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Post by QuorndonShrew on Sept 8, 2011 18:34:11 GMT 1
'Talk about missing the point entirely' . In terms of football management which is the topic is we are discussing, I think the facts speak for themselves. Name me the last black manager to win the World Cup, European Cup and Premier League. Eh, what facts are they then? You said "it's racism when whites are better than blacks". What genetic advantage do you think whites have over blacks when it comes to football management? Is there one? You're ahead of the scientists if you've found it. If there are hardly any black managers in the game, there aren't going to be many successful black managers either are there? Name me the last black cabinet minister - yeah, they make hopeless politicians as well. The facts that no black manager has won any major silverware in the UK or European football could perhaps be a reason why black footballers are put off by the decision to go into management? Or there are simply better candidates for the job. There are no black cabinet ministers that I can think of, whats your point? There have been very high profile black members of previous adminisitrations in the US government and for whatever reason that hasn't beared fruit over here but that might have something to do with the university quotas and how white middle class dominated the top universities are. Rightly or wrongly there are no black football managers in the premier league. Rightly or wrongly only 30% of players in the NBA are white. What are the arguments for or against that quota? Because I don't here them and I merely suggested genetically black people have a broader build and are more likely to be of a height required to make a decent basketball player. If you could maybe voice your opinion rather than read peoples post and take them on a hike to Peru then you maybe could offer some light as to why these are cases and facts, which is what you asked for wasnt it?
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Post by Hippo on Sept 8, 2011 18:58:27 GMT 1
About two thirds of NBA coaches are white too. That's weird innit?
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Post by venceremos on Sept 8, 2011 19:11:08 GMT 1
I saw the post, I read the article, I expressed an opinion, a few people disagreed (some more excitedly than others). It's no big deal.
I made a sarcastic remark about black cabinet ministers to make a comparison with what I thought you were saying - clearly it missed its mark, forget that.
You seem to be saying that because black managers haven't won major trophies, that somehow proves a point (presumably that they don't make good managers but correct me if I've misunderstood). I'm saying, if there've hardly been any black managers, now or in the past, then of course they're not going to have won trophies. I thought it was obvious but that's the entire point of what the PFA (and others) are saying - the numbers of black coaches and managers are strangely low, when you consider how many black players there are (and have been).
Is your argument really that this is because blacks don't make good managers?
If your comparison is with NBA players, then I don't think it's relevant. There are genetic reasons why certain racial types suit the performance of certain sports. But we're not talking about football players, we're talking about football managers. And I'm not aware of any genetic reason why a white person should make a better coach or manager than a black person, in football or any other sport. Are you?
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Sept 8, 2011 19:33:03 GMT 1
My argument is that without having a successful black manager in the modern history of football, the attraction for a black player to then become a manager may not be as great. Why are there very few good British tennis players compared to equal sized countries around the world? Could it be perhaps that there has been very little success in recent years that there isn't an attraction there to lure young kids into the sport. The same could be said for black people in this instance. Until perhaps Paul Ince wins the premier league or the F.A Cup or something and we get over all the hysteria that the media creates when black people do something remotely momentous, the appeal isn't there. I could be wrong, I'm merely expressing an opinion. And why isnt the comparison to NBA relevant? The tallest man in the world is Ukranian and I'm presuming white, so maybe I don't buy the 'certain racial types suit the performance in certain sports'. Black people dominated the heavyweight division of boxing for decades but the two biggest names in the sport at the moment are ironically also from Ukraine and white. My original argument was that this positive discrimination seems to only work one way and I don't think it has a place in any environment. Yes I believe there should be more black managers in the football league but I don't think the issue should be mollycoddled or manufactured in any way to suit one racial type over another because these things just happen, its fact period the end. Why are there six glaswegian football managers in the premier league? They say perhaps its something in the water or being brought up in Glasgow makes you tough and adaptable to a certain way. We can apply that theory to any circumstance, so my question is why are there not as many high profile managers from London or Edinburgh or Manchester? Its how you perceive it. Perhaps white people adapt to management better than blacks? I have no scientific proof to back that up and it is merely one persons theory but who's to prove otherwise? Why can't we just accept things how they are , does there always have to be an explanation? Scientific or otherwise
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Post by venceremos on Sept 8, 2011 19:51:26 GMT 1
I accept that a black player might be discouraged from trying management because of the lack of successful precedents. But that's different from the tennis comparison you make. Kids (of whatever colour) have few British tennis stars to emulate (of whatever colour). The football management point is about colour - there are lots of successful football managers for a black player to emulate. It just happens that they're white because so few blacks have become managers. You may think that's through choice, I don't.
The NBA comparison isn't relevant because you were talking about players, the football case is about managers. But since we've digressed, I acknowledge there are top level black and white basketball players and boxers. The line ups of world championship sprinting and swimming events suggest that racial genetics do play a part in sporting performance however.
I don't know what "positive discrimination seems to work only one way" means. Of course it does, that's why it's called that. Applied sensibly (and where it's needed, which I know isn't everywhere) it's not about giving anyone an unfair advantage. It's about correcting an unfair advantage that other people have.
It may sometimes seem otherwise but Glaswegian is not a racial type, so that point isn't relevant either.
"Why can't we just accept there are more white managers" (as in - almost all of them are white)? Well we can and we do. But what's so wrong with thinking maybe that should change and what's the best way to make that happen?
I'll pass over the idea that white people might adapt to management better than blacks. If you really believe that, I think our discussion has ended.
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Sept 8, 2011 20:22:06 GMT 1
I accept that a black player might be discouraged from trying management because of the lack of successful precedents. But that's different from the tennis comparison you make. Kids (of whatever colour) have few British tennis stars to emulate (of whatever colour). The football management point is about colour - there are lots of successful football managers for a black player to emulate. It just happens that they're white because so few blacks have become managers. You may think that's through choice, I don't. I believe it is through choice, I find it hard to accept that in 2011 racism is rife in the game at any level, let alone in the PFA or by chairman/owners of football league clubs. If you could perhaps give me names of prospective black managers who have completed their UEFA Pro Licence then I'd be happy to accept your point of view. The NBA comparison isn't relevant because you were talking about players, the football case is about managers. But since we've digressed, I acknowledge there are top level black and white basketball players and boxers. The line ups of world championship sprinting and swimming events suggest that racial genetics do play a part in sporting performance however. So why as a previous poster mentioned, are there far more black players in the NBA yet the majority of coaches are white?. I'm not sure if the same rule applies in America in terms of coaches being ex players or not but again I believe this adheres to the theory that more white people decide to go in to management then black people. It may sometimes seem otherwise but Glaswegian is not a racial type, so that point isn't relevant either. Why isn't it relevant? Because its not a race issue? I think thats a narrow-minded statement to make personally. Surely in terms of the F.A a main priority should be to produce the highest quality of English footballers and managers alike so the national team can compete on the international stage? Rather than trying to unearth underlying racist motives that are probably not even there? I'll pass over the idea that white people might adapt to management better than blacks. If you really believe that, I think our discussion has ended. I think its certaintly a point of thought that can be looked into deeper. If you can distinguish between races in terms of physical ability than surely the same can apply with mental ability and managerial skills in interpersonal and conceptual forms? Is it too much of an outlandish method of thought that we can perhaps draw a conclusion that white people might be better in football management without toeing the line of racism?
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Post by Shrewed on Sept 8, 2011 20:34:47 GMT 1
Gebbashrew77, I suspect that Gordon Taylor and the PFA have a far better understanding of football today than you and many other posters on the thread have. The members of the Professional Footballers Association obviously feel there is racism in English football. Although I don't agree that with this proposal I actually believe professional footballers understand the situation better than you do.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2011 20:41:12 GMT 1
Gebbashrew77, I suspect that Gordon Taylor and the PFA have a far better understanding of football today than you and many other posters on the thread have. The members of the Professional footballers Association obviously feel there is racism in English football. Although I don't agree that with this proposal I actually believe professional footballers understand the situation better than you do. Ed, sure if try hard enough, you could possibly be more patronising!!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2011 20:41:34 GMT 1
Gebbashrew77, I suspect that Gordon Taylor and the PFA have a far better understanding of football today than you I think that's a dangerous assumption to make and on the basis of the available evidence isn't necessarily the case
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Post by mattmw on Sept 8, 2011 20:42:17 GMT 1
Is it too much of an outlandish method of thought that we can perhaps draw a conclusion that white people might be better in football management without toeing the line of racism? Oxford English Dictionary of racism is "the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race , especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races"
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Sept 8, 2011 20:44:56 GMT 1
So the lack of success with the international team, the lack of decent players coming through the ranks, the lack of a winter break that puts us far behind the rest of Europe in terms of fitness in European competitions, the continued scrutiny by the F.A of FIFA and the need to rid the world game of corruption, the continued pressure on UEFA and FIFA to act on racism which is still rife in the game on both the European and World scene as we found out last weekend in Bulgaria. None of these 'problems' you would prioritise over something that may or may not exist in the English game? And I'm not a professional footballer, but then again I'm in the majority of people on this forum that arent. So whats your point? Shall we ban all discussion on these forums because we might not fully 'understand the situation?'. What a two bob comment to make
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Post by Shrewed on Sept 8, 2011 20:46:20 GMT 1
Gebbashrew77, I suspect that Gordon Taylor and the PFA have a far better understanding of football today than you and many other posters on the thread have. The members of the Professional footballers Association obviously feel there is racism in English football. Although I don't agree that with this proposal I actually believe professional footballers understand the situation better than you do. Ed, sure if try hard enough, you could possibly be more patronising!! Downie, I am obviously learning from you, you are the master of patronisation.
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Post by africanshrew on Sept 8, 2011 21:06:48 GMT 1
[If you can distinguish between races in terms of physical ability than surely the same can apply with mental ability?]You can if you are ignorant, stupid and have no grasp of science. I would suggest someone who holds such a perception is not in a strong position to question the mental abilities of anyone.
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Sept 8, 2011 21:14:58 GMT 1
[If you can distinguish between races in terms of physical ability than surely the same can apply with mental ability?]You can if you are ignorant, stupid and have no grasp of science. [img src="http://www.shropshire.btinternet.co.uk/smiley/ www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/mad/mad0223.gif"].gif [/img] [img src="http://www.shropshire.btinternet.co.uk/smiley/ www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/mad/mad0223.gif"].gif[/img] I would suggest someone who holds such a perception is not in a strong position to question the mental abilities of anyone. [/quote] How belligerent of you, you a question I put out there as purely a method of thought and you turned in to something it wasnt. How very clever of you . Would it be too much to ask for your personal opinion on the subject in hand or do you adopt the attack first, ask questions later kind of approach?
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Post by Shrewed on Sept 8, 2011 21:27:15 GMT 1
So the lack of success with the international team, the lack of decent players coming through the ranks, the lack of a winter break that puts us far behind the rest of Europe in terms of fitness in European competitions, the continued scrutiny by the F.A of FIFA and the need to rid the world game of corruption, the continued pressure on UEFA and FIFA to act on racism which is still rife in the game on both the European and World scene as we found out last weekend in Bulgaria. None of these 'problems' you would prioritise over something that may or may not exist in the English game? And I'm not a professional footballer, but then again I'm in the majority of people on this forum that arent. So whats your point? Shall we ban all discussion on these forums because we might not fully 'understand the situation?'. What a two bob comment to make Yes you identify problem in football today, but you ignore a problem identified by the key employees within the business. Because one of the PFA solutions to a perceived problem is a non runner you feel that the problem does not exists. I believe you are blind to the obvious racialism within English football.
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Sept 8, 2011 21:32:19 GMT 1
So the lack of success with the international team, the lack of decent players coming through the ranks, the lack of a winter break that puts us far behind the rest of Europe in terms of fitness in European competitions, the continued scrutiny by the F.A of FIFA and the need to rid the world game of corruption, the continued pressure on UEFA and FIFA to act on racism which is still rife in the game on both the European and World scene as we found out last weekend in Bulgaria. None of these 'problems' you would prioritise over something that may or may not exist in the English game? And I'm not a professional footballer, but then again I'm in the majority of people on this forum that arent. So whats your point? Shall we ban all discussion on these forums because we might not fully 'understand the situation?'. What a two bob comment to make Yes you identify problem in football today, but you ignore a problem identified by the key employees within the business. Because one of the PFA solutions to a perceived problem is a non runner you feel that the problem does not exists. I believe you are blind to the obvious racialism within English football. If they are so obvious, hand me the facts. Until then I don't think what you've said holds any water or offers any kind of constructive argument. What do you believe is the solution then?
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Post by Shrewed on Sept 8, 2011 21:42:01 GMT 1
Yes you identify problem in football today, but you ignore a problem identified by the key employees within the business. Because one of the PFA solutions to a perceived problem is a non runner you feel that the problem does not exists. I believe you are blind to the obvious racialism within English football. If they are so obvious, hand me the facts. Until then I don't think what you've said holds any water or offers any kind of constructive argument. What do you believe is the solution then? What you fail to recognise it is not me that is suggesting that there is racialism in English football, it is the PFA that have identified the problem. Who do you suggest is best qualified to identify the problem you or the PFA.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2011 21:52:42 GMT 1
is there racisum everywhere?? so that would indicate that there is a problem in football, same as every sport, but to place rules in ther that they should at least offer an interview to black applicants is not the answer.
Perhaps the answer is to vet CV's (via independant panel) first and remove names and identifying features, rather than have the photos and all, just look at qualifications. Again doubt that would work, but to say that someone should at least get an interview just because of the colour of skin is very nieve.....
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Sept 8, 2011 21:52:42 GMT 1
If they are so obvious, hand me the facts. Until then I don't think what you've said holds any water or offers any kind of constructive argument. What do you believe is the solution then? What you fail to recognise it is not me that is suggesting that there is racialism in English football, it is the PFA that have identified the problem. Who do you suggest is best qualified to identify the problem you or the PFA. You use the term 'racialism' quite a lot yet I've re-read the article and the Gordon Taylor statement and I didn't see any kind of accusations of racism thrown at anybody so I struggle to see what exactly you're talking about. I believe you're getting the idea that some ethnic minorities feel as though they arent getting the same opportunities in management confused with some underlying racial tension within the game that in my opinion (for what its worth, this is a discussion forum after all)doesn't exist and unless you have the facts to back up that there is, I just don't see where you're comng from.
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Sept 8, 2011 21:56:22 GMT 1
is there racisum everywhere?? so that would indicate that there is a problem in football, same as every sport, but to place rules in ther that they should at least offer an interview to black applicants is not the answer. Perhaps the answer is to vet CV's (via independant panel) first and remove names and identifying features, rather than have the photos and all, just look at qualifications. Again doubt that would work, but to say that someone should at least get an interview just because of the colour of skin is very nieve..... I have in the past filled in application forums with the option 'prefer not to say' with regards to race, can't say its ever served me well or badly but with a name like mine in a town such as Shrewsbury, I think it would be pretty easy to work out my background . But I agree with your point, this new ruling would only see minority coaches go through sham interviews just so clubs can comply with the rule and avoid being fined.
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Post by africanshrew on Sept 8, 2011 21:56:44 GMT 1
[If you can distinguish between races in terms of physical ability than surely the same can apply with mental ability?]You can if you are ignorant, stupid and have no grasp of science. [img src="http://www.shropshire.btinternet.co.uk/smiley/ www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/mad/mad0223.gif"].gif [/img] [img src="http://www.shropshire.btinternet.co.uk/smiley/ www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/mad/mad0223.gif"].gif[/img] I would suggest someone who holds such a perception is not in a strong position to question the mental abilities of anyone. [/quote] How belligerent of you, you a question I put out there as purely a method of thought and you turned in to something it wasnt. How very clever of you . Would it be too much to ask for your personal opinion on the subject in hand or do you adopt the attack first, ask questions later kind of approach? [/quote] I wasn't trying to be clever but equally I don't think you can hide behind the fact that 'you were just putting it out there', they are your words after all. So often people who hold extreme views hide behind 'putting things out there' as they are unable to defend their views when challenged, sorry if that doesn't apply to you. But whether you meant to or not you effectively 'put it out there' that some races might be inherently more or less mentally able than others. I found the hard to get my head around given we're in the 21st Century. If you didn't mean to give this impression then it would be great if you say so then none of what I've said applies to you, it's all a big misunderstanding - but one I think was worth pointing out. I've have already given an opinion on the subject in hand, I think the stats suggest black managers aren't getting a chance but I'm not convinced positive discrimination is the answer. I'm not doing this to pick a fight but racism flits in and out of the shadows in the country and we need to continue to challenge it until it dies.
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Sept 8, 2011 22:06:39 GMT 1
How belligerent of you, you a question I put out there as purely a method of thought and you turned in to something it wasnt. How very clever of you . Would it be too much to ask for your personal opinion on the subject in hand or do you adopt the attack first, ask questions later kind of approach? I wasn't trying to be clever but equally I don't think you can hide behind the fact that 'you were just putting it out there', they are your words after all. So often people who hold extreme views hide behind 'putting things out there' as they are unable to defend their views when challenged, sorry if that doesn't apply to you. But whether you meant to or not you effectively 'put it out there' that some races might be inherently more or less mentally able than others. I found the hard to get my head around given we're in the 21st Century. If you didn't mean to give this impression then it would be great if you say so then none of what I've said applies to you, it's all a big misunderstanding - but one I think was worth pointing out. I've have already given an opinion on the subject in hand, I think the stats suggest black managers aren't getting a chance but I'm not convinced positive discrimination is the answer. I'm not doing this to pick a fight but racism flits in and out of the shadows in the country and we need to continue to challenge it until it dies. I'm a journalist, its what I do I put questions out there to spark debate. I'm sorry if you or anyone interpreted it wrong so I have changed it to sound a little bit more like how I meant it to sound. We are on the same page then, I don't believe positive discrimination works in any environment as it is exactly that 'discrimination'. As regards to our opinions on this country and racism, perhaps we slightly differ. I can only speak for the countries I have seen or know of first hand but in my opinion we are so far ahead of places like Australia, mainland Europe, Africa, a majority of states in the U.S and I believe we should be proud of being one of the most hospitable countries in the world in terms of culture, race, religion etc. To deny it exists at all would be ignorant however, but I still think we've come a long way and the media focus is only ever on the negative aspects of multi-culturalism rather than the places in which it works which I'd like to think is the majority.
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