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Post by Guestmc on Feb 2, 2005 20:19:39 GMT 1
Still being more than a 'smidgin' selective, kickin me old mucka? Like your absolute certainty that Iraq had WMD (Which you don't seem to mention these days - surprise, surprise ), which we needed to remove with an invasion. You now cling to the 'party line' that these elections are the dawning of a new era for the Iraqui people and will herald peace and freedom throughout the region. Wake up, mate, and smell the coffee indeed very selective,, figures point to a fairly balanced immigration pattern between developed countries,,, you mean like white ones and everyone knows that 3rd world, (you have already quoted african aids sufferers... ) you mean Black.. why not start a thread called lets keep britain white? the British way of Life, what is it? explain?
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Post by kickinpretty on Feb 2, 2005 20:24:28 GMT 1
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Post by kickinpretty on Feb 2, 2005 20:49:42 GMT 1
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2005 21:09:31 GMT 1
Immigrants are a vital part of this countries society IMO.
Apart from filling many gaps in the job market they add a much wider culture to the country
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Post by Gguest on Feb 2, 2005 21:27:13 GMT 1
so just what is the British way of life?
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Post by kickinpretty on Feb 2, 2005 21:31:29 GMT 1
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Post by manys a twist on Feb 2, 2005 21:33:11 GMT 1
Is it accurate? Didn't think we did with the exception of workers with specific skills. No it doesn't. 40% non-white maybe, (not sure where that figure came from, but for the sake of argument...) but are they all 'foreign'? Is your definition of Englishness 'white' like a certain other poster on the board? What do you mean 'allowed'? If non-white British/EU citizens wish to move to London but the 'quota' is reached would you stop them buying homes there until a few more white folk had beeen born/moved in? Do you believe in controlling movement within our borders as well? Of course they integrate where they can. WTF? Not necessarily, but it certainly disciminates against those who aren't citizens of Rome. If you mean should migrants be encouraged to learn English, yes, but then most of the economically active ones do anyway. If you mean should people be forced to abandon their religion, culinary preferences, clothing, music, etc, etc, then certainly not. If the British ones are so superior they'll abandon them from choice soon enough anyway. If not, we'll have been enriched. Does anyone seriously think this country would be better had we never been exposed to reggae, ska, rock, ragga, rap, Asian food, pizza, pasta... No, why should they? No, why should they be? What about those people with whom the UK has reciprocal healthcare arrangements? How does it benefit the nation to have sick and untreated individuals littering the place? (And to pre-empt the reply, many of whom do not bave anywhere else to go. Kick out anyone who wilfully distorts and abuses statistics to further their flimsy arguments. I have a couple of questions of my own: Q1. Why do some people consistently fail to differentiate between non-white people and 'immigrants? Q2. Why do people who 'just want an honest debate' about immigration deliberately distort and inflate the numbers of incomers? Q3. Why do people who 'just want an honest debate' about immigration bang on about 'third world' and 'economic' migrants when the largest group of immigrants to the UK is comprised of EU citizens and the second largest from relatively wealthier countries like Australia, NZ and Canada, with whom we have reciprocal arrangements? Q4. Why do people who 'just want an honest debate' about immigration phrase their questions to imply problems that don't exist and downplay positive economic and social benefits of immigration? Look at Q8 for example. It implies that migrants are a net drain on the NHS. Where is the evidence for this? What do the figures actually prove? Q5. Why do people who 'just want an honest debate' about immigration talk about our 'open door policy'? It's actually quite hard to get into the UK, certainly harder than it ever has been. These aren't 'just searching questions', they're deliberately racially slanted, full of half-truths, distortions and urban myths. Q6.Would you turn away people who are fleeing genocide, rape, torture because your quotas have been filled? Do you feel no responsibility for people who've suffered at the hands of regimes backed by successive British governments? i think you put your point over very well, no wonder kickin couldnt answer your questions, you may not have mention the skin thing kickin, but most sensible people saw through it.
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Post by theriverside on Feb 2, 2005 21:34:52 GMT 1
Immigrants are a vital part of this countries society IMO. Apart from filling many gaps in the job market they add a much wider culture to the country Thing is Phil that the wages paid are no alternative to the benefits system for many lifelong UK residents who are better off by not working. The only people that £4.85 an hour is attractive to are those from places where earnings are low. I have staff from Africa, Asia and Eastern Europe who are here to earn money to send home to their families. Unless the min wage is raised to at least the £6/6.50 ph mark, there will be shortfalls in foodservice / retail/ domestic labour that Government's will happily allow to be filled by migrants to keep influential businesses happy and in profit.
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Post by manys a twist on Feb 2, 2005 21:38:09 GMT 1
why dont you tell us that one guesty, as you seem so hung up on it! your question Q4. Do you believe that Britain should continue its free for all immigration policy, or should the shutters come down to safeguard "the British way of life". well i am 2nd generation british... my parents were both immigrants, so please tell me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2005 21:40:30 GMT 1
Thing is Phil that the wages paid are no alternative to the benefits system for many lifelong UK residents who are better off by not working. Totally agree with you there Tel and unfortunately that seems to show how lazy some British people are. I'd always think that if I was in that situation I'd prefer to try and work my way into a better paid job. I could never sit at home all day and do nothing.
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Post by kickinpretty on Feb 2, 2005 21:48:14 GMT 1
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Post by kickinpretty on Feb 2, 2005 21:57:04 GMT 1
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chrisj
Midland League Division Two
Just get on with it.
Posts: 164
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Post by chrisj on Feb 2, 2005 21:57:40 GMT 1
Chris J- no one has mentioned skin colour in this debate least of all me so all your remarks about this are just to portray me as a racist which i am not, i have listed several questions which i have heard being discussed recently and have given where possible the choice to answer in a positive or a negative way. These issues will be on the front pages at the next general election and i was interested to see what views people have on here, but as always with this issue if you dont have a completely open door attitude to immigration your made out to be a racist even though no mention of race or skin colour has been made. No, what I have a problem with is the set of assumptions underlying the questions. They assume problems that don't exist. It is not necessarily racist to talk about immigration, but why the loaded rhetoric and misleading 'facts'? Q1. Is it correct that the UK activley encourages economic migration from developing and third world countries You haven't responded to my point; in general we don't. Therefore the question is based on a false premise. If you'd like an example of how unfair that rhetorical device can be, answer the following question in a negative or positive way: "Have you stopped beating your wife - yes or no?" Q4. Do you believe that Britain should continue its free for all immigration policy, or should the shutters come down to safeguard "the British way of life". We don't have a 'free for all' policy, so why are you asking the question? From what does the British way of life need safeguarding? Is it really under threat from migration? If not, again the question is meaningless. Q6. Do you believe the Courts should deport any migrant that commits a crime involving fraud, violence or offence of a sexual nature. Why just migrants? Is there an implication here that migrants are particularly prone to such acts? If not, the question, again, is meaningless. Should we deport any individual who commits such acts, or is their migrant status somehow connected with their behaviour? Q7. Do you think migrants should be deported if they claim benefits for more than 6 months. Do you think unfair that people awaiting the resolution of their cases are not allowed to work and then pilloried by Mail readers for being on benefits? Q8, Do you think Free NHS healthcare should only be provide to people who have obtained British Nationality or were born in the UK unless agreed to on an individual basis by the home office. Again you haven't answered my earlier points. If there is no net drain on the NHS why ask the question? There is an underlying philosophy that immigration is a problem and this has no factual basis. The questions could have beeen phrased along the lines; Q1. Has the government's immigration policy been effective in attracting the number of skilled workers we need to meeet shortages in key industries and services? Q2. Do you agree that London would grind to a halt without the low-paid labour of immigrants who aren't too proud to get their hands dirty? Q3. If you were a British-born citizen of 'foreign ethnicity' might you not get a tad ticked off with people who insist on embroiling you in the immigration 'problem'. Q4. Do you consider Britain's current restrictive immigration policy to be too tight? Q5. Do you believe that when an economy gets the benefit it derives from migrant work it is unfair to abuse the migrants for seeking to maintain some of their religious or cultural values? Q6. Do you believe that people who commit racially motivated crimes against migrants should be sent to those migrants' countries of origin to teach them a lesson? Q7. See above. Q8. Ditto Q9. If you were an asylum seeker fleeing from torture or violence and despite being a qualified doctor were required to clean hospital floors for minimum wage and then moonlight as a pizza-boy for less, and live in a cr@p hole because of the cost of living in London, and yet always paid your taxes, supported your children's teachers and kept the laws of your new country - even when picking your way through the racially-abusive, binge-drinking, projectile-vomiting mess of a Saturday night - what would be your policy towards those who went around claiming you were some kind of threat to British way of life?
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Post by manys a twist on Feb 2, 2005 21:58:32 GMT 1
Well, you can see those who dont take the time to read whats been posted and then jump in with complete made up b******s. No wonder this country is going to pot when you cant even invite discussion about immigrants without being branded rascist, are you sure your not being rascist yourselves? You sure as hell are being bigots, and you sure as hell arnt reading the posts properly, if you want to twist my posts to satisfy his need to be mr PC 2005 then thats up to you, but i didnt make any distinctions about race or skin colour - you did so, so what does that make you....mmmmm So you cannot tell me what the British way of is? taht needs SAFEGUARDING?
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Post by manys a twist on Feb 2, 2005 22:02:35 GMT 1
Do i feel british?
sometimes yes but when i read points like safeguarding "the british way of life"
No i dont i feel like an outsider
still dont know what it is mind, my parents both Polish didnt tell me, should i take the cricket test like the old tory histlertine wanted in the 80's?
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Post by Guest on Feb 2, 2005 22:03:16 GMT 1
No, what I have a problem with is the set of assumptions underlying the questions. They assume problems that don't exist. It is not necessarily racist to talk about immigration, but why the loaded rhetoric and misleading 'facts'? The nail hit squarely on the head there Chris, well done.
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Post by harmerhillshrew on Feb 2, 2005 22:08:05 GMT 1
Totally agree with you there Tel and unfortunately that seems to show how lazy some British people are. My wife works in the accounts dept of a meat processing factory and no one wants the work in the factory. OK it is pretty naft and I dont think I could stick it and thats from a bloke up to it in cow s**t all day. But the Eastern Europeans take it on no problem. Some have been around a few years and have gained promotion and hold manager status. There a good laugh too and boy can they drink. Most of them just want a break and a job. They dont want benefits. I remember last year when the EEC admitted all the new countries and the Mail every day told us we were going to be over run by all sorts of foreign people within days. Well Im still waiting to be over run.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2005 22:11:08 GMT 1
Yes, unfortuatley there are people who would rather take unemployment that work in an unfashionable job, like in a meat factory etc.
The attitude p**ses me off. If you're a hard worker there will always be chances for you to progress within the company and, if nothing else, it proves to future employers that you're motivated. Sadly though there are some lazy b@stards in the UK.
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Post by kickinpretty on Feb 2, 2005 22:21:31 GMT 1
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Post by harmerhillshrew on Feb 2, 2005 22:27:44 GMT 1
Hey its ok, lets get shed loads of eastern europeans in to do all the sh!t jobs - its ok there only foreigners what does it matter - well if thats not racially motivated discrimination i dont know what is. I suggest you read the post I have put on the subject a little closer. Hard work is been rewarded with promotion. I have not even said lets get them in, they turn up asking. Every week I have Latvians and Lithuainians (sp) asking me for work on the farm.
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Post by theriverside on Feb 2, 2005 22:27:55 GMT 1
Hey its ok, lets get shed loads of eastern europeans in to do all the sh!t jobs - its ok there only foreigners what does it matter - well if thats not racially motivated discrimination i dont know what is, as for you Chris, you see the questions posed the way you want to see it, obviously from my comments im a universal rascist who would prefer every person is not purely english to **** off back to there own countries, hey i have learnt something today, you can either agree to unlimited UK immigration or your a racsist well if thats the case - im a racsit and damn well proud of it cos at the end of the day those ozzy barstewards are taking all the decent bar jobs in london and leaving **** all for the english student population. It's a case of having no option Kickin with the influx of cheap labour. Too many dont want to work and its not an economic sensibility for many more (personally pride would make me work even if benefits made me better off). The system needs an overhaul to bring people out of the handout culture and into the taxpaying classes. I don't think anyone is saying give all the crap jobs to foreigners in a degrading way, its just there id no one else who wants the jobs or who it is worth their while to do them...............
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Post by manys a twist on Feb 2, 2005 22:34:57 GMT 1
i am still waiting for someone to tell me what the "british way of life is" that needs safeguarding, as i have stated i am british(born here) but of polish/jewish blood should i ignore that, my heritage? in favour of britishisness....
i know many 2nd/3rd generation blacks/asian who are more british than me, yet will not be able to answer this question..
safeguarding "the british way of life" tbh its sounds like something the 3rd reich would/did say only, it was about German blooden and keeping it racially pure
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Post by kickinpretty on Feb 2, 2005 22:36:42 GMT 1
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chrisj
Midland League Division Two
Just get on with it.
Posts: 164
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Post by chrisj on Feb 2, 2005 22:42:29 GMT 1
Hey its ok, lets get shed loads of eastern europeans in to do all the sh!t jobs - its ok there only foreigners what does it matter - well if thats not racially motivated discrimination i dont know what is, as for you Chris, you see the questions posed the way you want to see it, obviously from my comments im a universal rascist who would prefer every person is not purely english to **** off back to there own countries, hey i have learnt something today, you can either agree to unlimited UK immigration or your a racsist well if thats the case - im a racsit and damn well proud of it cos at the end of the day those ozzy barstewards are taking all the decent bar jobs in london and leaving **** all for the english student population. I may have confused you by over-elaborating so I'll sum up my argument; the way you pose the questions betrays a great deal about how you see the answers. I asked the same questions you did, but they sounded quite different did they not? Are you really claiming your language was neutral? I'm not, but that's the point. I haven't called you a racist, though it does seem to me you have some issues with race and I'd be interested to hear your definition of Britishness. Your stuff about eastern Europeans was just silly. Have you got an answer for any of the points I made yet?!
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Post by harmerhillshrew on Feb 2, 2005 22:42:58 GMT 1
i am still waiting for someone to tell me what the "british way of life is" that needs safeguarding, as i have stated i am british(born here) but of polish/jewish blood should i ignore that, my heritage? in favour of britishisness.... i know many 2nd/3rd generation blacks/asian who are more british than me, yet will not be able to answer this question.. safeguarding "the british way of life" tbh its sounds like something the 3rd reich would/did say only, it was about German blooden and keeping it racially pure How does this sound, (and hey way not register ) British people are generally relaxed, although basic politeness (please, thank-you, excuse me) is expected. You may find British people more reserved than people in your home country - but this doesn't necessarily mean they are being unfriendly. It is important to be on time for appointments. If you find you are going to be late for a meeting you should, if possible, telephone to explain that you will be late. If you are invited to someone's home for a meal, you may wish to take a small gift (flowers, chocolates or a bottle of wine are the norm), or you could invite them to your flat/house in return. It's a nice idea to bring some small things from your home country or some photographs to show to friends or guests - British people will be interested in these. If your culture does not allow you to drink alcohol, you may be worried if you are invited to go to the local pub (public house or bar). Pubs are popular social meeting places and sell soft drinks as well as alcohol. Both men and women may visit pubs if they are over the age of 18. You will find that British men and women mix easily. British women are independent but, although they mix freely with men, this does not imply a willingness to enter into sexual relationships. Race Relations Act - there is a law in Britain which makes it illegal to discriminate against anyone because of their colour, race, nationality, ethnic or national origins. If you think you have been discriminated against, you can take legal action to secure redress. I could go on about cucumber sandwiches and watching Cricket on the Village green.
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Post by harmerhillshrew on Feb 2, 2005 22:46:05 GMT 1
There are 1 million unemployed in this country, there are enough workers around to fill available job vacancies, raise the wage levels and increase training, most people go to work to earn money, they dont go to work because they want to, there's only a small proportion of people that enjoy there work so much that they would stay if they won the lottery - life is all about money! Raise salaries, and the sh!t jobs will get done without the need for immigrants. Do the maths of immigration really add up? Can one of you liberal types offer the true cost and benifits of having an annual influx of 185 000 imigrants. Kickin most of those Million would never work in a month of Sundays, you know them, I know them and most people on this board know them.
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chrisj
Midland League Division Two
Just get on with it.
Posts: 164
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Post by chrisj on Feb 2, 2005 22:47:49 GMT 1
Do the maths of immigration really add up? Can one of you liberal types offer the true cost and benifits of having an annual influx of 185 000 imigrants. 1. Can you? Most economists agree that immigration brings costs and benefits, but the host society gains overall. 2. Is that net immigration or just all the people who enter? Does it take account of those who are here temporarily and then leave? Bet you don't answer this.
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Post by manys a twist on Feb 2, 2005 22:48:43 GMT 1
How does this sound, (and hey way not register ) British people are generally relaxed, although basic politeness (please, thank-you, excuse me) is expected. sounds like it is in poland as my relatives and others are the same. You may find British people more reserved than people in your home country - but this doesn't necessarily mean they are being unfriendly. This is my HOME country, i hold a uk passport not polish, i am 2nd generation its little comment like that that make me fell un british It is important to be on time for appointments. If you find you are going to be late for a meeting you should, if possible, telephone to explain that you will be late. again of all the countrys i have visited i have found most to be like this If you are invited to someone's home for a meal, you may wish to take a small gift (flowers, chocolates or a bottle of wine are the norm), or you could invite them to your flat/house in return. It's a nice idea to bring some small things from your home country or some photographs to show to friends or guests - British people will be interested in these. same for my relatives when they come over here.. If your culture does not allow you to drink alcohol, you may be worried if you are invited to go to the local pub (public house or bar). Pubs are popular social meeting places and sell soft drinks as well as alcohol. Both men and women may visit pubs if they are over the age of 18. have you not heard of Vodka You will find that British men and women mix easily. British women are independent but, although they mix freely with men, this does not imply a willingness to enter into sexual relationships. Race Relations Act - there is a law in Britain which makes it illegal to discriminate against anyone because of their colour, race, nationality, ethnic or national origins. If you think you have been discriminated against, you can take legal action to secure redress. I could go on about cucumber sandwiches and watching Cricket on the Village green.
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Post by kickinpretty on Feb 2, 2005 22:50:17 GMT 1
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Post by kickinpretty on Feb 2, 2005 22:52:57 GMT 1
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