economy between now and December 2020 while the EU economy grows. Thus the EU will be in a much stronger negotiationg position over trade and feel that the decline in the UK economy will make a no deal brexit a no go for the UK. Its not the most subtle of approaches but probably an effective one.
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