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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 10:27:27 GMT 1
Another night of disruption at Calais.
BBC reporting that a man has been killed as at least 1,500 migrants tried to enter the Channel Tunnel in Calais on Tuesday night, French police have said.
The situation is clearly not going to go away and putting up new fences doesn't seem to be acting as any sort of deterrent.
Test of resolve of both the French and UK authorities, it will be interesting to see what happens next and how far the government is prepared to go to address this deepening human tragedy.
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Post by billynomates on Jul 29, 2015 11:13:35 GMT 1
Get a few radicalised Brits on soap boxes in Calais telling the masses what a terrible country we live in. There, that should solve the problem.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 29, 2015 11:18:38 GMT 1
I'm at a total loss as to why they simply don't start their new life in France to be honest.
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Post by billynomates on Jul 29, 2015 11:29:11 GMT 1
I'm at a total loss as to why they simply don't start their new life in France to be honest. Because France do not pay the benefits that this mad country of ours does. We are the promised land and everyone knows it.
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Post by kuffdam72 on Jul 29, 2015 11:32:41 GMT 1
Should class it as a attempted invasion, send in the snipers they will soon get the message!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 12:00:26 GMT 1
I'm at a total loss as to why they simply don't start their new life in France to be honest. Because France do not pay the benefits that this mad country of ours does. We are the promised land and everyone knows it. Unless you live here, in which case you just moan moan and f****n moan about it!
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Post by Uncle_Monkey on Jul 29, 2015 13:26:23 GMT 1
I'm at a total loss as to why they simply don't start their new life in France to be honest. The vast majority do - France has a lot more illegal immigrants than the UK. It's only a relatively small sub-set that turn up at Calais, usually wanting to get to the UK because they speak English or have contacts here. Not mentioned by you - but mentioned by others on here is the fallacy about benefits being better in the UK. A recent article on the BBC website compared and contrasted various factors between the UK and France, including benefits. They were much of a muchness.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 29, 2015 14:19:09 GMT 1
I'm at a total loss as to why they simply don't start their new life in France to be honest. The vast majority do - France has a lot more illegal immigrants than the UK. It's only a relatively small sub-set that turn up at Calais, usually wanting to get to the UK because they speak English or have contacts here. Not mentioned by you - but mentioned by others on here is the fallacy about benefits being better in the UK. A recent article on the BBC website compared and contrasted various factors between the UK and France, including benefits. They were much of a muchness. All very true I'm sure but I'm still at a total loss as to why they simply don't start their new life in France...
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Post by venceremos on Jul 29, 2015 15:51:54 GMT 1
I'm at a total loss as to why they simply don't start their new life in France to be honest. The vast majority do - France has a lot more illegal immigrants than the UK. It's only a relatively small sub-set that turn up at Calais, usually wanting to get to the UK because they speak English or have contacts here. Not mentioned by you - but mentioned by others on here is the fallacy about benefits being better in the UK. A recent article on the BBC website compared and contrasted various factors between the UK and France, including benefits. They were much of a muchness. You and your reasoned arguments! How can anyone be expected to have a good, ill informed whinge when people start talking sense?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 22:14:43 GMT 1
It's blindingly obvious. The migrants are totally p**sed off at being charged over the odds at Disney World . They'd rather come over here and take their chances at Alton Towers .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 17:59:14 GMT 1
I'm at a total loss as to why they simply don't start their new life in France to be honest. Because most of "them" can speak English to some degree - many of "these" people come from countries in the middle east and africa that the UK at some point held sway over.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 30, 2015 18:31:03 GMT 1
I'm at a total loss as to why they simply don't start their new life in France to be honest. Because most of "them" can speak English to some degree - many of "these" people come from countries in the middle east and africa that the UK at some point held sway over. Firstly, I have to ask, why the quotes? I'm at a bit of a loss as to why that is needed. Anyhows, as someone has already mentioned above, plenty of immigrants have made their new home in France. No doubt whatsoever that these people could do the same. If not, why not? The language should be no barrier. They can learn a new language. If they were in some horrible place under threat and genuinely in danger then I could fully understand why they would risk life and injury to get out of there and reach the UK. But they're not. They're in France. As safe as place as the UK. I think this is why many people simply have no time or sympathy because they are in France and people can't understand why you would risk life and limb and cause so much disruption to move from there to the UK. They are safe in France. Why risk your life now? That is what I simply do not understand. I simply do not understand what additional 'rewards' you would get in the UK compared to France that are worth risking your life for...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 20:16:38 GMT 1
The far right has a big following in France and political clout in some regions.
Maybe that's the reason.
But then again there's Germany,Italy, Belgium and the Netherlands.
Either way these are pretty desperate people who have gone through a lot to get this far.
You have to admire their courage and determination.
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Post by mattmw on Jul 30, 2015 21:12:54 GMT 1
I don't quite understand if the people at the port are legal migrants in France, or illegal immigrants in France
If its the former then there is good reason to question why they are trying to come to the UK as they will have access to the French social and government support systems and the opportunity to work in France
Equally if they are illegal immigrants I can't see why the French authorities aren't arresting them and looking to deport them. From the tv pictures its seems they are fairly easy to spot
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Jul 30, 2015 22:45:18 GMT 1
Standing by and 'admiring their courage and determination' is part of the reason many of these people lose their lives trying to get to mainland Europe or the UK.
Our limp wristed attitude to immigration only offers incentives for people to risk life and limb coming to UK on the off chance the authorities take pity on them and they'll be granted asylum .
Unfortunately it's one of those instances where you have to be firm to be fair.
Saw a story on the news yesterday about a Sikh Afghan father who suffocated in the back of a truck surrounded by his family trying to get to the UK. These are the people that should be granted asylum in this country. As much as I don't subscribe to the leftist 'we owe it to them because of what happened 400 years ago' surely we have a duty to look after genuine refugees of war and offer support to those who given the opportunity will repay their gratitude and fit in to our society.
Not the Pakistanis and North Africans who make up the bulk of immigration applications and show little interest in adapting to our way of life. It makes you wonder why the wealthy gulf states aren't quite as accommodating to their Muslim brothers.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2015 7:47:06 GMT 1
Yet another night of disruption in Calais.
There are lots of emergency meetings and rhetoric but little else is being done to urgently address the issue. There are now 6000 lorries stacked on the motorway, Kent is turning into one large lorry park.
Time this government and the PM showed some decisive action.
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Post by sussexshrew on Jul 31, 2015 11:43:15 GMT 1
This is one which will polarise viewpoints and bring good arguments and counter arguments from both sides.
Some of those European countries like France, Italy and Greece are not happy that Britain refuses to share any of the burden of the fallout from the Middle East and North African flashpoints, while they are giving refuge to tens of thousands. Especially as Britain is financially much stronger than them.
The humanity showed by the Italian Navy and Aid agencies has been amazing; I am almost moved enough to forgive them for a few World and Euro cup defeats.
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Post by venceremos on Jul 31, 2015 12:12:53 GMT 1
As much as I don't subscribe to the leftist 'we owe it to them because of what happened 400 years ago' surely we have a duty to look after genuine refugees of war and offer support to those who given the opportunity will repay their gratitude and fit in to our society. Really? I was sure you must be feeling the burden of our imperial past. Bit surprised you date it 400 years ago though. Don't let on to the SNP that you believe a Scottish king (James I) was responsible for the empire. Seriously, I do agree that we (and all countries) have a moral duty to take in those escaping persecution, war and natural disaster. Refugees aren't permanently needy people. They want to reassert their independence as much as the rest of us and the vast majority will make a positive contribution to whichever country they end up in. Many will move on or return to their country of origin if things improve. Economic migrants aren't refugees of course but there's a lot of hypocrisy around this subject. Why are only poor people viewed as economic migrants? Why not those relatively affluent people who emigrate to improve their finances? There's certainly a racial aspect to it but of course there are genuine concerns that go beyond race. I don't believe there are any easy "get tough" solutions. At best they'll only work in the short term. In a vastly unequal, global economy there will always be economic migrants. Better solutions need to be found but dehumanising people with language such as Cameron used ("swarm") is disgusting and will only make things worse.
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Post by davycrockett on Jul 31, 2015 12:45:54 GMT 1
We do have a duty to look after and protect and care for genuine refugee's but this isn't possible at any channel crossing as the 'refugee's' are already in a safe country where they must apply for refugee status. We don't have a border with any unsafe country so the only refugee's that can claim assylum in this country are those who travel by air or sea where the departure point of their transport was in an unsafe country - FACT... So all so called refugee's are economic even if they'd qualify IF they claimed asylum in 'the first safe country' they arrive in.....
I can't believe that with the terrorist threat level having just been raised from 'substancial' to 'severe' in this country 'migrants' who could just as easily be 'IS Terrorists' are managing to avoid British border control.... No one should be able to climb over or under a fence in France to gain entry to a off limits area without immediate arrest by the French and if they're not prepared to do that and instead simply release them then we should deffinately set up a robust 'border' within France and stop messing about with these criminals!
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giraffe
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Post by giraffe on Jul 31, 2015 14:01:30 GMT 1
I'm at a total loss as to why they simply don't start their new life in France to be honest. Because France do not pay the benefits that this mad country of ours does. We are the promised land and everyone knows it. Illegal immigrants can't claim benefits. You are aware of that, aren't you?
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Jul 31, 2015 14:22:39 GMT 1
As much as I don't subscribe to the leftist 'we owe it to them because of what happened 400 years ago' surely we have a duty to look after genuine refugees of war and offer support to those who given the opportunity will repay their gratitude and fit in to our society. Really? I was sure you must be feeling the burden of our imperial past. Bit surprised you date it 400 years ago though. Don't let on to the SNP that you believe a Scottish king (James I) was responsible for the empire. Seriously, I do agree that we (and all countries) have a moral duty to take in those escaping persecution, war and natural disaster. Refugees aren't permanently needy people. They want to reassert their independence as much as the rest of us and the vast majority will make a positive contribution to whichever country they end up in. Many will move on or return to their country of origin if things improve. Economic migrants aren't refugees of course but there's a lot of hypocrisy around this subject. Why are only poor people viewed as economic migrants? Why not those relatively affluent people who emigrate to improve their finances? There's certainly a racial aspect to it but of course there are genuine concerns that go beyond race. I don't believe there are any easy "get tough" solutions. At best they'll only work in the short term. In a vastly unequal, global economy there will always be economic migrants. Better solutions need to be found but dehumanising people with language such as Cameron used ("swarm") is disgusting and will only make things worse. I was merely picking a number out of the sky Obviously when it comes to Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya there is a moral argument that it was our intervention that caused many thousands of people to be homeless and seeing as those places have fallen into the hands of terrorists since, a duty to look after them. But many of the people who are set up at camps at Calais trying to pass through to the UK are stateless either through choice or through circumstance, it is therefore impossible to 'send them back home' or know the real reason why they came to be seeking asylum in Europe. And with the terror threat as it is at the moment and a number of religious fanatics among the many thousands waiting to cross the border, I'd rather it was a chance we didn't take.
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Post by Nath on Jul 31, 2015 15:27:11 GMT 1
The government needs to work with France more closely on this issue. Unfortunately our media portrays the homeless and vulnerable as a bunch of greedy, selfish humans.
I personally don't believe in Borders and believe we are in no position to tell another human where they can or can't go. We, along with many more European states are destroying the economies of African and middle eastern countries so we must take responsibility. We, along with the USA have unsettled an entire region of the world through bloodshed and have turned our backs on millions of refugees.
It's not a case Leicester of feeling guilty about events that place four hundred years ago. Your political dismissal is so narrow-minded and prevents you from forming credible arguments. You often trivialise and patronise genuinely acceptable view points in an attempt to look intelligent, which I am sure you are.
I think this is a case that requires empathy which our current establishment lacks. We cannot allow people to exist in a state of homelessness and in a situation where they risk their own lives. The majority of immigrants do not come here to claim a house and benefits. They follow a tough decision so that they can provide for their families - something that is admirable and totally logical.
Cameron and Osborne lack integrity and decency and I cannot see this situation in Calais changing anytime soon.
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Post by mattmw on Jul 31, 2015 15:31:44 GMT 1
We do have a duty to look after and protect and care for genuine refugee's but this isn't possible at any channel crossing as the 'refugee's' are already in a safe country where they must apply for refugee status. We don't have a border with any unsafe country so the only refugee's that can claim assylum in this country are those who travel by air or sea where the departure point of their transport was in an unsafe country - FACT... So all so called refugee's are economic even if they'd qualify IF they claimed asylum in 'the first safe country' they arrive in..... I can't believe that with the terrorist threat level having just been raised from 'substancial' to 'severe' in this country 'migrants' who could just as easily be 'IS Terrorists' are managing to avoid British border control.... No one should be able to climb over or under a fence in France to gain entry to a off limits area without immediate arrest by the French and if they're not prepared to do that and instead simply release them then we should deffinately set up a robust 'border' within France and stop messing about with these criminals! I think part of the problem is who meets the cost of that border From what I've read the Italians, Germans and French - whose countries most of the migrants come through - have suggested all European countries should fund a range of boarder controls across Europe to tackle the issue, but so far Britain has only contributed a small amount compared to other countries In the light of the security risk involved I'm not quite sure why the UK isn't getting more involved with the French authorities to sort the problem out. Aside from the security issue it also appears to be costing trade and industry in the UK loads through lorries and freight not being able to move through the ports
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Post by venceremos on Jul 31, 2015 15:33:33 GMT 1
We do have a duty to look after and protect and care for genuine refugee's but this isn't possible at any channel crossing as the 'refugee's' are already in a safe country where they must apply for refugee status. We don't have a border with any unsafe country so the only refugee's that can claim assylum in this country are those who travel by air or sea where the departure point of their transport was in an unsafe country - FACT... So all so called refugee's are economic even if they'd qualify IF they claimed asylum in 'the first safe country' they arrive in..... I can't believe that with the terrorist threat level having just been raised from 'substancial' to 'severe' in this country 'migrants' who could just as easily be 'IS Terrorists' are managing to avoid British border control.... No one should be able to climb over or under a fence in France to gain entry to a off limits area without immediate arrest by the French and if they're not prepared to do that and instead simply release them then we should deffinately set up a robust 'border' within France and stop messing about with these criminals! Shouting "FACT" doesn't make what you say a fact. And what you claim to be a fact isn't a fact at all. A person can claim asylum in any country, it doesn't have to be the first "safe" country in which they arrive. How are they criminals? People entering a country illegally cease to be "illegal" if they claim asylum. That's not unique to the UK, it's enshrined in international law and a government must provide protection while a claim is being processed. If an asylum claim is approved, the person becomes a refugee for five years initially. If it's still unsafe for them to return to their home country, they can then apply for leave to remain in the UK. That's the legal process. Asylum seekers aren't allowed to work for at least a year and have no choice in where they live. It's not a gravy train, it's a last resort for people fleeing persecution. How would you suggest we set up a robust UK border within France? Maybe the French should set up a robust border in Kent? Be realistic, we haven't had territorial rights in France for the last few centuries. You think the situation's bad now? You think the French aren't doing enough? Just think how much worse it would be if they gave up any defence of the tunnel and simply let everyone pass through, so that it became a problem on our side of the Channel. They could more or less wash their hands of the problem if they did that. We have to work with France to try to resolve this.
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Post by davycrockett on Jul 31, 2015 16:00:44 GMT 1
We do have a duty to look after and protect and care for genuine refugee's but this isn't possible at any channel crossing as the 'refugee's' are already in a safe country where they must apply for refugee status. We don't have a border with any unsafe country so the only refugee's that can claim assylum in this country are those who travel by air or sea where the departure point of their transport was in an unsafe country - FACT... So all so called refugee's are economic even if they'd qualify IF they claimed asylum in 'the first safe country' they arrive in..... I can't believe that with the terrorist threat level having just been raised from 'substancial' to 'severe' in this country 'migrants' who could just as easily be 'IS Terrorists' are managing to avoid British border control.... No one should be able to climb over or under a fence in France to gain entry to a off limits area without immediate arrest by the French and if they're not prepared to do that and instead simply release them then we should deffinately set up a robust 'border' within France and stop messing about with these criminals! Shouting "FACT" doesn't make what you say a fact. And what you claim to be a fact isn't a fact at all. A person can claim asylum in any country, it doesn't have to be the first "safe" country in which they arrive. How are they criminals? People entering a country illegally cease to be "illegal" if they claim asylum. That's not unique to the UK, it's enshrined in international law and a government must provide protection while a claim is being processed. If an asylum claim is approved, the person becomes a refugee for five years initially. If it's still unsafe for them to return to their home country, they can then apply for leave to remain in the UK. That's the legal process. Asylum seekers aren't allowed to work for at least a year and have no choice in where they live. It's not a gravy train, it's a last resort for people fleeing persecution. How would you suggest we set up a robust UK border within France? Maybe the French should set up a robust border in Kent? Be realistic, we haven't had territorial rights in France for the last few centuries. You think the situation's bad now? You think the French aren't doing enough? Just think how much worse it would be if they gave up any defence of the tunnel and simply let everyone pass through, so that it became a problem on our side of the Channel. They could more or less wash their hands of the problem if they did that. We have to work with France to try to resolve this.
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Post by davycrockett on Jul 31, 2015 16:09:44 GMT 1
Shouting "FACT" doesn't make what you say a fact. And what you claim to be a fact isn't a fact at all. A person can claim asylum in any country, it doesn't have to be the first "safe" country in which they arrive. How are they criminals? People entering a country illegally cease to be "illegal" if they claim asylum. That's not unique to the UK, it's enshrined in international law and a government must provide protection while a claim is being processed. If an asylum claim is approved, the person becomes a refugee for five years initially. If it's still unsafe for them to return to their home country, they can then apply for leave to remain in the UK. That's the legal process. Asylum seekers aren't allowed to work for at least a year and have no choice in where they live. It's not a gravy train, it's a last resort for people fleeing persecution. How would you suggest we set up a robust UK border within France? Maybe the French should set up a robust border in Kent? Be realistic, we haven't had territorial rights in France for the last few centuries. You think the situation's bad now? You think the French aren't doing enough? Just think how much worse it would be if they gave up any defence of the tunnel and simply let everyone pass through, so that it became a problem on our side of the Channel. They could more or less wash their hands of the problem if they did that. We have to work with France to try to resolve this. Your right they can claim assylum BUT (whoops i shouted, no just stressing) we can legally remove them to a third country if the failed to claim asylum there 'The short answer is that anyone is allowed to claim asylum anywhere, but states may lawfully remove asylum seekers to safe third countries on the grounds that they could have claimed asylum there. '
Lets say they arrived in Italy, they then spend time travelling through 2 safe countries to reach the UK Why, through personal choice not to find a safe country... they're already in one...Oh and we do have UK border controls in French ferry ports.
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Jul 31, 2015 17:35:47 GMT 1
I just imagine the French version of the Daily Mail writing that as all these people want to go to England, why should we stop them?
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Post by davycrockett on Jul 31, 2015 18:20:31 GMT 1
I just imagine the French version of the Daily Mail writing that as all these people want to go to England, why should we stop them? Pretty much what they said in WW2
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2015 19:46:38 GMT 1
Standing by and 'admiring their courage and determination' is part of the reason many of these people lose their lives trying to get to mainland Europe or the UK. Our limp wristed attitude to immigration only offers incentives for people to risk life and limb coming to UK on the off chance the authorities take pity on them and they'll be granted asylum . Unfortunately it's one of those instances where you have to be firm to be fair. Saw a story on the news yesterday about a Sikh Afghan father who suffocated in the back of a truck surrounded by his family trying to get to the UK. These are the people that should be granted asylum in this country. As much as I don't subscribe to the leftist 'we owe it to them because of what happened 400 years ago' surely we have a duty to look after genuine refugees of war and offer support to those who given the opportunity will repay their gratitude and fit in to our society. Not the Pakistanis and North Africans who make up the bulk of immigration applications and show little interest in adapting to our way of life. It makes you wonder why the wealthy gulf states aren't quite as accommodating to their Muslim brothers. There are many different levels of complexity in this story. Admiring the courage and determination of people who are prepared to take risks for a supposed better life is just one level. A human level if you like. Anyone with an ounce of self awareness would realise this. Or not.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2015 21:27:02 GMT 1
Standing by and 'admiring their courage and determination' is part of the reason many of these people lose their lives trying to get to mainland Europe or the UK. Our limp wristed attitude to immigration only offers incentives for people to risk life and limb coming to UK on the off chance the authorities take pity on them and they'll be granted asylum . Unfortunately it's one of those instances where you have to be firm to be fair. Saw a story on the news yesterday about a Sikh Afghan father who suffocated in the back of a truck surrounded by his family trying to get to the UK. These are the people that should be granted asylum in this country. As much as I don't subscribe to the leftist 'we owe it to them because of what happened 400 years ago' surely we have a duty to look after genuine refugees of war and offer support to those who given the opportunity will repay their gratitude and fit in to our society. Not the Pakistanis and North Africans who make up the bulk of immigration applications and show little interest in adapting to our way of life. It makes you wonder why the wealthy gulf states aren't quite as accommodating to their Muslim brothers. There are many different levels of complexity in this story. Admiring the courage and determination of people who are prepared to take risks for a supposed better life is just one level. A human level if you like. Anyone with an ounce of self awareness would realise this. Or not. They are risking their own lives and those of british citizens, at Calais as well as having a financial impact on hauliers and at the cost of the British tax payer in their quest to cross the border of one safe country into another!
That is not acceptable and certainly not to be admired!
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