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Post by vladimir on Apr 23, 2024 19:12:45 GMT 1
I saw more development in recruitment and the academy under Hursts control in his first spell than anything so far with a supposed specialist in place. Save some money, do away with Moore, bring in a head of recruitment, and let Hurst run all things football. What academy development did you see? Just had a look at the season records from Hurst's first spell here and I can't see a single player emerging from the academy during that period and doing well for the club. John McAtee and Ryan Barnett have done quite well since leaving but they had one sub appearance each when Hurst was here. Apart from them there's nothing. Hurst's successful team was based on solid experience (Ogogo, Whalley, Rodman, Sadler) and a few high quality young loanees (Henderson, Godfrey, Carlton Morris). Developing academy players for the first team didn't happen. That's not a particular criticism of Hurst - we haven't developed much from the academy for some time, which is why a DoF is a good idea. Moore might not be the right person, but I think it takes more than a single season under severe financial constraints to judge that properly. He was given no credit that I saw for us paying the second lowest amount to agents in the past year, but I would expect a DoF to be central to that. Allowing a manager who might be around for a couple of years to "run all things football" won't get us anywhere in the long run because he's always going to be looking out for his own job. He hasn't got time for strategic development. Mcatee and Barnet emerged under Hurst, no suprise flourished elsewhere after being released but they initially were brought into first team training and squad involvement by Hurst. I'd like to see Moore actually say what he has done this season besides hiring a dud manager, and some shoddy loans and recruitment. At the moment he feels like an expensive scout.
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Post by dachshund on Apr 23, 2024 19:32:04 GMT 1
Where’s the information coming from that to remove Moore we’d have to pay him off in full? He’s not a manager or a player - any standard employment contract permits the employer to let people go for poor performance. His contract may include such a clause - does anyone know or are we working from assumptions? What do you assume are the metrics for judging Moore's performance? I very much doubt that goals scored and final league position come into it (provided we didn't lose our League 1 status, which we haven't). Employment law, quite rightly, doesn't allow an employer to ditch someone with minimal compensation without objective evidence. As I've said elsewhere, Moore could point to the fact that the club paid less to agents than everyone else in the league except Carlisle, but we stayed up - for a club in our financial position that's a success. We were also playing catch up with recruitment because of the unravelling that happened in the spring and early summer last year. How's the academy shaping up? I don't know, too early to tell. The squad has struggled but what's new? All but two of our nine League 1 squads have struggled. It just seems to me premature and the worst kind of short-termism to ditch a new structure after less than a year. Do we really want to go back to putting everything on the manager, when the likelihood is that he'll be around for a year or two, probably three at most, and he'll either be building his CV for a bigger job or desperately clinging to this one? Employment law, rightly or wrongly, allows employers to release people with under 2 years service for pretty much any reason they choose and to pay only their notice period. Very, very unlikely there’s no protective clause here, of course.
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Post by Pilch on Apr 23, 2024 19:57:59 GMT 1
What do you assume are the metrics for judging Moore's performance? I very much doubt that goals scored and final league position come into it (provided we didn't lose our League 1 status, which we haven't). Employment law, quite rightly, doesn't allow an employer to ditch someone with minimal compensation without objective evidence. As I've said elsewhere, Moore could point to the fact that the club paid less to agents than everyone else in the league except Carlisle, but we stayed up - for a club in our financial position that's a success. We were also playing catch up with recruitment because of the unravelling that happened in the spring and early summer last year. How's the academy shaping up? I don't know, too early to tell. The squad has struggled but what's new? All but two of our nine League 1 squads have struggled. It just seems to me premature and the worst kind of short-termism to ditch a new structure after less than a year. Do we really want to go back to putting everything on the manager, when the likelihood is that he'll be around for a year or two, probably three at most, and he'll either be building his CV for a bigger job or desperately clinging to this one? Employment law, rightly or wrongly, allows employers to release people with under 2 years service for pretty much any reason they choose and to pay only their notice period. Very, very unlikely there’s no protective clause here, of course. not aimed at you, just adding to your post, quite often football fans suggest something without engaging their brain first, if MM was on a contract like almost all of us are, does anyone not consider RW would have given him a weeks/month/3months notice when PH arrived ? I do I'm still happy with him being here, lets forget January windows, they might as well not exist, but MM hasn't even had a fully summer window yet, and what he has had was severely hampered by existing contracts we stayed up which most fans didn't think was possible, and now we go again next season again will be a big task but we will find out a lot about MM next season personally I think it will be a massive struggle ( I've said that for 10 years running, id say the same no matter what the structure is ). but I think at this present time, we should congratulate the whole club for steering us through choppy waters and judge next season when its at a point where we can judge it, and not before
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Post by belfastshrew on Apr 23, 2024 20:21:54 GMT 1
I agree. This summer, when most of our squad is out of contract, is when MM will earn his corn
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Post by jamo on Apr 23, 2024 20:40:24 GMT 1
I agree. This summer, when most of our squad is out of contract, is when MM will earn his corn Or Not. Big risk to take given his record thus far. I hope you’re right. I don’t think you will be.
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 23, 2024 20:55:33 GMT 1
I agree. This summer, when most of our squad is out of contract, is when MM will earn his corn Or Not. Big risk to take given his record thus far. I hope you’re right. I don’t think you will be. He did of course have a previous record from 5 years at Cheltenham, but I doubt that will mean much to those who already want him out..
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Post by jamo on Apr 23, 2024 20:59:16 GMT 1
Or Not. Big risk to take given his record thus far. I hope you’re right. I don’t think you will be. He did of course have a previous record from 5 years at Cheltenham, but I doubt that will mean much to those who already want him out.. Oh yeah, Cheltenham, the Glory Years. Apologies , I should have factored that in before commenting
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Post by Pilch on Apr 23, 2024 20:59:47 GMT 1
we could always judge him now and make out his failed after succeeding
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Post by belfastshrew on Apr 23, 2024 21:02:02 GMT 1
You want to get rid of DoF role or just MM, Jamo? Managers are a dying breed, a backwards step to get rid of the DoF role. I wouldn't be against getting rid of MM...but he's basically had his hands financially tied since he came through the door. Not sure if anyone else could do much better with the resources available. End of June....when all those players on high wages leave...then MM has to start bringing the noise. I reserve judgement until Jan next year. That will give us time enough to see how his acquisitions have done. Unfair to say he is solely responsible too bear in mind.
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Post by Pilch on Apr 23, 2024 21:08:50 GMT 1
He did of course have a previous record from 5 years at Cheltenham, but I doubt that will mean much to those who already want him out.. Oh yeah, Cheltenham, the Glory Years. Apologies , I should have factored that in before commenting are you comparing Cheltenham with Man City ? I think his time last season their fans were over the moon
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Post by jamo on Apr 23, 2024 21:16:31 GMT 1
You want to get rid of DoF role or just MM, Jamo? Managers are a dying breed, a backwards step to get rid of the DoF role. I wouldn't be against getting rid of MM...but he's basically had his hands financially tied since he came through the door. Not sure if anyone else could do much better with the resources available. End of June....when all those players on high wages leave...then MM has to start bringing the noise. I reserve judgement until Jan next year. That will give us time enough to see how his acquisitions have done. Unfair to say he is solely responsible too bear in mind. I would give you an honest answer but it would undoubtedly be deleted, so I will keep it brief. MM has done absolutely nothing to inspire anyone’s confidence that he has a grip on his brief. And I yet remain to be convinced that a club of our stature( and our apparent financial purdah) can sustain a level of management that in every regards looks surplus to our needs.
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Post by Pilch on Apr 23, 2024 21:18:31 GMT 1
You want to get rid of DoF role or just MM, Jamo? Managers are a dying breed, a backwards step to get rid of the DoF role. I wouldn't be against getting rid of MM...but he's basically had his hands financially tied since he came through the door. Not sure if anyone else could do much better with the resources available. End of June....when all those players on high wages leave...then MM has to start bringing the noise. I reserve judgement until Jan next year. That will give us time enough to see how his acquisitions have done. Unfair to say he is solely responsible too bear in mind. I would give you an honest answer but it would undoubtedly be deleted, so I will keep it brief. MM has done absolutely nothing to inspire anyone’s confidence that he has a grip on his brief. And I yet remain to be convinced that a club of our stature( and our apparent financial purdah) can sustain a level of management that in every regards looks surplus to our needs. why not give him an honest answer instead of a dig at me ? go on I dare you ( it would make a refreshing change because thats all you do lately )
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Post by venceremos on Apr 23, 2024 21:26:23 GMT 1
What academy development did you see? Just had a look at the season records from Hurst's first spell here and I can't see a single player emerging from the academy during that period and doing well for the club. John McAtee and Ryan Barnett have done quite well since leaving but they had one sub appearance each when Hurst was here. Apart from them there's nothing. Hurst's successful team was based on solid experience (Ogogo, Whalley, Rodman, Sadler) and a few high quality young loanees (Henderson, Godfrey, Carlton Morris). Developing academy players for the first team didn't happen. That's not a particular criticism of Hurst - we haven't developed much from the academy for some time, which is why a DoF is a good idea. Moore might not be the right person, but I think it takes more than a single season under severe financial constraints to judge that properly. He was given no credit that I saw for us paying the second lowest amount to agents in the past year, but I would expect a DoF to be central to that. Allowing a manager who might be around for a couple of years to "run all things football" won't get us anywhere in the long run because he's always going to be looking out for his own job. He hasn't got time for strategic development. Mcatee and Barnet emerged under Hurst, no suprise flourished elsewhere after being released but they initially were brought into first team training and squad involvement by Hurst. I'd like to see Moore actually say what he has done this season besides hiring a dud manager, and some shoddy loans and recruitment. At the moment he feels like an expensive scout. You regard McAtee's one League 1 sub appearance (2016/17) and Barnett's one paintpot cup sub appearance (2017/18) as them "emerging under Hurst"? I'd set the bar for evidence of academy development a hell of a lot higher than that. Nobody in their right mind could argue that McAtee and Barnett were successful in their Salop careers. One of the acid tests for Moors will be whether any players emerge from the academy to be first team regulars here, or commend a substantial transfer fee. That's never going to be achievable in less than a year.
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Post by belfastshrew on Apr 23, 2024 21:28:03 GMT 1
I understand your fears Jamo. All we can be is positive. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Life as a Town fan 🤣
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Post by jamo on Apr 23, 2024 21:30:31 GMT 1
I understand your fears Jamo. All we can be is positive. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Life as a Town fan 🤣 That’s fair comment. I appreciate that mine is a minority view and I am happy to be proven wrong. I don’t think I will be but let’s see.
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Post by Pilch on Apr 23, 2024 21:31:22 GMT 1
as far as the academy goes, I remember MM being presumably smart enough to get Travis Hearns not only into the squad & starting line up but securing a new contract just before cashing in on him , had our previous guy been left to sort that out he's have been a free agent last summer and sign for nothing
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Post by belfastshrew on Apr 23, 2024 21:31:50 GMT 1
I understand your fears Jamo. All we can be is positive. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Life as a Town fan 🤣 That’s fair comment. I appreciate that mine is a minority view and I am happy to be proven wrong. I don’t think I will be but let’s see. If we do well next season will you give praise where it's due or would you still not be convinced of the management structure?
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Post by venceremos on Apr 23, 2024 21:35:09 GMT 1
He did of course have a previous record from 5 years at Cheltenham, but I doubt that will mean much to those who already want him out.. Oh yeah, Cheltenham, the Glory Years. Apologies , I should have factored that in before commenting 2020/21 League 2 champions (first ever championship in the EFL) 2021/22 15th League 1 2022/23 16th League 1 Not bad at all for one of League 1's smallest clubs. When I lived in Cheltenham in the 1980s, I watched them playing Fisher Athletic in a level below the current National League. That was their "natural" place for most of their history.
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Post by vladimir on Apr 23, 2024 21:38:38 GMT 1
Mcatee and Barnet emerged under Hurst, no suprise flourished elsewhere after being released but they initially were brought into first team training and squad involvement by Hurst. I'd like to see Moore actually say what he has done this season besides hiring a dud manager, and some shoddy loans and recruitment. At the moment he feels like an expensive scout. You regard McAtee's one League 1 sub appearance (2016/17) and Barnett's one paintpot cup sub appearance (2017/18) as them "emerging under Hurst"? I'd set the bar for evidence of academy development a hell of a lot higher than that. Nobody in their right mind could argue that McAtee and Barnett were successful in their Salop careers. One of the acid tests for Moors will be whether any players emerge from the academy to be first team regulars here, or commend a substantial transfer fee. That's never going to be achievable in less than a year. Yes I do, he was the one who promoted them up and got them involved in the first instance. Did the same with Shelis and Sears too. And I wasn't talking about them being successful in their salop careers. So as originally stated the academy saw a couple now established league pros be introduced under Hurst. One of them even followed hurst after he was inexplicably released by one of Hursts successors, and he's now balling at our level after making Grimsby a handsome sum. Hurst has a far better track record of academy development of footballers than Mickey Moore.
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Post by jamo on Apr 23, 2024 21:39:11 GMT 1
That’s fair comment. I appreciate that mine is a minority view and I am happy to be proven wrong. I don’t think I will be but let’s see. If we do well next season will you give praise where it's due or would you still not be convinced of the management structure? Well, I’m not sure I understand the premise of the question. As a Town fan I always want us to ‘do well’. It would be a bit weird if I didn’t. And yes, of course praise would be due if that was the case, but I strongly suspect that that praise would be aimed at Hurst and Doig. And of course these superb new player acquisitions that are undoubtedly going to arrive.
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Post by vladimir on Apr 23, 2024 21:40:16 GMT 1
as far as the academy goes, I remember MM being presumably smart enough to get Travis Hearns not only into the squad & starting line up but securing a new contract just before cashing in on him , had our previous guy been left to sort that out he's have been a free agent last summer and sign for nothing Cotterill was the one who initally gave Hernes his professional debut, he was also still under a youth contract contracted to the club over the summer.
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Post by Pilch on Apr 23, 2024 21:46:40 GMT 1
as far as the academy goes, I remember MM being presumably smart enough to get Travis Hearns not only into the squad & starting line up but securing a new contract just before cashing in on him , had our previous guy been left to sort that out he's have been a free agent last summer and sign for nothing Cotterill was the one who initally gave Hernes his professional debut, he was also still under a youth contract contracted to the club over the summer. you mean when he broke the pizza cup rules and fielded every other available player at the club, which included one travis hearns who came on as a late sub v wolves and scored, not to be seen again
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Post by belfastshrew on Apr 23, 2024 21:47:37 GMT 1
Anyone know Hursts contract? Is he actually with us next season? Or will a team from Suffolk pounce like a tramp on chips?
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Post by vladimir on Apr 23, 2024 21:47:55 GMT 1
Cotterill was the one who initally gave Hernes his professional debut, he was also still under a youth contract contracted to the club over the summer. you mean when he broke the pizza cup rules and fielded every other available player at the club, which included one travis hearns who came on as a late sub v wolves and scored, not to be seen again An appearance is an appearance. I also believe he was a regular at first team training.
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Post by Pilch on Apr 23, 2024 21:52:04 GMT 1
you mean when he broke the pizza cup rules and fielded every other available player at the club, which included one travis hearns who came on as a late sub v wolves and scored, not to be seen again An appearance is an appearance. I also believe he was a regular at first team training. wouldn't surprise me, otherwise there wasnt enough for 5 a side
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Post by venceremos on Apr 23, 2024 21:57:30 GMT 1
You regard McAtee's one League 1 sub appearance (2016/17) and Barnett's one paintpot cup sub appearance (2017/18) as them "emerging under Hurst"? I'd set the bar for evidence of academy development a hell of a lot higher than that. Nobody in their right mind could argue that McAtee and Barnett were successful in their Salop careers. One of the acid tests for Moors will be whether any players emerge from the academy to be first team regulars here, or commend a substantial transfer fee. That's never going to be achievable in less than a year. Yes I do, he was the one who promoted them up and got them involved in the first instance. Did the same with Shelis and Sears too. And I wasn't talking about them being successful in their salop careers. So as originally stated the academy saw a couple now established league pros be introduced under Hurst. One of them even followed hurst after he was inexplicably released by one of Hursts successors, and he's now balling at our level after making Grimsby a handsome sum. Hurst has a far better track record of academy development of footballers than Mickey Moore. Sears? No appearances under Hurst, loaned out to Newtown at the start of the 2017/18 season. Shelis? One start, one sub appearance, both in the paintpot cup. I wonder how many of us would regard any of these as players successfully developed at Shrewsbury Town by Hurst? What transfer fees did we get for these successful academy products? We're not a charity - if we don't get appearances and we don't get transfer fees, I don't regard that as academy success for the club. What makes you so sure Cheltenham didn't also have some single EFL Trophy sub appearance academy graduates during Moore's time there? After all, that seems to count as success in your book so it's only fair to compare like with like.
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Post by vladimir on Apr 23, 2024 22:28:22 GMT 1
Yes I do, he was the one who promoted them up and got them involved in the first instance. Did the same with Shelis and Sears too. And I wasn't talking about them being successful in their salop careers. So as originally stated the academy saw a couple now established league pros be introduced under Hurst. One of them even followed hurst after he was inexplicably released by one of Hursts successors, and he's now balling at our level after making Grimsby a handsome sum. Hurst has a far better track record of academy development of footballers than Mickey Moore. Sears? No appearances under Hurst, loaned out to Newtown at the start of the 2017/18 season. Shelis? One start, one sub appearance, both in the paintpot cup. I wonder how many of us would regard any of these as players successfully developed at Shrewsbury Town by Hurst? What transfer fees did we get for these successful academy products? We're not a charity - if we don't get appearances and we don't get transfer fees, I don't regard that as academy success for the club. What makes you so sure Cheltenham didn't also have some single EFL Trophy sub appearance academy graduates during Moore's time there? After all, that seems to count as success in your book so it's only fair to compare like with like. I don't think I'm sticking my neck out by trusting Paul Hurst to run the football side in terms of recruitment (with a head of recruitment per last time) and bring on youth players and involve them in training. He certainly got it right with Mcatee albeit not with us. Moores first full season has been dire, the entire blueprint ripped up after a few months. We don't need both as the OP suggests and I'm in full agreement.
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Post by venceremos on Apr 23, 2024 22:33:39 GMT 1
Sears? No appearances under Hurst, loaned out to Newtown at the start of the 2017/18 season. Shelis? One start, one sub appearance, both in the paintpot cup. I wonder how many of us would regard any of these as players successfully developed at Shrewsbury Town by Hurst? What transfer fees did we get for these successful academy products? We're not a charity - if we don't get appearances and we don't get transfer fees, I don't regard that as academy success for the club. What makes you so sure Cheltenham didn't also have some single EFL Trophy sub appearance academy graduates during Moore's time there? After all, that seems to count as success in your book so it's only fair to compare like with like. I don't think I'm sticking my neck out by trusting Paul Hurst to run the football side in terms of recruitment (with a head of recruitment per last time) and bring on youth players and involve them in training. He certainly got it right with Mcatee albeit not with us. Moores first full season has been dire, the entire blueprint ripped up after a few months. We don't need both as the OP suggests and I'm in full agreement. Who says the entire blueprint's been ripped up?
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Post by ProudSalopian on Apr 24, 2024 12:32:44 GMT 1
I agree that Moore should probably be given more time, however disagree that it's too early to judge him. By is own words, there are 3 areas he is responsible for:
Manager Recruitment - Taylor was a disaster and as has been pointed out, Hurst had a worse record than Taylor so his first two appointments could not be considered a success
Player Recruitment - Largely a disaster. The 7 loans contributed very little and the same goes for the 3 Irish lads who we spent money on. The philosophy is young players we can develop who will go on to make a profit for us, there's very of them who fit the bill
Academy - This is certainly too early to judge because I expect very few people (if any) are qualified to talk about what he has done to the academy and the impacts of that
Ultimately us debating about Moore will not have any influence on what happens this summer. It will be interesting to see if Roland ends the new approach and goes back to the standard one with Hurst controlling everything, I really wouldn't be surprised
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 24, 2024 14:17:07 GMT 1
Regarding a certain strategy being thrown out of the window whenever a coach is replaced, I hope you're not suggesting that having a DoF avoids, or even minimises this scenario. Surely this season is case in point? Wasn't the message at the start of the season that we were going to continue with the formation that us to 12th last season and recruit with that in mind? Yet doesn't Hurst prefer something different? So we have already moved on from one strategy to another this season. Which might well mean players that were specifically targeted may now become spare parts and we have to look elsewhere. After what we have seen this season I don't want us hiring a manager because he might be able fit into some structure (we saw how successful that was this season). I want us to get the best manager available and let him do his thing (without any restrictions and without any limitations placed upon by some structure ordained by some DOF or another).
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