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Post by shrewder on Dec 17, 2019 13:01:00 GMT 1
Going to stir the pot again here but I've just noticed the pound has gone back to the exact levels it was at before the exit poll - looks like it was just a sugar rush and not a long term thing That's due to Johnson's proposed legislation making a no-deal Brexit more likely. Been a great start, record A&E waiting times, unelected cabinet members and further restrictions to workers rights on the table. Merry Christmas! Oh, and a Russian billionaire newspaper owner holding a party in Johnson's honour. Thank god the establishment has fallen and the British working class is back in control! Yes the penny is beginning to drop as to what the electorate have done. The nightmare begins👹
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Post by shrewsace on Dec 17, 2019 13:11:52 GMT 1
Imagine if a Russian billionaire newspaper owner had appointed Ed Balls as editor, supported Corbyn's campaign and thrown a party in honour of his election victory.
The Tory supporters would be frothing at the mouth and going into overdrive with red scare rhetoric.
But change Balls for Osborne, Corbyn for Johnson and you won't hear a peep!
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Post by venceremos on Dec 17, 2019 13:45:11 GMT 1
Going to stir the pot again here but I've just noticed the pound has gone back to the exact levels it was at before the exit poll - looks like it was just a sugar rush and not a long term thing That's due to Johnson's proposed legislation making a no-deal Brexit more likely. Been a great start, record A&E waiting times, unelected cabinet members and further restrictions to workers rights on the table. Merry Christmas! Oh, and a Russian billionaire newspaper owner holding a party in Johnson's honour. Thank god the establishment has fallen and the British working class is back in control! I look forward to BBC News checking back in a year or so with those two Conservative-voting zero hours contract workers living in a Burnley bedsit they were interviewing last night. I genuinely hope their economic wellbeing will have greatly improved. Equally genuinely, I very much doubt it will. The spin doctors played a blinder and persuaded enough people that the Tories hadn't already been in government for almost a decade, amongst other things.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 13:46:37 GMT 1
Imagine if a Russian billionaire newspaper owner had appointed Ed Balls as editor, supported Corbyn's campaign and thrown a party in honour of his election victory. The Tory supporters would be frothing at the mouth and going into overdrive with red scare rhetoric. But change Balls for Osborne, Corbyn for Johnson and you won't hear a peep! There are several wild ideas in that scenario but the largest of all is that JC could have won a general election.
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GE 2019
Dec 17, 2019 13:48:11 GMT 1
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Post by salop27 on Dec 17, 2019 13:48:11 GMT 1
The poll at the top of the page merely shows how out of touch and extremist many of the posters on this site actually are. Or perhaps the majority are under 45 who again voted in this election against the Tories !!! You Gov have released the voting age info for this election and Conservatives hold the advantage from the age of 40 upwards now. A big change from 2017 election.
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Post by SouthStandShrew on Dec 17, 2019 13:58:04 GMT 1
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GE 2019
Dec 17, 2019 14:16:55 GMT 1
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Post by shrewsace on Dec 17, 2019 14:16:55 GMT 1
Imagine if a Russian billionaire newspaper owner had appointed Ed Balls as editor, supported Corbyn's campaign and thrown a party in honour of his election victory. The Tory supporters would be frothing at the mouth and going into overdrive with red scare rhetoric. But change Balls for Osborne, Corbyn for Johnson and you won't hear a peep! There are several wild ideas in that scenario but the largest of all is that JC could have won a general election. Well done on tapping that one into an open goal. Point on double standards/cognitive dissonance/mental gymnastics still stands, though.
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Post by TheFoz on Dec 17, 2019 15:11:38 GMT 1
Only problem is Burnham isn’t an MP, so would need a by election to get him in. I personally think he would be the best person for the job. I’d also look at Dan Jarvis, Keir Starmer or Yvette Cooper. Appointing Long-Bailey would be a disaster for the party. Same case for Jess Phillips, who I absolutely can not stand.
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GE 2019
Dec 17, 2019 15:58:33 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 15:58:33 GMT 1
Or perhaps the majority are under 45 who again voted in this election against the Tories !!! You Gov have released the voting age info for this election and Conservatives hold the advantage from the age of 40 upwards now. A big change from 2017 election. Ashcroft polls have it up to 44 but You Gov, who don't differentiate up to 44, actually mirrors the referendum.
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GE 2019
Dec 17, 2019 17:02:08 GMT 1
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Post by SouthStandShrew on Dec 17, 2019 17:02:08 GMT 1
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Post by venceremos on Dec 17, 2019 17:25:20 GMT 1
Or perhaps the majority are under 45 who again voted in this election against the Tories !!! You Gov have released the voting age info for this election and Conservatives hold the advantage from the age of 40 upwards now. A big change from 2017 election. Yes, even though the media have gone for this "so-called (only by them) red wall", working class revolt angle, the more realistic analysis is the age demographic. Labour's new leader has to find a way to win older votes, although they won't be skewered by brexit next time, which will make a big difference.
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GE 2019
Dec 17, 2019 17:29:13 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 17:29:13 GMT 1
Only problem is Burnham isn’t an MP, so would need a by election to get him in. I personally think he would be the best person for the job. I’d also look at Dan Jarvis, Keir Starmer or Yvette Cooper. Appointing Long-Bailey would be a disaster for the party. Same case for Jess Phillips, who I absolutely can not stand. I agree , more of the same with Long- Bailey . Surely not Thornberry , a bloody nightmare . As for Jess Phillips , well , her pretension that she cannot understand long words or something like is just ballocks . Wouldn’t have her at any price . Starmer or Cooper would be good .
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GE 2019
Dec 17, 2019 17:49:43 GMT 1
Post by northwestman on Dec 17, 2019 17:49:43 GMT 1
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GE 2019
Dec 17, 2019 17:55:11 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 17:55:11 GMT 1
There are several wild ideas in that scenario but the largest of all is that JC could have won a general election. Well done on tapping that one into an open goal. Point on double standards/cognitive dissonance/mental gymnastics still stands, though. I get it - right wing media bias etc. Shows the importance of getting the next leader of the opposition to be one who can at least win over certain areas of the media.
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GE 2019
Dec 17, 2019 18:44:40 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 18:44:40 GMT 1
Also prejudice against a pronounced Brummie accent !!!
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GE 2019
Dec 17, 2019 19:40:01 GMT 1
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Post by SouthStandShrew on Dec 17, 2019 19:40:01 GMT 1
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Post by venceremos on Dec 17, 2019 22:15:42 GMT 1
What’s the male equivalent of an overblown feminist?
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GE 2019
Dec 18, 2019 2:25:54 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2019 2:25:54 GMT 1
You know after a while, a very short while, you tend to get fed up with the likes of Farage and Galloway . I don’t know why they are given any kind of publicity . I would love it ( just like Keegan ) if some one , on air , would just turn around and say **** OFF to them . Sorry 😐 rant over.
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Post by zenfootball2 on Dec 18, 2019 8:01:56 GMT 1
What’s the male equivalent of an overblown feminist? egotistical Ubersexuals ? www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25943326"A conference at London's Southbank Centre this weekend - Being a Man - aims to shed light on where masculinity has got to. One panel discussion features author Nick Hornby, singer Billy Bragg and designer Wayne Hemingway talking about "being a bloke". "If they were holding this conference in Mansfield they'd be lucky to sell a ticket."
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GE 2019
Dec 18, 2019 9:10:37 GMT 1
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Post by SouthStandShrew on Dec 18, 2019 9:10:37 GMT 1
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shrewinspain
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Post by shrewinspain on Dec 18, 2019 9:32:35 GMT 1
Matt Hancock a disaster of an interview this morning; cannot stand up to questions from Dan Walker ! Number of nurses (n) will increase by 50,000 but the answer is not n+50,000 because "you do not understand the difference between gross and net"
Since when has gross and net been an issue in looking at number of employees - FTE vs number of employees, yes; but net vs gross ?
This is going to be a government of lies and spin. They are clearly working on the principle that if they say it often enough people will believe it because we cannot be arsed with the detail. So these soundbites will become a perceived truth; it will be re-quoted as a "fact" that there are 50,000 more nurses regardless of reality because the inconvenient and deceitful explanation of the number that will be edited out. The non-existent new nurses will work in the 40 new hospitals; which of course do not exist either.
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GE 2019
Dec 18, 2019 10:46:56 GMT 1
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Post by salop27 on Dec 18, 2019 10:46:56 GMT 1
Matt Hancock a disaster of an interview this morning; cannot stand up to questions from Dan Walker ! Number of nurses (n) will increase by 50,000 but the answer is not n+50,000 because "you do not understand the difference between gross and net" Since when has gross and net been an issue in looking at number of employees - FTE vs number of employees, yes; but net vs gross ? This is going to be a government of lies and spin. They are clearly working on the principle that if they say it often enough people will believe it because we cannot be arsed with the detail. So these soundbites will become a perceived truth; it will be re-quoted as a "fact" that there are 50,000 more nurses regardless of reality because the inconvenient and deceitful explanation of the number that will be edited out. The non-existent new nurses will work in the 40 new hospitals; which of course do not exist either. This government will be under intense scrutiny. I'd wait for a while before passing judgment.
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GE 2019
Dec 18, 2019 11:08:13 GMT 1
Post by sheltonsalopian on Dec 18, 2019 11:08:13 GMT 1
My personal pick is Andy Burnham, they'd obviously have to parachute him in somewhere though. He's not a London centric MP, speaks well, campaigned for remain but realised that the only way forward was with a soft brexit and anyone who can unite Scousers and Manc's must have something about them.
Wouldn't mind Starmer either but good luck selling that to the Northern voters they lost to the Brexit Party.
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GE 2019
Dec 18, 2019 11:17:31 GMT 1
Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2019 11:17:31 GMT 1
Matt Hancock a disaster of an interview this morning; cannot stand up to questions from Dan Walker ! Number of nurses (n) will increase by 50,000 but the answer is not n+50,000 because "you do not understand the difference between gross and net" Since when has gross and net been an issue in looking at number of employees - FTE vs number of employees, yes; but net vs gross ? This is going to be a government of lies and spin. They are clearly working on the principle that if they say it often enough people will believe it because we cannot be arsed with the detail. So these soundbites will become a perceived truth; it will be re-quoted as a "fact" that there are 50,000 more nurses regardless of reality because the inconvenient and deceitful explanation of the number that will be edited out. The non-existent new nurses will work in the 40 new hospitals; which of course do not exist either. Yeah I watched that, not easy viewing, pretty cringe-worthy. I understand though why the 19,000 is included in their 50,000 number. My explanation would be if you have 100 nurses today and typically an average of 19 leave every year (stress, retirement etc.), you currently have 19 new nurses coming in to replace them to keep it at a level of 100. If you can stop those 19 leaving, whilst adding 31 'completely new' nurses to the system (along with the 19 new you already have planned) then you'll have 150 at the end of the program. Hence you see an increase of 50. Simply stating it as '50 new nurses' though is understandably confusing. Probably easier just to say they plan to increase the number of nurses employed by the NHS by 50,000.
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GE 2019
Dec 18, 2019 11:18:28 GMT 1
Post by northwestman on Dec 18, 2019 11:18:28 GMT 1
My personal pick is Andy Burnham, they'd obviously have to parachute him in somewhere though. He's not a London centric MP, speaks well, campaigned for remain but realised that the only way forward was with a soft brexit and anyone who can unite Scousers and Manc's must have something about them. Wouldn't mind Starmer either but good luck selling that to the Northern voters they lost to the Brexit Party. Starmer along with McDonnell and others was guilty of pushing Corbyn into including a second referendum in their Manifesto. The result of which was unmitigated disaster in the polls, apart from London. For that misjudgment alone, he should not be let anywhere near the leadership.
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GE 2019
Dec 18, 2019 12:37:31 GMT 1
Post by venceremos on Dec 18, 2019 12:37:31 GMT 1
What’s the male equivalent of an overblown feminist? egotistical Ubersexuals ? www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25943326"A conference at London's Southbank Centre this weekend - Being a Man - aims to shed light on where masculinity has got to. One panel discussion features author Nick Hornby, singer Billy Bragg and designer Wayne Hemingway talking about "being a bloke". "If they were holding this conference in Mansfield they'd be lucky to sell a ticket." Perhaps, but then who'd want to live in Mansfield?
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GE 2019
Dec 18, 2019 12:44:08 GMT 1
Post by northwestman on Dec 18, 2019 12:44:08 GMT 1
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Post by venceremos on Dec 18, 2019 12:50:33 GMT 1
My personal pick is Andy Burnham, they'd obviously have to parachute him in somewhere though. He's not a London centric MP, speaks well, campaigned for remain but realised that the only way forward was with a soft brexit and anyone who can unite Scousers and Manc's must have something about them. Wouldn't mind Starmer either but good luck selling that to the Northern voters they lost to the Brexit Party. Starmer along with McDonnell and others was guilty of pushing Corbyn into including a second referendum in their Manifesto. The result of which was unmitigated disaster in the polls, apart from London. For that misjudgment alone, he should not be let anywhere near the leadership. Not including a second referendum would also have been a disaster. Labour lost a lot of older votes - it would have lost a lot of younger votes instead. It lost in the old industrial towns - it would have lost in the cities instead. It won back a lot of remainer support because of that commitment, including everyone in my immediate family. I don't think any of us would have voted Labour without that, including one who's a party member. The lesson from 1983, 1987 and 1992 for Labour was that it couldn't win with only its traditional support and heartland seats. That's every bit as true now as it was then. This was an impossible election for Labour to win outright, even though I think it actually had the fairest and most sensible brexit policy. It wasn't a misjudgement, it was the right call in impossible circumstances. Brexit should have been resolved before any election was held. There were two grave misjudgements - agreeing to an election when a second referendum was there for the taking - failing to build an electoral pact to oppose the Tory/brexit one Had the progressive vote not been split across the country it could have been a very different outcome, as the voting numbers demonstrate. For that stupidity, Corbyn and Swinson must share responsibility, but Corbyn primarily as the leader of the larger party.
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GE 2019
Dec 18, 2019 13:05:58 GMT 1
Post by northwestman on Dec 18, 2019 13:05:58 GMT 1
"Not including a second referendum would also have been a disaster. Labour lost a lot of older votes - it would have lost a lot of younger votes instead. It lost in the old industrial towns - it would have lost in the cities instead".
It lost in old industrial cities too I can assure you!
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GE 2019
Dec 18, 2019 13:25:08 GMT 1
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Post by armchairfan on Dec 18, 2019 13:25:08 GMT 1
So, where to now...?
It was ironic, was it not, that, if Mr Corbyn and MrMcDonnell are correct in their assessment that the election was lost due to the Brexit factor, it appears to have highlighted the divisions in the Labour Party, rather than caused the final disintegration of the Conservative Party, for which they had hoped and fought?
Was the election result "good for our Democracy? In one important way, of course it was, insofar as it served to confirm the Referendum result; there is however a caveat here, which is that for the system to function properly, there must be a credible Opposition, and, whatever the reasons are for Labour's failure, the electorate decided that credibility was not exactly its strongest suit. I would argue therefore that, whilst the Conservative Party has the responsibility of Government, upon Labour members falls an even greater responsibility - a responsibility to that very Democracy, by taking decisions to make itself credible, and above all, ELECTABLE. I have no doubt that there will be rancorous arguments,and opposing assessments both within the PLP, and the wider membership, as to the reasons for defeat, but it all boils down to a single issue: whether the socialist purity of one's beliefs is more important than being in a position, ie Government, to put right those things which you believe need to be put right; if the Labour Party decides that Socialist purity IS more important, then it may well be the case that in the future, it will be reduced to the status of a fringe campaigning body, rather than a potential government. THAT is an awesome responsibility.
As regards the new Government, and leaving on one side for the moment its detailed policies, it does owe a debt to all those people who loaned their votes, and it is my fervent wish that they are not ignored,which they believe to be the case for so many years: a combination of fiscal prudence (pace, Gordon Brown) and social liberalism is the right path to choose .....yes, genuine One Nation Conservative policies. I wish them all good fortune.
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