bradley
Midland League Division Two
Posts: 188
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Post by bradley on Sept 7, 2011 16:50:24 GMT 1
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2011 16:56:18 GMT 1
If I was put on a shortlist for a managerial vacancy I would like to think it was down to my skills as a manager rather than the colour of my skin.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2011 17:58:49 GMT 1
Shameful.
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Post by rglenshrew on Sept 7, 2011 18:27:07 GMT 1
Bit like the "poor woman representation" argument in politics. Maybe woman are just s**te at it?
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Post by venceremos on Sept 7, 2011 18:38:04 GMT 1
Bad idea - racism in football that is, not a bit of positive discrimination to open things up.
Did anyone actually read the article?
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Post by mattmw on Sept 7, 2011 18:44:41 GMT 1
The article suggests the PFA are looking at a number of options to get more black players into coaching and management when they retire, the automatic interview option is just one off the options they are looking at
Football management appointments have always been a bit of a mystery. It's not like it's based on qualifications and a well written application form, more on who you know and who recommends you, but seeing as black players have been part of the game for 25 plus years it is strange more aren't now in management jobs
Black players must make up a significant percentage of the PFA membership so if there is something restricting their employability post playing career it is something the PFA should investigate and try to tackle
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Post by venceremos on Sept 7, 2011 19:02:18 GMT 1
If I was put on a shortlist for a managerial vacancy I would like to think it was down to my skills as a manager rather than the colour of my skin. Fine, if you make the shortlist. What if you're suitably qualified, never make the shortlists and you're not white? You might begin to wonder. The point about positive discrimination that always seems to be missed is that it's not meant to give anyone an unfair advantage. It exists to correct an unfair advantage given to others on the basis of prejudice, intentional or otherwise. The proportion of black pro footballers is way higher than the proportion of black managers and coaches. Why might that be?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2011 19:38:52 GMT 1
Don't get this and never really have got the positive discrimination idea.
What is the point of making clubs put a black player on the short list if those on the interview panel are racist and won't give a black candidate the job anyway. If the panel arnt racist then they would put a black person on the short list anyway.
Maybe I'm being a little naive but does racism really exist to this extent in this day and age or are the fa trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
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Post by venceremos on Sept 7, 2011 19:50:10 GMT 1
Don't get this and never really have got the positive discrimination idea. What is the point of making clubs put a black player on the short list if those on the interview panel are racist and won't give a black candidate the job anyway. If the panel arnt racist then they would put a black person on the short list anyway. Maybe I'm being a little naive but does racism really exist to this extent in this day and age or are the fa trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Racism's not the overt issue it was in the days of bananas being thrown etc (at least in this country) but that doesn't mean there isn't prejudice still affecting the sport. Maybe there's another very good reason why there are so few black managers and coaches - but what might that be if it's not racism? Would it make a difference? Yes, in time. Maybe they wouldn't give the black candidate a job because of in-built prejudice, but sooner or later that's going to show up and embarrass the club. There aren't many all white teams now, are there? Handled correctly, this could cease to be an issue in a few years' time. If it's ignored and everyone just thinks it's an odd quirk, it'll be a hidden issue that won't go away and will actually get worse as more black ex-players try to get into management.
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Post by Mike on Sept 7, 2011 20:19:31 GMT 1
Surely if you are looking to positvely discriminate in favour of non-whites then you would have to discriminate with women, the disabled, homosexual, transgender also.
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Sept 7, 2011 20:21:16 GMT 1
I'll buy into it as soon as there's a similar rule in the NBA as regards to getting more white people involved. Oh wait, that'll never happen. Its genetics why black people are taller than whites, its racism when whites are better than blacks.
Bore off with your positive racism, it has no place anywhere.
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Post by WindsorShrew on Sept 7, 2011 20:24:00 GMT 1
Surely if you are looking to positvely discriminate in favour of non-whites then you would have to discriminate with women, the disabled, homosexual, transgender also. No fliping chance Matron would make a crud manager !
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Post by mattmw on Sept 7, 2011 20:26:01 GMT 1
Don't get this and never really have got the positive discrimination idea. What is the point of making clubs put a black player on the short list if those on the interview panel are racist and won't give a black candidate the job anyway. If the panel arnt racist then they would put a black person on the short list anyway. Maybe I'm being a little naive but does racism really exist to this extent in this day and age or are the fa trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Don't Gordon Taylor's quotes in the article answer these questions though? The PFA chief executive, Gordon Taylor, feels it is an avenue that has to be explored. "In football terms, we are the most cosmopolitan country in the world," said Taylor. "There is no distinction between colour, creed, nationality or background. "However, the PFA spends a lot of money training players for the future and understandably, one of the most obvious areas of interest is coaching and management. For some reason the number of black people who actually get a chance in this area is very small." "All we are asking for is an interview," he said. "But the more times people attend interviews, the greater the likelihood of them eventually getting a job. "This has to be a good thing because it broadens the panel of potential managers and coaches clubs are selecting from and opens up the possibility of greater experience. That should be what every club is looking for anyway." Think it's also worth looking at the wider picture if how players are supported to become managers and coaches once they retire. Not too many young English managers are coming through in the Premier League, so perhaps the training and support the PFA give across the board needs looking at
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Post by WindsorShrew on Sept 7, 2011 20:28:51 GMT 1
On a serious note maybe they will allow an Englishman to apply for the next managers job for In-gur-lund
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Post by mattmw on Sept 7, 2011 20:32:51 GMT 1
Surely if you are looking to positvely discriminate in favour of non-whites then you would have to discriminate with women, the disabled, homosexual, transgender also. I'm not aware if many women, disabled or transgenger players in the premier league - so you wouldnt really expect to see them go into football management. The point the PFA are making is that most managers and coaches are ex players, and black players now make up a significant proportion of current players. The fact that the percentage of managers isn't as high suggests there might be reasons why black players aren't going onto be managers. The lack of openly gay footballs or managers is another of the issues which football has yet to tackle though
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2011 20:39:01 GMT 1
If it's ignored and everyone just thinks it's an odd quirk, it'll be a hidden issue that won't go away and will actually get worse as more black ex-players try to get into management. The postings of Venceremos continue to plunge down in quality. Firstly, why constantly contrast the fortunes of black players to their white counterparts? Surely, as total equals, this distinction isn’t needed? When a black player takes to the field, I prefer to focus on their playing attributes and am not mesmerised by the colour of their skin. I would suggest that – through distinguishing between black people and white people – you are inadvertently expressing the mindset of a genuine racist. Secondly, why assume that there is an avalanche of black footballers desperate to wheedle their way into management? Perhaps it is sheer coincidence? Maybe management is becoming an increasingly unappealing prospect for ex-footballers? A classic liberal do-gooder; desperate to take offence on the behalf of others and remedy an ‘issue’ which does not really exist. I agree with most of what you are saying, but the last paragraph, a bit over the top don't you think. Just someone, like you, putting forward a point of view. I don,t agree with "positive" discrimination. In many areas it breeds more resentment than achieving an equal balance. Have the PFA actually sat down and asked black ex- players, or those nearing retirement, if they are contemplating coaching positions, and if they are looking for management positions. Alternatively, if a black player got a job as manager, or an interview for that position, would he feel it was because of the new directive, or because he deserved it on merit. Would he see himself, or feel others see him, as the "token".
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Post by africanshrew on Sept 7, 2011 21:26:47 GMT 1
Given the number of top black players vs the number of black coaches and managers there does seem to be an issue. However, personally I don't think this is the way to handle it.
(I love the way some people use 'liberal' as an insult... 'you do-gooders moving into our area, taking our jobs and placing value of individual freedoms, grrr'...)
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Post by rglenshrew on Sept 7, 2011 23:10:59 GMT 1
I'll buy into it as soon as there's a similar rule in the NBA as regards to getting more white people involved. Oh wait, that'll never happen. Its genetics why black people are taller than whites, its racism when whites are better than blacks.
Bore off with your positive racism, it has no place anywhere. And why they are very good at running too. It's all genetic.
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Post by Pilch on Sept 8, 2011 1:35:50 GMT 1
bit like when coronation street were criticised for not having enough black actors in the show so they promptly introduced a black burglar i suppose this means john barnes and carlton palmer will be back in work by christmas
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Sept 8, 2011 2:07:34 GMT 1
Carlton Palmer, John Barnes, Keith Curle and Leroy Rosenior, all black and have all failed miserably as football managers in the English leagues. I fear that this so-called 'Rooney rule' or whatever it is they are trying to bring in from the U.S will not necessarily promote the opportunity of football coaching/managing as an option for black footballers coming to the end of their playing career, but more an obligation that we will see the same names as mentioned above touted for every job that becomes available until someone eventually wilts to the 'positive discrimination' spiel. I can't believe that in 2011 we are having this conversation about racism in football as though it is still rife in the game and that England is creating some kind of apartheid in terms of lack of opportunities for certain ethnic groups. Can we argue that there are too many Scottish managers in the Premier League? Is there an argument that English managers are missing out on the big jobs because they aren't given the same opportunities foreign managers are in the premier league? This very debate makes my skin crawl and as rglenshrew pointed out before, it wreaks of the same dilusional ideology that women are somehow overlooked in politics and there aren't enough women represented. While the latter part of that statement is correct, the liberal do-gooders who push forward these statistics and pressure for 'positive discrimination' fail to see that a lot of women will naturally want to have children and bring up families as tradition has dictated for the last god knows how many years. Thus the willingness to become a Member of Parliament is lost on a lot of people. I remember Anne Widdecombe speaking out against these so-called 'reforms' for more women being represented in parliament because of the very reasons I mentioned above. I do hope a black manager will similarly confirm that there are no underlying racist motives that keep them from becoming managers, and it is purely a decision that they have taken not to become football managers as I believe/hope is the case. Speaking of Hope, Hope Powell anyone? I know she works in womens football but it still falls under the juristiction of the football Association. I'm almost convinced she got the job because of her merits and not because of her skin colour. I think the PFA are opening a massive can of worms with this.
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Post by venceremos on Sept 8, 2011 10:48:26 GMT 1
I'll buy into it as soon as there's a similar rule in the NBA as regards to getting more white people involved. Oh wait, that'll never happen. Its genetics why black people are taller than whites, its racism when whites are better than blacks. Bore off with your positive racism, it has no place anywhere. So whites are better than blacks at football - is that it? Interesting argument.
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Post by venceremos on Sept 8, 2011 11:16:42 GMT 1
If it's ignored and everyone just thinks it's an odd quirk, it'll be a hidden issue that won't go away and will actually get worse as more black ex-players try to get into management. The postings of Venceremos continue to plunge down in quality. Firstly, why constantly contrast the fortunes of black players to their white counterparts? Surely, as total equals, this distinction isn’t needed? When a black player takes to the field, I prefer to focus on their playing attributes and am not mesmerised by the colour of their skin. I would suggest that – through distinguishing between black people and white people – you are inadvertently expressing the mindset of a genuine racist. Secondly, why assume that there is an avalanche of black footballers desperate to wheedle their way into management? Perhaps it is sheer coincidence? Maybe management is becoming an increasingly unappealing prospect for ex-footballers? A classic liberal do-gooder; desperate to take offence on the behalf of others and remedy an ‘issue’ which does not really exist. A classic case of missing the point entirely. The discussion isn't about players, it's about managers and coaches. So your first point is irrelevant but nice try with the reverse racist trick; a classic from the Daily Mail school of non-thinking. "Liberal do-gooder" indeed - I hope your essays (you are a student aren't you?) are less cliched! Your second point is pure supposition. There doesn't seem to be much of a shortage of ex-players seeking coaching and management positions. I'm not assuming anyone's trying to "wheedle" (odd choice of word) into anything. What I'm saying is there's an obvious disparity between the proportion of black professional players and black professional coaches, which is what the PFA is recognising. That seems an odd coincidence. Your assumption that I'm offended by this issue is way off, by the way. It's only football and not a big deal at all. But I think it's a valid proposal by the PFA. Interesting to see some of the outraged reactions on here though. But still no-one has attempted to answer the question at the heart of it - why, when there are so many black players, are there so few black coaches? Please excuse any inadvertent racism there, Crippen, I don't want to offend your liberal sensitivities. Still, it's nice that you must have liked some of my earlier posts if they're now plunging in quality.
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Post by jonbond on Sept 8, 2011 11:21:32 GMT 1
The south africans brought in a quota system in their cricket , they had to have at least 2 non-whites in the side at all times, think they still have this rule. Funny how they didnt have the reverse in their all black footie side!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2011 13:06:27 GMT 1
Some may say Im naive but I really dont think theres a racism problem in football in terms of clubs/owners themeselves. Clubs want success and they are willing to achieve that at any rate, the employment of several high profile players/managers with convictions against their names are testatement to that. Therefore why should a persons skin colour make any difference?
Much is made of the fact there are only 2 black managers currently but are there any figures out there as to how many black men have applied for manager roles (and failed)? Everytime a manager vacancy comes up then lots of names are linked with the roles but the majority of them are white. Is it that black men arent applying or are there hundreds out there trying to get into management but failing?
From a personal perspective then Id agree with other people who have said it would be farcical to force clubs to put a certain amount of black managers on the shortlist or there has to be a certain amount of black managers in the league etc. Rather than trying to force clubs to take on black managers, maybe the PFA, FA or whoever should be trying to understand why there are so few black managers and then coming up with something, rather than trying to force something.
Yes of course it isnt right that someone doesnt get a job because of the colour of their skin, but then why would it be right that someone does get a job because of the colour of their skin.
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Sept 8, 2011 13:13:51 GMT 1
I'll buy into it as soon as there's a similar rule in the NBA as regards to getting more white people involved. Oh wait, that'll never happen. Its genetics why black people are taller than whites, its racism when whites are better than blacks. Bore off with your positive racism, it has no place anywhere. So whites are better than blacks at football - is that it? Interesting argument. 'Talk about missing the point entirely' . In terms of football management which is the topic is we are discussing, I think the facts speak for themselves. Name me the last black manager to win the World Cup, European Cup and Premier League.
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Post by rglenshrew on Sept 8, 2011 14:00:39 GMT 1
Would it be fair to say that most of the managers now in England are mostly ex players who've played in the English leagues in the 70's, 80's etc, when the amount of black players playing at that time was very small?
Most "just retired ex professionals" are hired due to their contacts and not managerial ability anyway.
Give it 10-15 years when this generation of players playing in the English leagues retire and want to try their hand at football management. You'll see plenty of good black players getting jobs as managers.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2011 14:42:43 GMT 1
A completely ill thought out and pointless exercise. I was in an organisation that decided that there was not enough applications from the Asian community, and therefore put measures in place to encourage and fast track more candidates from this ethnic group. The truth being, if you actually asked them the question, is that they saw the job as being beneath them, and would rather run their own businessess rather than being an employee. I,m not saying this is the case as far as football is concerned, but has the question "why" been asked, or is it a percieved injustice ? Personally, i would like to see those in positions of power within the National framework spend more time and effort towards combating racism in World football. I believe that, just recently, one of our national teams was subjected to racist comments/chants from fans of a European country. And who could forget the abuse our black players recieved while on international duty in Italy a few years back. I think the fine imposed by U.E.F.A. was something like £5,000. IF this continues, i would love to see the F.A. stand up to these morons, and withdraw our teams from any competition subject to racist abuse. Now that really would rock the world of football. A dream, will never happen.
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Post by siabod on Sept 8, 2011 16:11:01 GMT 1
IF this continues, i would love to see the F.A. stand up to these morons, and withdraw our teams from any competition subject to racist abuse. Now that really would rock the world of football. A dream, will never happen. Good point but I would prefer to see the teams from the offending countries excluded and getting the reduced financial benifits. In 35 years of retail management I employed only 3 black people this was not in any way prejudiced but we seldom got applications from black people. I also owned a hairdressing business and in 16 years never received an application for employment from a black person, my record in employing such a small number looks dubious but unless someone applies they cannot be considered. Anyone suggesting people have to be added to an interview list because of the colour of their skin (or in a previous similar case because of their sex) is insulting both to the people seeking employment and the possible employer.
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Sept 8, 2011 16:19:18 GMT 1
A completely ill thought out and pointless exercise. I was in an organisation that decided that there was not enough applications from the Asian community, and therefore put measures in place to encourage and fast track more candidates from this ethnic group. The truth being, if you actually asked them the question, is that they saw the job as being beneath them, and would rather run their own businessess rather than being an employee. I,m not saying this is the case as far as football is concerned, but has the question "why" been asked, or is it a percieved injustice ? Personally, i would like to see those in positions of power within the National framework spend more time and effort towards combating racism in World football. I believe that, just recently, one of our national teams was subjected to racist comments/chants from fans of a European country. And who could forget the abuse our black players recieved while on international duty in Italy a few years back. I think the fine imposed by U.E.F.A. was something like £5,000. IF this continues, i would love to see the F.A. stand up to these morons, and withdraw our teams from any competition subject to racist abuse. Now that really would rock the world of football. A dream, will never happen. Completely agree. As I noted earlier Britain is so far ahead of the rest of the developed world in terms of multi-culturalism and instead of spending time, money and effort looking for racist undertones that aren't there, the priority must be to stamp out racism from the world game as you say.
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Post by venceremos on Sept 8, 2011 18:12:52 GMT 1
So whites are better than blacks at football - is that it? Interesting argument. 'Talk about missing the point entirely' . In terms of football management which is the topic is we are discussing, I think the facts speak for themselves. Name me the last black manager to win the World Cup, European Cup and Premier League. Eh, what facts are they then? You said "it's racism when whites are better than blacks". What genetic advantage do you think whites have over blacks when it comes to football management? Is there one? You're ahead of the scientists if you've found it. If there are hardly any black managers in the game, there aren't going to be many successful black managers either are there? Name me the last black cabinet minister - yeah, they make hopeless politicians as well.
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