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Post by Pilch on Jan 17, 2024 23:59:15 GMT 1
I think this has been the case for 12 months Wrong. in your biased anti roland opinion ?
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Post by martinshrew on Jan 18, 2024 8:10:39 GMT 1
Would it be a fair assumption that the fans are actually bankrolling the club, not the chairman?
There's a train of thought that RW will get discounted shares for lending the club money, which he'll get back when the Premier League money lands? Meanwhile fans will likely be paying £400+ for season tickets.
An interesting possibility and something to ponder ...
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Post by Valerioch on Jan 18, 2024 8:25:55 GMT 1
Would it be a fair assumption that the fans are actually bankrolling the club, not the chairman? There's a train of thought that RW will get discounted shares for lending the club money, which he'll get back when the Premier League money lands? Meanwhile fans will likely be paying £400+ for season tickets. An interesting possibility and something to ponder ... Exactly - also as I’ve said before, like we the fans bank rolled the club during Covid I doubt I’m the only fan who left the club money on their 19/20 season ticket, and bought a 20/21 season ticket as an effective donation to the club. It works out at £400 across both seasons that I gifted the club If even 1,000 fans did the same, that’s £400k of fans charitable donations apparently gone? And we’re expected to pay probably another £400 for next season soon? Absolutely disgusting…
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Post by martinshrew on Jan 18, 2024 8:35:25 GMT 1
Would it be a fair assumption that the fans are actually bankrolling the club, not the chairman? There's a train of thought that RW will get discounted shares for lending the club money, which he'll get back when the Premier League money lands? Meanwhile fans will likely be paying £400+ for season tickets. An interesting possibility and something to ponder ... Exactly - also as I’ve said before, like we the fans bank rolled the club during Covid I doubt I’m the only fan who left the club money on their 19/20 season ticket, and bought a 20/21 season ticket as an effective donation to the club. It works out at £400 across both seasons that I gifted the club If even 1,000 fans did the same, that’s £400k of fans charitable donations apparently gone? And we’re expected to pay probably another £400 for next season soon? Absolutely disgusting… The disgusting part is the chairman playing it off as some vanity event in his name when: - Financials have gone tits up under him. - Another of his senior appointments have shafted us. - He'll take back out everything he's lending. - He'll make a fortune off the club when he sells. The fans deserve lauding for constantly and in the main blindly following the club no matter what, we deserve so much more!
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Post by Valerioch on Jan 18, 2024 8:41:25 GMT 1
Exactly - also as I’ve said before, like we the fans bank rolled the club during Covid I doubt I’m the only fan who left the club money on their 19/20 season ticket, and bought a 20/21 season ticket as an effective donation to the club. It works out at £400 across both seasons that I gifted the club If even 1,000 fans did the same, that’s £400k of fans charitable donations apparently gone? And we’re expected to pay probably another £400 for next season soon? Absolutely disgusting… The disgusting part is the chairman playing it off as some vanity event in his name when: - Financials have gone tits up under him. - Another of his senior appointments have shafted us. - He'll take back out everything he's lending. - He'll make a fortune off the club when he sells. The fans deserve lauding for constantly and in the main blindly following the club no matter what, we deserve so much more! Feels like many fans are at breaking point, christ I even saw Biz say he’d have to think about renewing if there’s another price increase - he’s far from the only one but that’s alarming to see I keep saying the next few months are crucial in the clubs modern history - preserving League 1 football and getting new ownership / investment is now the only way to get bored, dissolutioned, apathetic fans back on side
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Post by FloreatShrew on Jan 18, 2024 8:49:39 GMT 1
If it's true that Paul Delves has left, which I believe it is, you have to ask why. That's another investor on the board who's walked. And yet it's now us having to make up the shortfall.
I don't mean the few 100k's here and there they're now looking to get in. No one with serious money or experience seems to stay.
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Post by shrewdshrewssupporter on Jan 18, 2024 9:09:52 GMT 1
Exactly - also as I’ve said before, like we the fans bank rolled the club during Covid I doubt I’m the only fan who left the club money on their 19/20 season ticket, and bought a 20/21 season ticket as an effective donation to the club. It works out at £400 across both seasons that I gifted the club If even 1,000 fans did the same, that’s £400k of fans charitable donations apparently gone? And we’re expected to pay probably another £400 for next season soon? Absolutely disgusting… The disgusting part is the chairman playing it off as some vanity event in his name when: - Financials have gone tits up under him. - Another of his senior appointments have shafted us. - He'll take back out everything he's lending. - He'll make a fortune off the club when he sells. The fans deserve lauding for constantly and in the main blindly following the club no matter what, we deserve so much more! Without passing comment on the cost of tickets and general decisions, I'd like to clear a little bit up on the financial side. You have referred to two methods with which RW could be financing the club, share issuance or lending. Share issuance will dilute his ownership and that of other shareholders with no method to recoup the money he has put into the club, other than through sale. There is no guarantee that a sale will recoup this either - the overall valuation of the club will not necessarily change, just the percentage which the chairman owns. It would be required that existing shareholders be offered a chance to purchase new shares if they are being issued, so as to allow them to avoid their ownership being diluted. I imagine that any shareholder would prefer that their share be diluted than the club run out of money and their holdings diminish in value to zero. With regards to a loan, he will get repaid. With or without interest, but likely at a more favourable rate than a bank would provide. Perhaps the communication of 'bankrolling' the club is sensationalist (unless the money provided is deemed a gift), but there is no reason that he should not receive his money back. Upon sale he will undoubtedly make a profit. This is not something I have too many qualms with either. When he bought the club, there was the real possibility of extinction and that any money spent would not be recovered. Since then he has (generally) improved the viability of the business through the increase in assets (stadium) and ability to generate turnover, at the same time as establishing us as a League One team. I'm not sure if his whole tenure has seen him unpaid as a director, but if he has then there is even less reason to begrudge him for growing the club as a business and profiting from the sale. Selling for any lower than a fair valuation would open us up to resale to irresponsible owners for profit. Or leaving some of the sale money as a gift to the club would mean the new owner again would have the opportunity to resell for higher value. Undoubtedly the sum he receives will be diminished by the current financial instability and he will feel some financial punishment for his appointment of Steve.
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Post by martinshrew on Jan 18, 2024 9:13:24 GMT 1
If it's true that Paul Delves has left, which I believe it is, you have to ask why. That's another investor on the board who's walked. And yet it's now us having to make up the shortfall. I don't mean the few 100k's here and there they're now looking to get in. No one with serious money or experience seems to stay. Who is the common denominator? Roland.
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Post by Exkeeper on Jan 18, 2024 9:38:32 GMT 1
I am sure we are all grateful to RW and anyone else who helps our club through difficult times but surely we can’t continue along this path indefinitely. The club has to either live within it’s means to whatever level that takes us to or attract wealthy investors who are prepared to bankroll an ambitious plan to take us higher in the leagues, rather than the inevitable tumble with inferior players that the first option will bring. I know some people say that it is preferable to slide down the pyramid than to “do a Bury”. Fine if those people are happy watching us play in front of Telfordesque crowds of 1500 but that does not appeal to me.
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Post by Feedo Gnasher on Jan 18, 2024 9:48:29 GMT 1
The club has to either live within it’s means to whatever level that takes us to Problem is, if we (we being the club) decide that league two is our natural level and more sustainable due to reduced wages, it’ll also bring with it reduced ticket and merchandising income, reduced hospitality income reduced sponsorship, reduced likelihood of prize money from cup runs etc. Before you know it you’ve gone from treading water in league one to the exact same scenario in league two. Many a club has been relegated from a division, rebuilt and galvanised and gone straight back up in a stronger position. But also for many a club a relegation has started a slow and painful descent. I’m sure, and I bloody hope I’m right that everyone within the club are desperate for us to retain our league one status.
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Post by davycrockett on Jan 18, 2024 9:48:38 GMT 1
Can kind of understand Wycherley putting his own money into the club due to his long association and him being the owner. Seems very generous of Duncan Montgomery to be doing it too considering he's new to the board, and wouldnt see him as being responsible for any past issues that have seen the £1.6 million we had in the bank in April 2022 disapper No mention of Paul Delves also having to put his hand in his pocket. Perhaps he's not willing to? There was a question last night asking if he’d resigned, it wasn’t answered, sort if laughed off without the laugh……
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Post by davycrockett on Jan 18, 2024 10:00:23 GMT 1
Would it be a fair assumption that the fans are actually bankrolling the club, not the chairman? There's a train of thought that RW will get discounted shares for lending the club money, which he'll get back when the Premier League money lands? Meanwhile fans will likely be paying £400+ for season tickets. An interesting possibility and something to ponder ... You’ve just stated what football fan's do all over the country at all clubs. And a Chairman who don’t take an income ‘ lending’ money to their clubs a positive would you rather we didn’t pay the wages…I'm not a Roland fan but he’s not the one putting it out there, it was a direct question from fan's that was answered somewhat reluctantly.
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Post by ProudSalopian on Jan 18, 2024 10:05:35 GMT 1
Sorry to labour the point but I'm really struggling to get my head around the position of the club financially.
It's fair to assume that Cotterill/Caldwell massively overspent last year and the reserves were gone, if we carried on then we would build up huge debts so Roland stepped in
Moore has been saying we are now ok and budget is a sustainable one. If that is the case, why are the board personally having to finance the club to keep it afloat?
I was speaking with Ollie Westbury on Twitter pointing out that it was his article in September where Moore said the budget was sustainable. And yet here we are. He's acknowledged there are some inconsistencies.
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Post by davycrockett on Jan 18, 2024 10:07:41 GMT 1
I am sure we are all grateful to RW and anyone else who helps our club through difficult times but surely we can’t continue along this path indefinitely. The club has to either live within it’s means to whatever level that takes us to or attract wealthy investors who are prepared to bankroll an ambitious plan to take us higher in the leagues, rather than the inevitable tumble with inferior players that the first option will bring. I know some people say that it is preferable to slide down the pyramid than to “do a Bury”. Fine if those people are happy watching us play in front of Telfordesque crowds of 1500 but that does not appeal to me. Thats why the clubs for sale and we’re currently talking to two potential buyers. Ive watched worse football supporting Shrewsbury ( probably many seasons) and we’ve been in worse positions /runs, can’t you remember seasons where we only won 1/2 away games? Im sure you’ll be at Peterborough but don’t expect to watch Brazil.
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Post by ProudSalopian on Jan 18, 2024 10:19:31 GMT 1
Thats why the clubs for sale and we’re currently talking to two potential buyers. The wording last night was we were speaking to two 'investors', I that to mean two people people investing/joining the board as opposed to buying the club
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Post by Exkeeper on Jan 18, 2024 10:23:32 GMT 1
I am sure we are all grateful to RW and anyone else who helps our club through difficult times but surely we can’t continue along this path indefinitely. The club has to either live within it’s means to whatever level that takes us to or attract wealthy investors who are prepared to bankroll an ambitious plan to take us higher in the leagues, rather than the inevitable tumble with inferior players that the first option will bring. I know some people say that it is preferable to slide down the pyramid than to “do a Bury”. Fine if those people are happy watching us play in front of Telfordesque crowds of 1500 but that does not appeal to me. Thats why the clubs for sale and we’re currently talking to two potential buyers. Ive watched worse football supporting Shrewsbury ( probably many seasons) and we’ve been in worse positions /runs, can’t you remember seasons where we only won 1/2 away games? Im sure you’ll be at Peterborough but don’t expect to watch Brazil. Yes, I have seen some rubbish over the years and stood in a few crowds under 3000 at the Meadow, but when you see what clubs with a bit of ambition/investment can do, it make you wish for some of the same. Yes, we are supposedly talking to interested parties but we have been there before and the drawback allegedly is, as before, that the current owner does not wish to relinquish control. I have known many seasons where our away wins are in low single figures and unfortunately this one is following a similar pattern. The average football fan would much prefer to see a game finish 5-4 as opposed to 1-0 but I know that coaches hold the opposite view.
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Post by darkshrew on Jan 18, 2024 10:34:48 GMT 1
If Roland has put any cash into the club in the form of a loan or buying shares it will be shown in the financial statements.
If he has been buying 'discounted' shares it would not dilute his % holding - basic maths tells you that if you increase the numerator at the same rate as the denominator then the value cannot fall. I doubt that he has done this as it would look even dodgier than his full value sale of the training ground to the club the day after the council's development plan confirmed that he could not sell it for houses.
I would suggest that anybody who thinks that Roland has ever, or will ever, do anything that is in the interest of the club at the expense of his own personal interest does not know him.
Sadly I think that Roland's refusal to sell up at 'decent' valuations in pursuit of his top valuation will end up damaging the club.
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Post by martinshrew on Jan 18, 2024 10:44:44 GMT 1
Thats why the clubs for sale and we’re currently talking to two potential buyers. The wording last night was we were speaking to two 'investors', I that to mean two people people investing/joining the board as opposed to buying the club I'd be absolutely devastated if this was the case. I'm hoping to return to the meadow as a regular under new ownership ASAP.
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Post by davycrockett on Jan 18, 2024 10:48:10 GMT 1
Sorry to labour the point but I'm really struggling to get my head around the position of the club financially. It's fair to assume that Cotterill/Caldwell massively overspent last year and the reserves were gone, if we carried on then we would build up huge debts so Roland stepped in Moore has been saying we are now ok and budget is a sustainable one. If that is the case, why are the board personally having to finance the club to keep it afloat? I was speaking with Ollie Westbury on Twitter pointing out that it was his article in September where Moore said the budget was sustainable. and yet we are. He's acknowledged there are some inconsistencies. Moores only talking about the playing budget, how about after significant losses during Covid and the continued losses during SCs spending spree Roland’s pushing the budget to try and maintain the team but cash flows a problem with less received from the Prem than hoped for?
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Post by ProudSalopian on Jan 18, 2024 11:22:47 GMT 1
Moores only talking about the playing budget, how about after significant losses during Covid and the continued losses during SCs spending spree Roland’s pushing the budget to try and maintain the team but cash flows a problem with less received from the Prem than hoped for? You say ' Moores only talking about the playing budget' but that is our biggest outgoing so I can't see how we can say that the budget is sustainable whilst Roland is personally financing the club. I understand that the because of covid and Cotterill our reserves have been wiped out. My (naive) assumption was the steps made last summer meant that the club were now heading in the right direction financially and whilst funds would be tight, we were out of danger. However that isn't the case.
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Post by vladimir on Jan 18, 2024 11:45:36 GMT 1
If we are in such s**t financial state why have we not sold an asset yet?
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Post by shrewdshrewssupporter on Jan 18, 2024 11:45:44 GMT 1
If Roland has put any cash into the club in the form of a loan or buying shares it will be shown in the financial statements. If he has been buying 'discounted' shares it would not dilute his % holding - basic maths tells you that if you increase the numerator at the same rate as the denominator then the value cannot fall. I doubt that he has done this as it would look even dodgier than his full value sale of the training ground to the club the day after the council's development plan confirmed that he could not sell it for houses. I would suggest that anybody who thinks that Roland has ever, or will ever, do anything that is in the interest of the club at the expense of his own personal interest does not know him. Sadly I think that Roland's refusal to sell up at 'decent' valuations in pursuit of his top valuation will end up damaging the club. You are correct here, buying shares would not dilute his shareholding, it would dilute that of other shareholders. Though, those shareholders would first have the right to purchase the new shares, it will be their choice if they do not and RW's holding increases. The Financial Statements will shed light on this, but there is certainly no guarantee of financial gain from injecting cash this way.
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Post by akpaakpost on Jan 18, 2024 11:47:12 GMT 1
If we are in such s**t financial state why have we not sold an asset yet? If you’re on about the playing squad. Probably because they’re either s**t themselves or are going for free in the summer.
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Post by darkshrew on Jan 18, 2024 12:09:39 GMT 1
If Roland has put any cash into the club in the form of a loan or buying shares it will be shown in the financial statements. If he has been buying 'discounted' shares it would not dilute his % holding - basic maths tells you that if you increase the numerator at the same rate as the denominator then the value cannot fall. I doubt that he has done this as it would look even dodgier than his full value sale of the training ground to the club the day after the council's development plan confirmed that he could not sell it for houses. I would suggest that anybody who thinks that Roland has ever, or will ever, do anything that is in the interest of the club at the expense of his own personal interest does not know him. Sadly I think that Roland's refusal to sell up at 'decent' valuations in pursuit of his top valuation will end up damaging the club. You are correct here, buying shares would not dilute his shareholding, it would dilute that of other shareholders. Though, those shareholders would first have the right to purchase the new shares, it will be their choice if they do not and RW's holding increases. The Financial Statements will shed light on this, but there is certainly no guarantee of financial gain from injecting cash this way. Not sure that the minority shareholders have any pre-emptive right to purchase authorised but unallocated shares - that would require an unusual and restrictive company set up. From memory there were quite a few authorised but unallocated shares and their use in the past suggests that is for the company to sell them to who they choose (or not) and there is (as would be the norm) no offer made to the existing shareholders to take up the newly allocated shares. As I mention - I do not think he would do this as the optics are not great; but let's see.
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Post by tarporleyblue on Jan 18, 2024 12:26:11 GMT 1
If season ticket prices are going up for 2024/25 then I wonder if the same will apply to the pay on the day prices?
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Post by davycrockett on Jan 18, 2024 12:47:14 GMT 1
If we are in such s**t financial state why have we not sold an asset yet? Talking of assets The club own the plot of land to the left of the entrance (The mound with the next game sign on it). It’s bigger than it looks and not really of any benefit to the club now. It was separated into another company (STFC2017?) when Lidl was being built but may have a value to someone like Starbucks with all the development. Just a thought 🤔
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Post by ProudSalopian on Jan 18, 2024 12:55:16 GMT 1
If season ticket prices are going up for 2024/25 then I wonder if the same will apply to the pay on the day prices? You'd assume so, otherwise the ST's are going to be even less attractive
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Post by shrewdshrewssupporter on Jan 18, 2024 13:00:56 GMT 1
You are correct here, buying shares would not dilute his shareholding, it would dilute that of other shareholders. Though, those shareholders would first have the right to purchase the new shares, it will be their choice if they do not and RW's holding increases. The Financial Statements will shed light on this, but there is certainly no guarantee of financial gain from injecting cash this way. Not sure that the minority shareholders have any pre-emptive right to purchase authorised but unallocated shares - that would require an unusual and restrictive company set up. From memory there were quite a few authorised but unallocated shares and their use in the past suggests that is for the company to sell them to who they choose (or not) and there is (as would be the norm) no offer made to the existing shareholders to take up the newly allocated shares. As I mention - I do not think he would do this as the optics are not great; but let's see. If that is the case, then fair point!
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Post by dibblydobbly on Jan 18, 2024 13:32:29 GMT 1
The disgusting part is the chairman playing it off as some vanity event in his name when: - Financials have gone tits up under him. - Another of his senior appointments have shafted us. - He'll take back out everything he's lending. - He'll make a fortune off the club when he sells. The fans deserve lauding for constantly and in the main blindly following the club no matter what, we deserve so much more! Without passing comment on the cost of tickets and general decisions, I'd like to clear a little bit up on the financial side. You have referred to two methods with which RW could be financing the club, share issuance or lending. Share issuance will dilute his ownership and that of other shareholders with no method to recoup the money he has put into the club, other than through sale. There is no guarantee that a sale will recoup this either - the overall valuation of the club will not necessarily change, just the percentage which the chairman owns. It would be required that existing shareholders be offered a chance to purchase new shares if they are being issued, so as to allow them to avoid their ownership being diluted. I imagine that any shareholder would prefer that their share be diluted than the club run out of money and their holdings diminish in value to zero. With regards to a loan, he will get repaid. With or without interest, but likely at a more favourable rate than a bank would provide. Perhaps the communication of 'bankrolling' the club is sensationalist (unless the money provided is deemed a gift), but there is no reason that he should not receive his money back. Upon sale he will undoubtedly make a profit. This is not something I have too many qualms with either. When he bought the club, there was the real possibility of extinction and that any money spent would not be recovered. Since then he has (generally) improved the viability of the business through the increase in assets (stadium) and ability to generate turnover, at the same time as establishing us as a League One team. I'm not sure if his whole tenure has seen him unpaid as a director, but if he has then there is even less reason to begrudge him for growing the club as a business and profiting from the sale. Selling for any lower than a fair valuation would open us up to resale to irresponsible owners for profit. Or leaving some of the sale money as a gift to the club would mean the new owner again would have the opportunity to resell for higher value. Undoubtedly the sum he receives will be diminished by the current financial instability and he will feel some financial punishment for his appointment of Steve. Appreciate your analysis - checking the public accounts going back, no he has not taken a salary, it would be disclosed.
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Post by Pilch on Jan 18, 2024 14:32:17 GMT 1
If we are in such s**t financial state why have we not sold an asset yet? because we are paying them championship wages and only league one or 2 sides want them , hey marko , come and sign for us , we'll give you less than half of what you are on let's take obrien , might be our top earner , we are paying at least 25% of his wages , confirmed last night , I asked Also confirmed some of our players are on 3 times the wages of team mates , agreed it's not good but declined to say if it caused a problem as he didn't know , I think that's a polite answer to avoid opening a can of worms but this is the legacy we've been left with and won't change until next season
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