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Post by vladimir on Apr 21, 2024 18:17:05 GMT 1
I saw more development in recruitment and the academy under Hursts control in his first spell than anything so far with a supposed specialist in place. Save some money, do away with Moore, bring in a head of recruitment, and let Hurst run all things football. So how does paying off Moore and bringing in someone else on a tidy wage save money ? All for a wild gamble I'm going to assume that someone like Adam Henshall would earn a lot less money than sacking Mickey Moore, than continuing to pay Mickey Moore for continued mediocrity. Also it's not a "wild gamble" it's the structure that was in place during our most successful season in a generation..
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blueboy48
Midland League Division Two
Posts: 167
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Post by blueboy48 on Apr 21, 2024 18:48:41 GMT 1
I believe 18no clubs in our League have a DoF.
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Post by Pilch on Apr 21, 2024 19:03:50 GMT 1
So how does paying off Moore and bringing in someone else on a tidy wage save money ? All for a wild gamble I'm going to assume that someone like Adam Henshall would earn a lot less money than sacking Mickey Moore, than continuing to pay Mickey Moore for continued mediocrity. Also it's not a "wild gamble" it's the structure that was in place during our most successful season in a generation.. I get it , you'd sack Moore , have to pay him off in full , using a chunk of next seasons budget doing so , and then pay another guy to come in and do a lesser job , sorry if I questioned it still would like to know how its cheaper and better ? lol
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Post by servernaside on Apr 21, 2024 19:39:46 GMT 1
Plenty of comments on here, but no-one has so far answered my question. What exactly is the DoF’s job description? Maybe no-one does know. If that is the case, how can it be considered a key position in the club hierarchy? I had an attempt Trying to avoid a situation where the manager / coach 'scarpers' isn't a job description. As for using the term, 'structure' it's just another meaningless managerspeak term.....I'm sure MT used it frequently in his team pep talks.
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Post by Mortgagehound on Apr 21, 2024 20:54:54 GMT 1
I am confident that Mr Hurst has the necessary testicles required
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 21, 2024 22:29:14 GMT 1
Certainly a lot of balls in this thread. We have a Director of Football, Hurst is happy to work with him, Steve C wasn't. So, there's a view of let's upset the applecart and go back to where we were - the system that got us into too many players under one manager and too few under another. At best those comments are naive and at worst completely disingenuous. ‘Hurst is happy to work with him’ just maybe as a result of the fact that he was parachuted into a football club 2/3rds of the way through a season, where that football club was in complete free fall with a playing squad that was not up to the job, unfit for the playing demands expected and lacking in any tactical ability whatsoever. When he came, he had no choice. He does now. Are you suggesting we just throw in the towel on a DofF less than a year in? That's as laughable as the "Roland has to sell" line when there isn't a suitable buyer on the horizon.
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Post by Pilch on Apr 21, 2024 23:11:20 GMT 1
Trying to avoid a situation where the manager / coach 'scarpers' isn't a job description. As for using the term, 'structure' it's just another meaningless managerspeak term.....I'm sure MT used it frequently in his team pep talks. but I think I gave a decent description of what he does, why not chase up MM explaining that question himself, he did just that in January on the town site
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 21, 2024 23:12:08 GMT 1
For me, 'Director of Football' is a nonsense job. What does it actually entail that the head coach/manager cannot do along with his assistant? It's surely only about identifying talent at other clubs and in the case of this season, identifying the lack thereof within the existing squad. (Most of us could do the latter in about five minutes...........and without a fancy salary) If the head coach quite rightly has the final say on who is brought in....or at least approached, then why not let him do the whole job anyway. I would be grateful if anyone could post the current " director of Football' detailed Job Description. I like a good chuckle. Let's start with the obvious: "One of the primary tasks of a Director of Football is to identify and recruit players who can enhance the team's performance. They work closely with scouts and the club's management to spot potential targets, negotiate transfers, and secure player contracts".
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Post by Pilch on Apr 21, 2024 23:13:35 GMT 1
I am confident that Mr Hurst has the necessary testicles required I hate to think what this thread would have been called had our head coach been a female.
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Post by jamo on Apr 22, 2024 9:19:38 GMT 1
At best those comments are naive and at worst completely disingenuous. ‘Hurst is happy to work with him’ just maybe as a result of the fact that he was parachuted into a football club 2/3rds of the way through a season, where that football club was in complete free fall with a playing squad that was not up to the job, unfit for the playing demands expected and lacking in any tactical ability whatsoever. When he came, he had no choice. He does now. Are you suggesting we just throw in the towel on a DofF less than a year in? That's as laughable as the "Roland has to sell" line when there isn't a suitable buyer on the horizon. Actually, yes I am. It is clearly not working so why not take the decision to get rid of it. Even more so when you factor in that the supporting structure that was all part of the new ‘management package’ has collapsed so spectacularly. As for the suitable buyer comment, we are all entitled to our views. Mine is that there are two different interested parties looking to take on the club, if that happens then the issue of suitability will remain to be seen. Myself personally would welcome the opportunity to find out because I sure as hell think we have a totally unsuitable owner at the moment.
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Post by Pilch on Apr 22, 2024 9:41:17 GMT 1
Are you suggesting we just throw in the towel on a DofF less than a year in? That's as laughable as the "Roland has to sell" line when there isn't a suitable buyer on the horizon. Actually, yes I am. It is clearly not working so why not take the decision to get rid of it. Even more so when you factor in that the supporting structure that was all part of the new ‘management package’ has collapsed so spectacularly. As for the suitable buyer comment, we are all entitled to our views. Mine is that there are two different interested parties looking to take on the club, if that happens then the issue of suitability will remain to be seen. Myself personally would welcome the opportunity to find out because I sure as hell think we have a totally unsuitable owner at the moment. re we are all entitled to our views ? I wish you'd allow me to have mine as for yours last week it was a strong rumour today its just a view I suspected that all along
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Post by servernaside on Apr 22, 2024 10:11:11 GMT 1
For me, 'Director of Football' is a nonsense job. What does it actually entail that the head coach/manager cannot do along with his assistant? It's surely only about identifying talent at other clubs and in the case of this season, identifying the lack thereof within the existing squad. (Most of us could do the latter in about five minutes...........and without a fancy salary) If the head coach quite rightly has the final say on who is brought in....or at least approached, then why not let him do the whole job anyway. I would be grateful if anyone could post the current " director of Football' detailed Job Description. I like a good chuckle. Let's start with the obvious: "One of the primary tasks of a Director of Football is to identify and recruit players who can enhance the team's performance. They work closely with scouts and the club's management to spot potential targets, negotiate transfers, and secure player contracts".
So, a glorified scout then. Could not PH or CD perform this task?
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 22, 2024 11:06:36 GMT 1
Let's start with the obvious: "One of the primary tasks of a Director of Football is to identify and recruit players who can enhance the team's performance. They work closely with scouts and the club's management to spot potential targets, negotiate transfers, and secure player contracts".
So, a glorified scout then. Could not PH or CD perform this task? Imagine the scenario: A potential new investor knocks on the door, they want to speak to our CEO and Director of Football to discuss the club's strategy.
"Oh, we don't have a DofF"
"Well who does the work a DofF would do then?"
"We share that out between the manager and the scouts, like we have always done"
"You've changed managers quite a lot, does the strategy get thrown out of the window each time?"
"Urmm, yes"
"Who does the discussion with agents, contract negotiation, the signing process"
"Liam, I suppose, if he's not too busy with managing club initiatives"
"This all sounds unprofessional to me, I'm out".
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Apr 22, 2024 11:51:05 GMT 1
Running a football club is so much more complex these days and a DoF is an important part of the management team who gives the head coach time and freedom to concentrate on football.
I’m sure coaches are relieved not to have to deal with agents, contact negotiations, overseeing a network of scouts etc.
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Apr 22, 2024 12:05:32 GMT 1
Running a football club is so much more complex these days and a DoF is an important part of the management team who gives the head coach time and freedom to concentrate on football. I’m sure coaches are relieved not to have to deal with agents, contact negotiations, overseeing a network of scouts etc. Oh for the old days with the bench consisting of the manager, the sub (No 12) and a bloke with a bag of water and a sponge.
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Post by sheltonsalopian on Apr 22, 2024 12:09:57 GMT 1
Although I think many of his signings have been misses I'd still be inclined to keep him. He's been here a year now, knows the club better, has had a few months to work with Hurst and knows how he wants to play.
And to be fair to him he'd been given a brief of: We have no money, we need some players who will potentially have resale value so they should be young with potential, oh and we need to stay in league one.
Let's see how he fares with a more forgiving landscape.
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Post by vladimir on Apr 22, 2024 12:18:09 GMT 1
So, a glorified scout then. Could not PH or CD perform this task? Imagine the scenario: A potential new investor knocks on the door, they want to speak to our CEO and Director of Football to discuss the club's strategy.
"Oh, we don't have a DofF"
"Well who does the work a DofF would do then?"
"We share that out between the manager and the scouts, like we have always done"
"You've changed managers quite a lot, does the strategy get thrown out of the window each time?"
"Urmm, yes"
"Who does the discussion with agents, contract negotiation, the signing process"
"Liam, I suppose, if he's not too busy with managing club initiatives"
"This all sounds unprofessional to me, I'm out".
Quite the hypothesised scenario you've invented in your own head there and then decided to post it to the public.
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Post by dachshund on Apr 22, 2024 12:32:41 GMT 1
Where’s the information coming from that to remove Moore we’d have to pay him off in full?
He’s not a manager or a player - any standard employment contract permits the employer to let people go for poor performance.
His contract may include such a clause - does anyone know or are we working from assumptions?
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Post by dachshund on Apr 22, 2024 12:33:29 GMT 1
So, a glorified scout then. Could not PH or CD perform this task? Imagine the scenario: A potential new investor knocks on the door, they want to speak to our CEO and Director of Football to discuss the club's strategy.
"Oh, we don't have a DofF"
"Well who does the work a DofF would do then?"
"We share that out between the manager and the scouts, like we have always done"
"You've changed managers quite a lot, does the strategy get thrown out of the window each time?"
"Urmm, yes"
"Who does the discussion with agents, contract negotiation, the signing process"
"Liam, I suppose, if he's not too busy with managing club initiatives"
"This all sounds unprofessional to me, I'm out".
This investor has never worked or taken any interest in football by the sounds.
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 22, 2024 12:41:45 GMT 1
Imagine the scenario: A potential new investor knocks on the door, they want to speak to our CEO and Director of Football to discuss the club's strategy. "Oh, we don't have a DofF" "Well who does the work a DofF would do then?" "We share that out between the manager and the scouts, like we have always done" "You've changed managers quite a lot, does the strategy get thrown out of the window each time?" "Urmm, yes"
"Who does the discussion with agents, contract negotiation, the signing process" "Liam, I suppose, if he's not too busy with managing club initiatives" "This all sounds unprofessional to me, I'm out".
Quite the hypothesised scenario you've invented in your own head there and then decided to post it to the public. Yes, just like everyone else does.
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 22, 2024 12:46:31 GMT 1
Imagine the scenario: A potential new investor knocks on the door, they want to speak to our CEO and Director of Football to discuss the club's strategy.
"Oh, we don't have a DofF"
"Well who does the work a DofF would do then?"
"We share that out between the manager and the scouts, like we have always done"
"You've changed managers quite a lot, does the strategy get thrown out of the window each time?"
"Urmm, yes"
"Who does the discussion with agents, contract negotiation, the signing process"
"Liam, I suppose, if he's not too busy with managing club initiatives"
"This all sounds unprofessional to me, I'm out".
This investor has never worked or taken any interest in football by the sounds. Since investors these days seem to be of the Rob and Ryan variety you may well be right.
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Post by servernaside on Apr 23, 2024 16:48:29 GMT 1
So, a glorified scout then. Could not PH or CD perform this task? Imagine the scenario: A potential new investor knocks on the door, they want to speak to our CEO and Director of Football to discuss the club's strategy.
"Oh, we don't have a DofF"
"Well who does the work a DofF would do then?"
"We share that out between the manager and the scouts, like we have always done"
"You've changed managers quite a lot, does the strategy get thrown out of the window each time?"
"Urmm, yes"
"Who does the discussion with agents, contract negotiation, the signing process"
"Liam, I suppose, if he's not too busy with managing club initiatives"
"This all sounds unprofessional to me, I'm out".
It would seem to me that most 'investors in football' these days are not only ignorant of the game, but also ignorant of this country. As for a potential investor requiring to see a club structure involving a DoF, they wouldn't know what it was if they fell over it. Regarding a certain strategy being thrown out of the window whenever a coach is replaced, I hope you're not suggesting that having a DoF avoids, or even minimises this scenario.
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 23, 2024 17:21:24 GMT 1
Imagine the scenario: A potential new investor knocks on the door, they want to speak to our CEO and Director of Football to discuss the club's strategy.
"Oh, we don't have a DofF"
"Well who does the work a DofF would do then?"
"We share that out between the manager and the scouts, like we have always done"
"You've changed managers quite a lot, does the strategy get thrown out of the window each time?"
"Urmm, yes"
"Who does the discussion with agents, contract negotiation, the signing process"
"Liam, I suppose, if he's not too busy with managing club initiatives"
"This all sounds unprofessional to me, I'm out".
It would seem to me that most 'investors in football' these days are not only ignorant of the game, but also ignorant of this country. As for a potential investor requiring to see a club structure involving a DoF, they wouldn't know what it was if they fell over it. Regarding a certain strategy being thrown out of the window whenever a coach is replaced, I hope you're not suggesting that having a DoF avoids, or even minimises this scenario. Potential investors with no knowledge of Great Britain would, I assume, do their homework, for example check what other foreign owned clubs had in place.
Looking at our recent managers, we had one with a scattergun approach to signing players, one with a minimalist in numbers, but maybe max in wages approach. I'm anticipating a DofF moderates those extremes in the first place. Too many on the books and some loan outs might have to be arranged, but there should always be enough to fill the subs bench.
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Post by Pilch on Apr 23, 2024 17:39:40 GMT 1
Where’s the information coming from that to remove Moore we’d have to pay him off in full? He’s not a manager or a player - any standard employment contract permits the employer to let people go for poor performance. His contract may include such a clause - does anyone know or are we working from assumptions? are you suggesting we poached him from a comfortable job elsewhere to take up a job where we can give him a weeks notice and bus fair home ? ;-) back in January he said dont judge me now, judge me in 3 years, take that to mean what you like as for assumptions, football fans are like that, after all we're going down this season
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Post by servernaside on Apr 23, 2024 17:45:57 GMT 1
It would seem to me that most 'investors in football' these days are not only ignorant of the game, but also ignorant of this country. As for a potential investor requiring to see a club structure involving a DoF, they wouldn't know what it was if they fell over it. Regarding a certain strategy being thrown out of the window whenever a coach is replaced, I hope you're not suggesting that having a DoF avoids, or even minimises this scenario. Potential investors with no knowledge of Great Britain would, I assume, do their homework, for example check what other foreign owned clubs had in place.
Looking at our recent managers, we had one with a scattergun approach to signing players, one with a minimalist in numbers, but maybe max in wages approach. I'm anticipating a DofF moderates those extremes in the first place. Too many on the books and some loan outs might have to be arranged, but there should always be enough to fill the subs bench.
It all depends upon the quality of the DoF I suppose. There seem to be quite a few on this website questioning the ability of the current incumbent at STFC. It's like life and business in general, you can have the optimum structure, but if the personnel occupying the various positions are not up to the mark, then it's a complete waste of time.
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Post by davycrockett on Apr 23, 2024 18:01:14 GMT 1
Think we have to remember Micky Moore was appointed half way through May when pretty well no work had been done on recruitment for this season. Initially he had to look at recruiting a Head Coach which till the end of June giving them 5/6 weeks to recruit a team for this season.
Not ideal and not Micky Moores fault. The caliber of the head coach is another subject but Moores had all season to prepare the groundwork for next and the managers in place to get players in so I’d have though we’re going to be better prepared when the players return for pre season.
Looking forward to it more than I was this time last year for sure.
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Post by Pilch on Apr 23, 2024 18:19:15 GMT 1
Potential investors with no knowledge of Great Britain would, I assume, do their homework, for example check what other foreign owned clubs had in place.
Looking at our recent managers, we had one with a scattergun approach to signing players, one with a minimalist in numbers, but maybe max in wages approach. I'm anticipating a DofF moderates those extremes in the first place. Too many on the books and some loan outs might have to be arranged, but there should always be enough to fill the subs bench.
It all depends upon the quality of the DoF I suppose. There seem to be quite a few on this website questioning the ability of the current incumbent at STFC. It's like life and business in general, you can have the optimum structure, but if the personnel occupying the various positions are not up to the mark, then it's a complete waste of time. Last time we didn't have a director of football the manager after 3 transfer windows managed to finish 18th The current guy has had less than 2 so far that's progress to me
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Post by venceremos on Apr 23, 2024 18:27:57 GMT 1
I saw more development in recruitment and the academy under Hursts control in his first spell than anything so far with a supposed specialist in place. Save some money, do away with Moore, bring in a head of recruitment, and let Hurst run all things football. What academy development did you see? Just had a look at the season records from Hurst's first spell here and I can't see a single player emerging from the academy during that period and doing well for the club. John McAtee and Ryan Barnett have done quite well since leaving but they had one sub appearance each when Hurst was here. Apart from them there's nothing. Hurst's successful team was based on solid experience (Ogogo, Whalley, Rodman, Sadler) and a few high quality young loanees (Henderson, Godfrey, Carlton Morris). Developing academy players for the first team didn't happen. That's not a particular criticism of Hurst - we haven't developed much from the academy for some time, which is why a DoF is a good idea. Moore might not be the right person, but I think it takes more than a single season under severe financial constraints to judge that properly. He was given no credit that I saw for us paying the second lowest amount to agents in the past year, but I would expect a DoF to be central to that. Allowing a manager who might be around for a couple of years to "run all things football" won't get us anywhere in the long run because he's always going to be looking out for his own job. He hasn't got time for strategic development.
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Post by venceremos on Apr 23, 2024 18:41:59 GMT 1
Where’s the information coming from that to remove Moore we’d have to pay him off in full? He’s not a manager or a player - any standard employment contract permits the employer to let people go for poor performance. His contract may include such a clause - does anyone know or are we working from assumptions? What do you assume are the metrics for judging Moore's performance? I very much doubt that goals scored and final league position come into it (provided we didn't lose our League 1 status, which we haven't). Employment law, quite rightly, doesn't allow an employer to ditch someone with minimal compensation without objective evidence. As I've said elsewhere, Moore could point to the fact that the club paid less to agents than everyone else in the league except Carlisle, but we stayed up - for a club in our financial position that's a success. We were also playing catch up with recruitment because of the unravelling that happened in the spring and early summer last year. How's the academy shaping up? I don't know, too early to tell. The squad has struggled but what's new? All but two of our nine League 1 squads have struggled. It just seems to me premature and the worst kind of short-termism to ditch a new structure after less than a year. Do we really want to go back to putting everything on the manager, when the likelihood is that he'll be around for a year or two, probably three at most, and he'll either be building his CV for a bigger job or desperately clinging to this one?
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 23, 2024 19:00:46 GMT 1
That takes the pressure off for next Saturday, perhaps we can enjoy going to the Meadow for once this season. I never really thought we would go down once Taylor was let go mainly because of the poor form of others below us but it’s nice to have it confirmed. Hurst has shown some nouse and commitment since he returned but now he really needs to grow a pair and be very clear with the Chairman ( or whoever replaces him) on how he expects the playing side of the club should be set up and that it is him alone that chooses and selects the playing squad. He will never be in a stronger position to do so. The original post. Would it be fair to assume Steve C "grew a pair" and said he didn't want to work with a DofF? Result, bye bye Steve. Hurst is lucky to have a job, very lucky that job is at a league 1 club. If the Chairman wants a DofF, Hurst gets on and gives it his best. No DofF is going to be daft enough to not work very closely with Hurst to try to enable, within budget, Hurst getting the playing squad he thinks he needs.
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