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Post by kickinpretty on Feb 3, 2004 15:06:48 GMT 1
Unless the council are going to pay the market rate for the Gay Meadow site then you should not attend a meeting which could be held up as showing massive support for the council to buy Gay Meadow at "Car Park" valuation. (sub £9million )
Does anyone really believe that the club will turn down an offer in excess of £10 million for Gay Meadow and still own an extra 42 acres of prime development land at Otley road in favour of a sub £9 million offer for both plots which in all probability will not be enough to build a new stadium.
PLEASE - DO NOT SUPPORT THIS IDEA BY ATTENDING THE MEETING - Danny Moore has already indicated that they will not pay more than the sub £9 million "Car Park" valuation for the two plots, STFC will not sell for that amount so its a complete non starter and is more to do with political point scoring before this years local elections
DO NOT ATTEND OR YOU WILL BE GIVING THE COUNCIL AND NIMBYS AMMUNITION TO BE USED AGAINST THE CLUB AT A LATER DATE.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2004 15:12:01 GMT 1
Hmm not sure I agree with this at all
Turning up does not show any support for Labour or their ideas, it would purely show, IMO, that there is much pro-NM support out there.
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Post by kickinpretty on Feb 3, 2004 15:18:19 GMT 1
Ant - The meeting has been called to discuss the Gay Meadow development, nothing to do with the New Meadow.
It really doesnt matter what the Labour /Lib Dems think anymore because if they are not prepared to pay market value, Alaska / STFC will sell to Jennings homes at market value and still retain selling rights an an additional 42 acres.
Why support something or even discuss something that isnt going to happen, be sure mate that a high attendance at the meeting by pro New Meadow people will be hald up as support for buying the Gay Meadow at "Car Park" valuation.
There is a £5 million + differance in price, are you really sure you want to support something that will never see New Meadow built - £9 million isnt enough and we wont sell.
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Post by Bilbo on Feb 3, 2004 15:24:43 GMT 1
Maybe we should get Ian Whitfield to approach the Directors of the club to give us their opinions on what we should do!!
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Feb 3, 2004 16:20:28 GMT 1
SUFAN have told us to go to the meeting in large numbers to show support for the new meadow project Now suddenly Kickin has all the knowledge in the world and tells us to ignore the people who have been fighting for our new stadium for years That's fine if you want Kickin, you ignore Plimmer and Jones when they ask us to go I cannot believe how utterly devoid of logic this is. Going to the meeting does not show support for the proposal. SARA will have plenty of people there who hate the football club and hate all projects. We need to have New Meadow supporters there to stand up for STFC in what could be a very heated debate It is up to STFC to decide whatever scheme they want, but what we need is STFC fans at this meeting to show that we care and are engaging with the political process how dare you come on here and undermine that process, throwing out what the STFC supporters group (responsible for 95% of the good work done by STFC supporters towards this project) have asked us to do Plimmer and Jones say go to the meeting, so we go. They've brought us this far and on we go. Stop your pointless drivel and if you need to know why you should go ring Ade Plimmer and stop confusing people on a very important issue. Most disappointed in you
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Post by petetheloon on Feb 3, 2004 16:22:37 GMT 1
Is it Paul Walsh?
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Post by kickinpretty on Feb 3, 2004 16:35:18 GMT 1
TBH - Stop talking to me like a child for a start.
You talk about this meeting as if its the be all and end all, it isnt even to discuss the New Meadow so why bring that argument into it?
Labour leader Danny Moore has stated publicly that they will only pay the "Car Park" price for both plots and the meeting has been called to discuss this idea and to win backing for the idea.
What you are missing is the fact that the club will not sell at that price, so what is the point of the meeting and what is the point in supporters groups attending ?
You can show your support for the new meadow any time you like TBH but what the hell has this got to do with the New Meadow saga - Absolutly nothing, so dont confuse people by trying to make out that this meeting DOES have something to do with it.
As for your comments regarding Plimmer and Ian Jones - I think your bang out of order to be honest.
I fully recognise that they work tirelessly to try and get the New Meadow development pushed forward and have alaways supported them in there efforts, however i do not look upon them as some sort of demi-gogue that must always be agreed with.
I personally think that attending this meeting is a big mistake and a complete waste of time and will send the labour group the message that they have the support of the supporters groups in their attempt to steal the Gay Meadow site and land at Otley off STFC , and yes i mean steal, the land is worth £14 million and that is the going rate.
Why are you supporting something that the club has already decided does not meet their expectations for valuation of the two sites?
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Post by faginy on Feb 3, 2004 16:37:46 GMT 1
if you don't agree with it kickin, then don't go.
simple
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Feb 3, 2004 16:53:50 GMT 1
1) I don't think you are a child 2) I don't think Ian and Ade are demi Gods who are always right
apologies if that is what I sounded like
BUT
The main STFC Supporters Group responsible for uniting fans to help support the new meadow project have asked us to go to a meeting
In my book that means we go to a meeting. This is not just a meeting about the GM site is it? All the old SARA ideas and proposals will be dredged up I am sure and there will be plenty of people ready to say some pretty harsh things about STFC
We need to be there to counter this, balance the meeting and speak to the press about the new ground
I don't think STFC will adopt this proposal, I have never siad they will, SUFAN have never said they will, what we have said though ts that we do need to be at that meeting
If you don't agree with them I suggest you contact them and find out why they think we should go to this meeting. Spouting off on here to everyone else before you have contacted SUFAN seems very bizarre to me.
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Post by kickinpretty on Feb 3, 2004 16:56:14 GMT 1
Last nights shropshire star ...
They want people to show there support for buying the land at "Car Park" valuation (sub £9million), STFC and Alaska have already declined this proposal and will only sell at market value - Currently £14 million.
Please tell me what good attending this meeting will do, and what exactly are you supporting? If its the New Meadow then you are wrong to attend as its already in the bag. If you are going to support this scheme then you are going against STFC.
What is the point in attending this meeting - Please explain and dont confuse every one by linking this to the New Meadow - its not an issue in the debate anymore - We won that one last year.
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Post by BelleVueShrew on Feb 3, 2004 16:57:59 GMT 1
Kickin,
I hear what you are saying. But I think it important to know that Ade and Ian are in regular touch with both Keith Sayfritz at STFC and Alan Hay at Alaska.
They would not recommend attendance if it was not the wishes of STFC and Alaska.
I think we all bang the same drum when we say we aren't going to sell for 9 million when we can get more.
But we need to ensure the council members are left in no doubt of this, whilst repeling any shi*e that SARA will undoubtedly try to spin on such things as the covenant and the like.
We cannot afford to just let SARA have an unopposed say.
Get down there Kickin and use your undoubted knowledge on the subject to support the cause.
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Post by Mediolanum Shrew on Feb 3, 2004 17:04:27 GMT 1
Kickin,
I would never do anything that would jeopardise the club moving to a new stadium. It is what I have faught for, spent most of the last two and a half years, campaigning, writing letters, appearing on radio, television etc.
As I said in my other post we need a presence there. We need to let councillors, not just from Labour, but Conservative and Liberals, that there is to be no more dilly dallying. The council have mucked the club around enough. It's time to get on and do the deal, and build the stadium, our club, fans and the town of Shrewsbury deserves.
I'm prepared to go, and here what they have to say. Sources tell me that there is more to the Labour groups suggestions than meets the eye. I'm interested, but there is no way I would support publically anything that would make the move to New Meadow not in the interests of STFC.
I know where your coming from Kickin, but we have to engage and discuss with these people there proposals, tell them our concerns.
At the end of the day m8, the football club will decide the best course of action, and one which will be the best for STFC.
But, we have to turn up at this meeting, and put our point of view across, and make ourselves heard, in a polite way of course.
I hope to c u there.
Ade Plimmer
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Post by kickinpretty on Feb 3, 2004 17:04:54 GMT 1
...also
Do you really think that Danny Moore etc... have yet to take on board the views of SARA and the rest of the Nimby posse?
They know that the majority in Shrewsbury are behind the new theatre on Gay Meadow, thats why they have called the meeting, however attendance by STFC supporters groups will give them the backing they need to try and push for a below market value sale.
TBH - If you cant see that attending this meeting will do more damage than good then thats your view but equally, my view is a valid view and shared by others.
By attending the meeting you are giving it some authority, the last thing STFC needs is for public opinion to swing against it just as they put pen to paper over a multi-million deal.
We would all like the new theatre on Gay Meadow, but realistically its not going to happen with an offer of sub £9 million.
Its political posteuring in time for the june elections - surley you can see this?
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Feb 3, 2004 17:07:28 GMT 1
What is the point in attending this meeting - Please explain and dont confuse every one by linking this to the New Meadow - its not an issue in the debate anymore - We won that one last year. The New Meadow is very much in the debate and we must continue to make ourselves heard You spend the last month talking baout we should mobilise and challenge the council and a public meeting come sup and now you say no-one should go. It is a public meeting, go along and say you think it's all a load of rubbish and SABC should support STFC in it's negotiations with a private developer. It is a public meeting at which all sides will be represented. Go and have your say! You can say ANYTHING you want, all the arguments about the deal itself above are relevant, go and tell them they are selling the club short and the people of shrewsbury deserve better.
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Post by kickinpretty on Feb 3, 2004 17:15:27 GMT 1
TBH -
It is not in the debate anymore, we have planning permission already.
What is in the debate is whether STFC can fund the move, selling to the council isnt an issue anymore either unless they pay market rate.
So, according to that logic, this meeting is pointless and by attending it you are giving it some authority over issues that are now out of its control.
Unless the council pay market price the ground will be sold to Jennings, which will release funds for the New Meadow development.
What happens regards the covenant is then out of STFC hands and firmly placed with Jennigs to sort out, they can do what they like with the land its really not an issue for us anymore.
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Post by glasgowshrew on Feb 3, 2004 17:18:53 GMT 1
Kickin, I have only a limited knowledge on these type of meetings but if you attend don't you have the opportunity to put your own opinion forward.
You seem, as stated to be knowledgeable so wouldn't it be better to go instead of letting SARA / anyone who agrees with the nine million price have the centre stage without a challenge.
If we ignore this opportunity to put forward an opinion it will be chucked back at us (Just like we would at SARA)
You seem to refer to Jennigs alot - has this deal been signed yet, is the price agreed
- If not then the battle has not finished, what happens if Jennings pull out/ offer a lower price, we have not given an opinion over the latest developments so are left behind yet again - just because the finishing line is in site doesn't mean that those who support the move should sit back and relax
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Post by kickinpretty on Feb 3, 2004 17:26:10 GMT 1
Whats the point of debating a sub £9 million offer that will never in a month of Sundays be accepted by Alaska or STFC.
The whole thing is a smokescreen that will give Labour the moral high ground come the June elections.
SARA have lost the battle, the New Meadow will be built at Otley road and the Gya Meadow will be sold to Jennings or another developer, the council will have no say in this so the meeting is pointless.
These are polititions posteuring for the moral high ground and by attending you are giving them a platform which they have no right stand on, the council will have no say as to the Gay Meadow development unless they offer market valuation.
If a supporters group, Alaska or the football club had called this meeting and invited polititions along then yes i would agree that it would be a good idea to attend.
This is not a meeting that STFC supporters groups should attend IMHO.
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Post by kickinpretty on Feb 3, 2004 17:30:48 GMT 1
My stance if i was of ades or Ian Jones stature would be to call a press conference on behalf of the umbrella group stating that they would not attend the meeting unless a realistic offer would be made to STFC for Gay Meadow.
Its very simple to let Danny Moore and co know your stand point without having to attend the meeting and give it a voice of authority, when it actually has no authority over anything that may happen, they lost that on December 31st.
Let SARA etc. attend, what possible bearing can they now have on a battle they have already lost?
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Feb 3, 2004 17:31:20 GMT 1
I understand we disagree Kickin, and of course you have the right to say what you want
I just think ti is a deep deep shame that at a time hwen we ened to work together as fans to mobilise positive support for a new stadium you choose to ignore what SUFAN are saying
I also find it difficult because you don't actually know what this plan entails because no-one does and it is only going to be announced on Thursday.
Send me a private message and I can explain.
Also, for the last month you have wanted to set up a political party and a web site to challenge all the stupid SABC decisions and ideas and also put pressure on SABC for a new football stadium.
Now we have a major public meeting with full press coverage and lots of potential to have all this aired and you are suggesting not even going and leaving all the publicity to people who hate STFC and the ground move
That is your choice, your option, it is a free world etc etc etc but whether you agree with 9 million or not, you need to be at this meeting to make your feelings known.
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Post by glasgowshrew on Feb 3, 2004 17:34:37 GMT 1
Kickin
Wouldn't it be a good idea to go just to express what you have just said - advise them as you said
' SARA have lost the battle, the New Meadow will be built at Otley road and the Gay Meadow will be sold to Jennings or another developer, the council will have no say in this so the meeting is pointless'.
The people who attend meetings do not always know as much as you do, why not enlighten them - this may resolve the problem one and for all.
Do the council have the right to by the land without dispute - if they put an offer in can STFC refuse it?
Where do the club legally stand if this happens?
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Post by Mediolanum Shrew on Feb 3, 2004 17:36:10 GMT 1
Kickin
We could end up doing a press release anyway to that effect if we think the proposals arent good enough, buts lets find out what the full acts are first m8
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Post by kickinpretty on Feb 3, 2004 17:40:35 GMT 1
Do you want me to draft you up a press release ade ;D
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Post by kickinpretty on Feb 3, 2004 17:51:49 GMT 1
TBH - We have a meeting yes, but we dont have a subject worth discussing, a sub £9 million offer is not going to build us a new stadium, its very simple maths.
My opinion on this is very strong, if we show that we are weak then you give the council a bite of the cherry, stand firm with STFC and we stand a far greater chance of getting what we want, Danny Moore has already lain his cards on the table and they arnt good enough to win the game.
Let them have their meeting and pat themselves on the back, its bloody pointless unless they can up the offer to market value, i can remember reading a post saying that the council will pump in another £5 million on top for infrastructure at Otley road, if this was the case why not just give that extra £5 million for the Gay Meadow and let Alaska / STFC build it out of the sale price?
The council are trying to screw us, the only thing is we hold all the aces, dont give them a chance by attending a meeting for proposals that will never happen.
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Post by Mediolanum Shrew on Feb 3, 2004 17:56:14 GMT 1
I think well show who is weak if we don't go m8. Its that simple.
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Post by kickinpretty on Feb 3, 2004 18:04:55 GMT 1
How ade?
If you a willing to talk it means that a negotiated settlement can be reached, we are basically £5 million + apart in valuation, the council are unwilling to budge, they are on record as such, we need the money so wont move either - so we wont sell the Gay Meadow to them - its that simple.
Why give something the authority it doesnt deserve, you are saying look im here we as fans support your proposals and want the club to sell at sub £9 million.
Why not call your own meeting and invite Danny Moore and a rep from the other parties to discuss the whole thing, at least that way its a fans initiative and not a political point scoring exercise - That mate i would fully support.
If you can get the Barnabus centre, i can get all the sound equipment and mics needed at no cost, i will even pay for out of my own pocket a run of leaflets if needed to publicise it - The whole meeting thing would be better done on our terms and with all political parties present.
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Post by faginy on Feb 3, 2004 18:08:07 GMT 1
we are basically £5 million + apart in valuation hasn't someone bid £10million for the Gay Meadow land?
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Post by kickinpretty on Feb 3, 2004 18:09:48 GMT 1
£14 million is what the club offered the land (Gay Meadow + 42 Acres at Otley Road) to the council for and yes STFC have an offer on the table for OVER £10 million.
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Post by faginy on Feb 3, 2004 18:12:58 GMT 1
£14 million is what the club offered the land to the council for and yes STFC have an offer on the table for OVER £10 million. so whats your problem? if STFC have an offer on the table for £10mil+ then the £9m offer from the council is neither here or there.......but it's interesting to know what they have to say.
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Post by kickinpretty on Feb 3, 2004 18:19:27 GMT 1
If its neither here nore there then what is the point discussing something that will never happen, we may as well talk about something else that will never happen like the merits of bringing Maggie Thatvher back to power.
A meeting called by the supporters groups and attended by reps from all parties would IMHO be much more valuable as we would here all sides of the argument and it wouldnt be seen as political posteuring.
If the will is there to call the meeting then im sure that the labour group would be more than willing to give up a few seats at the table next Thursday for the other parties to attend and let the Umbrella group take over as chair of the meeting and meeting organiser.
Failing that just organise one off our own backs, im all for it, lets be proactive here, what im not for is attending a meeting where the agenda has already been sealed and support for that agenda is being saught from those who are organising it.
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Post by glasgowshrew on Feb 3, 2004 18:22:31 GMT 1
How ade? Why not call your own meeting and invite Danny Moore and a rep from the other parties to discuss the whole thing, at least that way its a fans initiative and not a political point scoring exercise - That mate i would fully support. What is there to stop them saying, we have given you the opportunity to discuss this openly but you didn't bother turning up then so why should we bother now
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