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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2024 7:21:24 GMT 1
Just what is our level?
People on other threads have suggested that by being in the 3rd tier we are punching above and that in reality we are a 4th tier club. I dispute this, because for most of our history since the creation of the four tiers and moving from regional leagues we have been a 3rd tier club. Only once since making the old 3rd Division in 1960 did we drop down to the 4th and we came straight back up as runners up. John Bond failed to get us promoted at the first time of asking in 1993 and it cost him his job.
Since Wycherley took over in 1996 we have spent 15 years in the 4th tier and one in the Conference. My argument is that during his reign we have programmed ourselves to accept that we are a 4th tier club punching above our weight. I don't accept this. Over the history of the club we have only spent 18 years in the 4th tier with two of those stays only lasting one season and once for two, all the other seasons are on him.
The way things are looking this season could well see us heading down again and I don't envision it being an easy task to bounce back up, if anything we're more likely to be struggling to stay in the 4th tier.
The club has had 40 different managers over our entire history since 1905, 18 of those have been in the last 28 years of Wycherley's reign, which tells me that either he doesn't actually have a very good recruitment record or that he has failed to back any of those managers financially and doomed them to fail.
In some respects Wycherley may have been good for the club, but in others his tenure has been mediocre at best. The sooner he sells up the better.
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Post by Valerioch on Oct 7, 2024 7:36:57 GMT 1
Great post that I totally agree with
You only have to look at our entire history to suggest the 3rd tier is our natural level, but like everything over the last few years, there are attempts to gas light us and talk us down in to having no expectation whatsoever - this won’t change until we have fresh leadership in several places
Obviously I really hope we can stay up this season, but I just can’t see it
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Post by Pilch on Oct 7, 2024 8:09:28 GMT 1
Just what is our level?
People on other threads have suggested that by being in the 3rd tier we are punching above and that in reality we are a 4th tier club. I dispute this, because for most of our history since the creation of the four tiers and moving from regional leagues we have been a 3rd tier club. Only once since making the old 3rd Division in 1960 did we drop down to the 4th and we came straight back up as runners up. John Bond failed to get us promoted at the first time of asking in 1993 and it cost him his job.
Since Wycherley took over in 1996 we have spent 15 years in the 4th tier and one in the Conference. My argument is that during his reign we have programmed ourselves to accept that we are a 4th tier club punching above our weight. I don't accept this. Over the history of the club we have only spent 18 years in the 4th tier with two of those stays only lasting one season and once for two, all the other seasons are on him.
The way things are looking this season could well see us heading down again and I don't envision it being an easy task to bounce back up, if anything we're more likely to be struggling to stay in the 4th tier.
The club has had 40 different managers over our entire history since 1905, 18 of those have been in the last 28 years of Wycherley's reign, which tells me that either he doesn't actually have a very good recruitment record or that he has failed to back any of those managers financially and doomed them to fail.
In some respects Wycherley may have been good for the club, but in others his tenure has been mediocre at best. The sooner he sells up the better.
I worked our average league position since joining the football league to be 16th in tier 3. (not including this season) in the past 9 seasons we have averaged 15th in league 1 I do admire your attempt to throw more negativity on the clubs current situation though, its a shame you have no evidence to back that up thats sure to gain likes from some in the cold light of day, the 1950s , Arthur Rowley, 1979, the 80s , have long gone unless billions of pounds heads our way |
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Post by talkingoftheshrews on Oct 7, 2024 8:24:10 GMT 1
I agree that 'our level' is being a League One club.
However, without new investment, we will fall behind to fully being a league two club. There is a lot of money now in the EFL, and we are increasingly struggling to compete in League One.
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Post by dibblydobbly on Oct 7, 2024 8:37:44 GMT 1
I agree that 'our level' is being a League One club. However, without new investment, we will fall behind to fully being a league two club. There is a lot of money now in the EFL, and we are increasingly struggling to compete in League One. Not sure I entirely agree. The size of stadium, supporter base and average crowd level used to be major factors, and determine a level there or thereabouts, now it is about just how much cash the shareholders have. No-one disagrees that more cash from investment would help, but until that arrives those who are in that struggle doing the struggling day to day need all the help they can get. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2024 8:42:13 GMT 1
Just what is our level?
People on other threads have suggested that by being in the 3rd tier we are punching above and that in reality we are a 4th tier club. I dispute this, because for most of our history since the creation of the four tiers and moving from regional leagues we have been a 3rd tier club. Only once since making the old 3rd Division in 1960 did we drop down to the 4th and we came straight back up as runners up. John Bond failed to get us promoted at the first time of asking in 1993 and it cost him his job.
Since Wycherley took over in 1996 we have spent 15 years in the 4th tier and one in the Conference. My argument is that during his reign we have programmed ourselves to accept that we are a 4th tier club punching above our weight. I don't accept this. Over the history of the club we have only spent 18 years in the 4th tier with two of those stays only lasting one season and once for two, all the other seasons are on him.
The way things are looking this season could well see us heading down again and I don't envision it being an easy task to bounce back up, if anything we're more likely to be struggling to stay in the 4th tier.
The club has had 40 different managers over our entire history since 1905, 18 of those have been in the last 28 years of Wycherley's reign, which tells me that either he doesn't actually have a very good recruitment record or that he has failed to back any of those managers financially and doomed them to fail.
In some respects Wycherley may have been good for the club, but in others his tenure has been mediocre at best. The sooner he sells up the better.
I worked our average league position since joining the football league to be 16th in tier 3. (not including this season) in the past 9 seasons we have averaged 15th in league 1 I do admire your attempt to throw more negativity on the clubs current situation though, its a shame you have no evidence to back that up thats sure to gain likes from some in the cold light of day, the 1950s , Arthur Rowley, 1979, the 80s , have long gone unless billions of pounds heads our way What's the average over the last 28 years? I'll wait. |
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Post by mattmw on Oct 7, 2024 8:51:47 GMT 1
I think when judging our level it’s important to create a distinction between the Gay Meadow days and the New Meadow era.
I think as wonderful as the old ground was it always limited our ability to improve and expand the club, and so our average level over the time there was lower league one to mid table league 2
The move to the new ground gave us that step up to aspire to being a regular league one side, and with a bit of luck and good management achieve a few seasons in the Championship - which is what we’ve done or at least got close to
Think what the next few years will require is a review by the existing or new owners on what’s a realistic aspiration for the club
For me I’d say league one consistency is still achievable, but would like to see much more supporter and community involvement in the club to put it at the heart of the community, which I think has been lost a bit in the last ten years
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Oct 7, 2024 9:01:32 GMT 1
Mid 3rd tier is our level. Trouble is there is more money being thrown at football these days so its costing much more to sustain the level than it ever used to be.
Ie, its costing more and more even to stay at your normal level. If that money isnt forthcoming........
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Post by Pilch on Oct 7, 2024 9:28:28 GMT 1
I worked our average league position since joining the football league to be 16th in tier 3. (not including this season) in the past 9 seasons we have averaged 15th in league 1 I do admire your attempt to throw more negativity on the clubs current situation though, its a shame you have no evidence to back that up thats sure to gain likes from some in the cold light of day, the 1950s , Arthur Rowley, 1979, the 80s , have long gone unless billions of pounds heads our way What's the average over the last 28 years? I'll wait. Oh dear, hijacked your own thread 2nd post in to reveal the motive behind it ,( and that's not even the main motive ) 😳😳😳 Shall we add the Birmingham league into the stats and delve back to the Middle Ages and come up with a more realistic Average position for our club 🥳 If only we'd stuck with ray Bailey , we might be back in that league by now 😝 |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2024 12:29:39 GMT 1
Mid 3rd tier is our level. Trouble is there is more money being thrown at football these days so its costing much more to sustain the level than it ever used to be. Ie, its costing more and more even to stay at your normal level. If that money isnt forthcoming........ You've hit the nail squarely on the head. Without increased investment there is only one way our club is heading, sadly to say. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2024 12:51:52 GMT 1
If you stand still you’re going backwards. And as far as resourcing goes, we’re struggling to even stand still, so it’s no surprise we’re sinking.
Realistically, us and about 7/8 other teams are interchangeable with 7/8 teams in league two, if we went down we’d be by no means the biggest club in there, but we have to have aspirations of being a solid league one side.
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Post by Pilch on Oct 7, 2024 13:08:01 GMT 1
So on average once every decade we get relegated from the 3rd tier or lower , and once in a lifetime we get promoted to the 2nd tier , and every week we have a negative thread aimed at the current chairman who is trying to sell
So what's new ?
What's new is Fresh rumours of a new guy in the air but no one interested in that it seems
Some Just want to bash the current one a bit more
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Oct 7, 2024 13:21:59 GMT 1
Well we wont be told anything about the new guy who may / may not be interested. That's a certainty.
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Post by Pilch on Oct 7, 2024 13:31:06 GMT 1
Well we wont be told anything about the new guy who may / may not be interested. That's a certainty. Isn't that normal procedure ? Or is there something preventing potential buyers from making a statement ? |
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Post by belfastshrew on Oct 7, 2024 13:33:17 GMT 1
Neilsalop, I think you answered your own question in your opening post 👍
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Post by hectord0g137 on Oct 7, 2024 13:34:32 GMT 1
Feedo. I have just stood still in my garden.....I remained in place and did not go backwards however a snail 🐌 did go past me. Theirfore I get your point
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hankmaloysenior
Midland League Division One
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Post by hankmaloysenior on Oct 7, 2024 13:34:41 GMT 1
I doubt there's a more third tier team out there - this is absolutely our level. 55+ years of our 75 league years at this level and above. p**ses me off when people say we don't belong here.
One of our problems was that the worst period of our history coincided with the start of the Premier League, when football almost re-set in people's minds.
It's all relative of course, but I will never accept that we are a small club - we're a medium size club with a small club mentality, which is perpetuated by those at Salop as it keeps expectations down to an absolute minimum and eventually the fans believe it.
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Post by Pilch on Oct 7, 2024 13:42:49 GMT 1
Feedo. I have just stood still in my garden.....I remained in place and did not go backwards however a snail 🐌 did go past me. Theirfore I get your point Burton didn't stand still , they are in full reverse 😝 |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2024 13:43:53 GMT 1
55+ years of our 75 league years at this level and above. And I think that for that reason alone, many of our fans consider this our level. We are not a big fish but equally we are not a Morecambe or Accrington battling against the big boys for a couple of seasons before dropping back down the leagues to where we have historically been We know it's getting harder because of the finances but if we are honest, we've struggled to compete at this level for many seasons going as far back as 2012 when GT got us promoted, we needed additional investment and Roland couldn't or wouldn't do that and has not been able to attract any additional investment. That's not a criticism of him, just a fact. So whilst I do think this is our level in footballing terms, I'd say we are probably more like L2 level when it comes to finances, and that was even before our financial problems occured. |
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Post by kenwood on Oct 7, 2024 13:56:02 GMT 1
I can see a Darlington on the horizon.😉🤪
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Post by belfastshrew on Oct 7, 2024 14:12:04 GMT 1
Feedo. I have just stood still in my garden.....I remained in place and did not go backwards however a snail 🐌 did go past me. Theirfore I get your point Burton didn't stand still , they are in full reverse 😝 A point worth repeating...money does not guarantee success and certainly not instant success in Burtons case |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2024 14:54:08 GMT 1
Burton didn't stand still , they are in full reverse 😝 A point worth repeating...money does not guarantee success and certainly not instant success in Burtons case and Rome wasn't built in a day... But, if they are now financially stable and have the ongoing investment available then you would expect to see them progress as time goes by. Would it be any different for us should the club get new owners? |
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Post by dibblydobbly on Oct 7, 2024 14:57:17 GMT 1
Well we wont be told anything about the new guy who may / may not be interested. That's a certainty. Isn't that normal procedure ? Or is there something preventing potential buyers from making a statement ? Non-Disclosure is always part of a deal heads of terms on something this size. |
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Post by Pilch on Oct 7, 2024 15:14:01 GMT 1
Isn't that normal procedure ? Or is there something preventing potential buyers from making a statement ? Non-Disclosure is always part of a deal heads of terms on something this size. glad you answered that as some don't believe it's a thing at all and just expect updates Ps What can you tell us about the current deal ? 🤩🤩 |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2024 15:17:15 GMT 1
Isn't that normal procedure ? Or is there something preventing potential buyers from making a statement ? Non-Disclosure is always part of a deal heads of terms on something this size. Of course, you wouldn't expect anything else. |
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Post by dewsburyshrew on Oct 7, 2024 15:17:41 GMT 1
I have been thinking along these lines for some time. I have had no family reasons to return to Salop since about 1980, unfortunately. My time supporting tem spanned the last season in Div3 south to then. Once we were promoted into Div3 proper we almost always finished mid table without alarm. There were a couple of iffy seasons where away wins were rare, but then there was the almost great side from the mid sixties to the seventies, which should have been promoted. Finally of course there were 10 years in Div2.
I know that financially now is a different time to then, but properly run we should comfortably remain in Div3.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2024 15:26:50 GMT 1
For me I’d say league one consistency is still achievable, but would like to see much more supporter and community involvement in the club to put it at the heart of the community, which I think has been lost a bit in the last ten years I just wish we could replicate the level of support that clubs like Lincoln City & Mansfield Town achieve. How much of a community club are we, how can we draw in more support from the Town, the county, Mid Wales? Is this as good as it gets in terms of support? Would new owners bring in an upsurge in support, like we've seen across the border at Wrexham? Forgive all the questions by the way, I don't have the answers. |
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Post by Rusholme Ruffian on Oct 7, 2024 15:40:23 GMT 1
I agree that 'our level' is being a League One club. However, without new investment, we will fall behind to fully being a league two club. There is a lot of money now in the EFL, and we are increasingly struggling to compete in League One. Not sure I entirely agree. The size of stadium, supporter base and average crowd level used to be major factors, and determine a level there or thereabouts, now it is about just how much cash the shareholders have. No-one disagrees that more cash from investment would help, but until that arrives those who are in that struggle doing the struggling day to day need all the help they can get. Attendance wise and budget town arent at league one level. Last time I looked at towns attendance as a whole EFL, town averaged I think in the late 70s. Ie upper mid table in league two |
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Post by zenfootball on Oct 7, 2024 15:43:03 GMT 1
For me I’d say league one consistency is still achievable, but would like to see much more supporter and community involvement in the club to put it at the heart of the community, which I think has been lost a bit in the last ten years I just wish we could replicate the level of support that clubs like Lincoln City & Mansfield Town achieve. How much of a community club are we, how can we draw in more support from the Town, the county, Mid Wales? Is this as good as it gets in terms of support? Would new owners bring in an upsurge in support, like we've seen across the border at Wrexham? Forgive all the questions by the way, I don't have the answers. they are all the questions that need to be asked if we are to a vibrant and viable club. i thought the move to the present ground would be a catalyst for a stronger , sustainable club ,with a bigger influence in the community. whilst town do community projects. we need to get a lot more young people coming through the gate as they will be the future. |
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Post by Rusholme Ruffian on Oct 7, 2024 15:50:30 GMT 1
I think there is a bit of an issue with expectations of the size of the club being based on a different era.
Lots of clubs are above or below their 'level' based on the 90s but that doesn't mean they shouldnt be there.
You've got 3 clubs in Brentford, Bournemouth and Brighton who town were playing on a fairly regular basis 20 or so years ago. I would say they are now fairly stable Premier League sides and fully justified in being there because they are all well run clubs with money behind them.
Right now town are struggling league one club, and over recent times broadly that's where they've been. Can't see any argument to say they should be better, and arguably now for the size of the club in terms of budget and attendance they should be in the league below.
I wasn't around in the 80s or earlier so can't vouch for towns quality then but I'd argue it's more or less irrelevant to how a club should be doing now
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