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Post by neilsalop on Jun 26, 2020 11:10:26 GMT 1
Whataboutery?
I asked you a question? Should zero tolerance be to anti-Semitism which I accept or zero tolerance to critism of the Israeli government and security forces?
You seem to have missed it.
I am an athiest and hold all religion in equal contempt. Does that make me an anti-Semite?
You listed examples with nothing to do with the matter we're talking about. None of those countries have been now linked to the killing of blacks in America. It's zero tolerance to anti semitism. Which that article was pushing. So because I am against the human rights abuses, illegal settlements and flat out murders by the Israeli state I am not being anti-Semitic?
Just needed to clear this up.
Yes I did list other examples of human rights abusing governments as counterpoints to your call for zero-tolerance to anti-Semitism. If we stand up to one, we should stand up to all or are we just going to pick and choose which people should be protected from tyrants and their regimes?
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Jun 26, 2020 11:19:45 GMT 1
Bold move by Keir, one I completely agree with as well. You've got the left of the party up in arms but they never cared about elect-ability if it affected the purity of the party. Sometimes you have to make tough decisions to appeal to the wider part of the electorate and showing no sign of weakness on antisemitism means it can no longer be used as a slur against Labour. Keir and his advisers are a completely different political beast compared to Corbyn (Who I voted for) and his teams. Going to make for a very interesting 2024 election. I think you’ve got this right, Starmer is faced by the dilemma of every Labour leader which is what is the point of being a pure socialist when the majority of the electorate are conservative minded and you’ll be condemned to permanent opposition. A family member who follows these things closely from a Momentum position explained the politics behind Long-Bailey’s position to me. It reminded me of the old religious arguments about the number of angels that could dance on the head of a pin. My guess is that Starmer’s action will look decisive and honest and will compare well with the party in power.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 11:31:35 GMT 1
Bold move by Keir, one I completely agree with as well. You've got the left of the party up in arms but they never cared about elect-ability if it affected the purity of the party. Sometimes you have to make tough decisions to appeal to the wider part of the electorate and showing no sign of weakness on antisemitism means it can no longer be used as a slur against Labour. Keir and his advisers are a completely different political beast compared to Corbyn (Who I voted for) and his teams. Going to make for a very interesting 2024 election. I think you’ve got this right, Starmer is faced by the dilemma of every Labour leader which is what is the point of being a pure socialist when the majority of the electorate are conservative minded and you’ll be condemned to permanent opposition. A family member who follows these things closely from a Momentum position explained the politics behind Long-Bailey’s position to me. It reminded me of the old religious arguments about the number of angels that could dance on the head of a pin. My guess is that Starmer’s action will look decisive and honest and will compare well with the party in power. I think this depends on Starmer's long game. By this I mean, the UK could end up with a pre-2015 Labour Party that many people perceive to be 'Tory light', or he could be a serious Social Democrat. If the latter, the press, and many others, won't have that. The former involves a lot of 'dog whistling' and rank hypocrisy.
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Jun 26, 2020 11:57:43 GMT 1
Nick, if the Tory government is still positioned as it is now then Tory lite could look attractive in 4 years time.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 12:15:55 GMT 1
Nick, if the Tory government is still positioned as it is now then Tory lite could look attractive in 4 years time. Fair point. But, Starmer needs to consider why 'Momentum' was needed in the first place and whether he can find a place in the Party for them in the longer term.
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Post by FloreatShrew on Jun 26, 2020 12:42:39 GMT 1
You listed examples with nothing to do with the matter we're talking about. None of those countries have been now linked to the killing of blacks in America. It's zero tolerance to anti semitism. Which that article was pushing. So because I am against the human rights abuses, illegal settlements and flat out murders by the Israeli state I am not being anti-Semitic?
Just needed to clear this up.
Yes I did list other examples of human rights abusing governments as counterpoints to your call for zero-tolerance to anti-Semitism. If we stand up to one, we should stand up to all or are we just going to pick and choose which people should be protected from tyrants and their regimes?
Yes you're not being anti Semitic. We should and do challenge other states, it is however if we only mention Israel and seemingly blame the deaths in America on them.
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Post by martinshrew on Jun 26, 2020 12:48:01 GMT 1
I think you’ve got this right, Starmer is faced by the dilemma of every Labour leader which is what is the point of being a pure socialist when the majority of the electorate are conservative minded and you’ll be condemned to permanent opposition. A family member who follows these things closely from a Momentum position explained the politics behind Long-Bailey’s position to me. It reminded me of the old religious arguments about the number of angels that could dance on the head of a pin. My guess is that Starmer’s action will look decisive and honest and will compare well with the party in power. I think this depends on Starmer's long game. By this I mean, the UK could end up with a pre-2015 Labour Party that many people perceive to be 'Tory light', or he could be a serious Social Democrat. If the latter, the press, and many others, won't have that. The former involves a lot of 'dog whistling' and rank hypocrisy. Socialism has been voted down time and time again. A left of centre position would be a good move by Starmer and would win back a good % of working voters. If he allows the party to stay as far left as Jezza it they'll be voted down again.
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Post by neilsalop on Jun 26, 2020 12:53:59 GMT 1
So because I am against the human rights abuses, illegal settlements and flat out murders by the Israeli state I am not being anti-Semitic?
Just needed to clear this up.
Yes I did list other examples of human rights abusing governments as counterpoints to your call for zero-tolerance to anti-Semitism. If we stand up to one, we should stand up to all or are we just going to pick and choose which people should be protected from tyrants and their regimes?
Yes you're not being anti Semitic. We should and do challenge other states, it is however if we only mention Israel and seemingly blame the deaths in America on them. Oh, I don't only mention Israel. I have quite often criticised the murderous scumbags of Saudi Arabia, in fact probably more often than I have criticised the human rights abusing land grabbers of Israel.
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Post by martinshrew on Jun 26, 2020 13:27:03 GMT 1
Yes you're not being anti Semitic. We should and do challenge other states, it is however if we only mention Israel and seemingly blame the deaths in America on them. Oh, I don't only mention Israel. I have quite often criticised the murderous scumbags of Saudi Arabia, in fact probably more often than I have criticised the human rights abusing land grabbers of Israel. "English first, British second, European NEVER!!!!"
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Post by neilsalop on Jun 26, 2020 14:07:58 GMT 1
Oh, I don't only mention Israel. I have quite often criticised the murderous scumbags of Saudi Arabia, in fact probably more often than I have criticised the human rights abusing land grabbers of Israel. "English first, British second, European NEVER!!!!" Good memory apart from I'm sure it was Salopian first. I'm sure I've mentioned it before, but I'll say it again for those in the cheap seats. I used to be a bigoted tw@; racist, homophobic, sexist, the full works. If I can change, anyone can.
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Post by returnofthehype on Jun 26, 2020 15:17:27 GMT 1
"English first, British second, European NEVER!!!!" Good memory apart from I'm sure it was Salopian first. I'm sure I've mentioned it before, but I'll say it again for those in the cheap seats. I used to be a bigoted tw@; racist, homophobic, sexist, the full works. If I can change, anyone can. Please change back, because you have turned into a first class terrorist sympathising pudding.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 16:21:53 GMT 1
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 26, 2020 17:24:19 GMT 1
I don't think anyone has denied or would deny (either the US, Israel or anyone else for that matter) that police forces from around the world come together to collaborate with each other. The issue here is that Peake specifically talks about "...tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.” and whether there is any proof of that, proof that that statement is correct (for starters, even in the article itself, the Israelis state that “there is no tactic or protocol that calls to put pressure on the neck or airway”)... Does Israel train America’s police forces?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 18:49:06 GMT 1
/photo/3
Well, let's hope these blokes were disciplined then....
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 18:59:23 GMT 1
More interesting stuff about the close links between US law enforcement and Israel. www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/joint-us-israel-police-and-law-enforcement-training"A diverse group of 52 law enforcement officers from 12 U.S. states visited Israel and participated in joint training sessions with their Israeli counterparts during September 2017. This program, known as the Police Unity Tour, has been held periodically since 1997." It's not much of a stretch that this training has filtered down to other police forces in the US. Sharing of best practice and all that.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 26, 2020 18:59:41 GMT 1
Yes. Lets.
But completely irrelevant to the statement Peake made unless there is some proof that this tactic was indeed adapted by the police in the USA as a result of training by Israeli police.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 19:05:09 GMT 1
Hardly irrelevant seeing as the Israelis denied using these tactics and yet there they are...
But, ok back to the point.
What Peake said has nothing to do with anti-Semitism.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 19:20:51 GMT 1
As someone in Long Bailey’s position , Shadow Education Secretary , surely she should have known better . Her mate Maxine Peake comes out with utter ballocks , L-B decides , without thinking , to share the article which , in Starmers view , has antisemetic conspiracy theories in it and the damage has been done . L-B then says she did not endorse all aspects of the article which makes me think , well , which part didn’t she agree with and why ? Once you’ve got to that point then you surely start to ask a few more questions . To my mind L-B obviously didn’t realise , shall we say “forgot “ , that Corbyn ,McDonnell et al are no longer in charge of the Labour Party . Previously she would have got away with it but times have changed . Is Starmer making his mark ? Of course he is , no matter what Momentum thinks he is calling the tune. Labour under the previous leadership did **** all about antisemitism . Perhaps if they had taken more of a stand Labour wouldn’t have to deal with this type of situation . Personnally the thought of L-B as leader of the Labour Party leaves me cold . Thank goodness it didn’t happen .
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 26, 2020 19:24:57 GMT 1
The Israelis stated that “there is no tactic or protocol that calls to put pressure on the neck or airway”. Whether individuals then go on to use that method independently is then on the individual police officer. It isn't something they have been trained to do or told to do. They it upon themselves to do it. Just like that police officer in the US who murdered Floyd. So it is irrelevant if the Israelis do not train their police to use such tactics. Because if it is not a tactic that is taught within the Israeli police then clearly it would not have been taught to anyone within the US police when they look to collaborate. Unless people are suggesting the Israelis are training US police in tactics that they do not train their own police.
As already mentioned within this thread, the problem is that Peake stated something that, as far as we know, is false and in addition, some are continually picking Israel out for attention and criticism. And when they are constantly singling out Israel for criticism and ignoring things elsewhere, people will obviously question why. Why Israel, what makes them so different.
I'm as willing and happy to have a dig at Israel as much as the next man. It was this topic and reading Chomsky that really changed the way I look at the world. There is plenty to be critical about. But when some people are obsessed with Palestine and Israel and yet ignore problems occurring elsewhere in the world, then people will question why it is Israel that is singled out. That's what the article shared by Welshpool is getting at.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 21:36:08 GMT 1
The article is utter BS.
Being critical of Israel all the time doesn't make a person anti-Semitic.
I have contantly criticised the Saudi's sponsorship of terrorism, so I must be an Islamapobe.
People who are critical of BLM all the time must be racist.
And so on.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 26, 2020 22:22:30 GMT 1
Clearly some people just don't get it and never will.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Jun 27, 2020 0:26:26 GMT 1
I defintely get it.
RLB retweeted an article from a mainstream newspaper's website that was an interview with a famous constituent and a member of the Labour Party. That article contaned an inaccuracy that the newspaper didn't spot BUT RLB was supposed to. The nature of the inaccuracy is interesting: the IDF and Minnesota police have both been photographed using the same restraint. A branch of the Israeli government has trained American policemen. It seems that it has trained police from Minnesota too. That the training includes this particular restraint has been denied. And that seems to be the extent of the inaccuracy.
The suggestion - the ridiculous suggestion - is that RLB needed to have read the whole article and tested the veracity of the points it contains. No reasonable person acting reasonably and in good faith would seriously suggest that this is what needs to be done. And you know this because of the treatment of an MP who is not on the left of the party.
Several weeks ago Rachel Reeves wrote a seven tweet thread celebrating Mary Astor, the first woman to sit s an MP, without mentioning her rabid anti-semitism and support for Adlof Hitler and the Nazis. The result: no outcry. Not a dickie bird.
So yes I do get it. Thank you very much.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2020 6:57:02 GMT 1
Clearly some people just don't get it and never will. Your usual condescending and patronising self. This will be the end of my engagement with you.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 27, 2020 7:05:36 GMT 1
Clearly some people just don't get it and never will. Your usual condescending and patronising self. Well I'm in good company there aren't I.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2020 7:08:55 GMT 1
Several weeks ago Rachel Reeves wrote a seven tweet thread celebrating Mary Astor, the first woman to sit s an MP, without mentioning her rabid anti-semitism and support for Adlof Hitler and the Nazis. The result: no outcry. Not a dickie bird. I was going to mention this last night, but I thought I would be flogging a dead horse. I will say too that the Minnesota police may not have been trained directly by the Israelis, but that's not to say someone trained by the Israelis could have trained them. Of course, it may just be pure coincidence that Chauvin killed by Floyd by using the same method of restraint as used on the photos I posted.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 27, 2020 7:15:19 GMT 1
Unless there is some specific proof available that proves that this statement is true, that the "...tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.” then Peake isn't criticizing Israel, she is just peddling some conspiracy. I mean I was talking about the Israeli police above but Peake actually talks about the "secret service", whether to give it a further sinister undertone, who knows.
Just checking the article again now and the Independent have included the following...
UPDATE (25.06.20): This article has been amended to further clarify that the allegation that US police were taught tactics of “neck kneeling” by Israeli secret services is unfounded. The original version did carry a denial from Israeli police, however we are happy to further clarify the matter.
Within that article Peake talks about fascists, dictators, getting rid of capitalism, the Israeli secret service and has a pop at those who turned away from Labour because of Corbyn. I mean its all there isn't it. She doesn't come across very well at all. Long-Bailey should have known better and should have stayed well clear.
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Post by neilsalop on Jun 27, 2020 7:15:41 GMT 1
Good memory apart from I'm sure it was Salopian first. I'm sure I've mentioned it before, but I'll say it again for those in the cheap seats. I used to be a bigoted tw@; racist, homophobic, sexist, the full works. If I can change, anyone can. Please change back, because you have turned into a first class terrorist sympathising pudding. Perhaps you should look to your own party for terrorist sympathisers. Oh sorry, that should be actual terrorists.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2020 7:27:40 GMT 1
Please change back, because you have turned into a first class terrorist sympathising pudding. Perhaps you should look to your own party for terrorist sympathisers. Oh sorry, that should be actual terrorists.
Ex-IRA, if I remember. I wonder if Corbyn sat down and talked to her....
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Post by Valerioch on Jun 27, 2020 7:29:51 GMT 1
Please change back, because you have turned into a first class terrorist sympathising pudding. Perhaps you should look to your own party for terrorist sympathisers. Oh sorry, that should be actual terrorists.
As I called out on the Brixton thread (and got duly ignored I wonder why...!) the usual suspects using their tactic of “two wrongs make a right” to try and defend blatant anti semitism in the Labour Party. Embarrassing really
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Post by Valerioch on Jun 27, 2020 7:36:32 GMT 1
Good memory apart from I'm sure it was Salopian first. I'm sure I've mentioned it before, but I'll say it again for those in the cheap seats. I used to be a bigoted tw@; racist, homophobic, sexist, the full works. If I can change, anyone can. Please change back, because you have turned into a first class terrorist sympathising pudding. Careful what you say, threads have been deleted for less recently...
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