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Post by venceremos on Feb 4, 2019 11:55:34 GMT 1
Hurst always made a big thing of the spirit engendered in that 2017/18 squad and having the right characters. And you could see that on the pitch.
Then he went to Ipswich, failed utterly to replicate that and was gone within 3 months of the season starting.
We don't have last season's squad, this is a different group altogether. That chemistry has gone and it's clear Hurst can't always recreate it. The notion that, as blueboy62 puts it but others seem to think, this is "the nearest guarantee of success that you can get in football" seems wildly optimistic to me.
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Post by Namur on Feb 4, 2019 12:04:15 GMT 1
Hurst always made a big thing of the spirit engendered in that 2017/18 squad and having the right characters. And you could see that on the pitch. Then he went to Ipswich, failed utterly to replicate that and was gone within 3 months of the season starting. We don't have last season's squad, this is a different group altogether. That chemistry has gone and it's clear Hurst can't always recreate it. The notion that, as blueboy62 puts it but others seem to think, this is "the nearest guarantee of success that you can get in football" seems wildly optimistic to me. Spot on. As much as anything it was one of those wonderful seasons where everyone clicked and hit good form. The frustrating thing is that on paper at least, this squad is as pretty much as good as last year's. Excluding a couple of players (Godfrey and Henderson) who weren't our players to begin with.
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Post by horse01 on Feb 4, 2019 12:05:46 GMT 1
Have you any idea of the budget constraints that Hurst was working under in the championship?? Genuine question, as I am not privy to those, yet an awful lot of ITFC fans think that it is Marcus Evans holding the club back?
Lambert hasn’t exactly done anything since he arrived. McCarthy always seemed to have them punching above their weight.
Hurst assembled last seasons squad through his knowledge of the lower leagues and talented youngsters. That philosophy was unlikely to work at a higher level and so it proved.
But he has a knowledge of this level. He is proven at this level. The same can’t be said of the current set up. One thing you know you will get with Hurst and Doig is organisation, added to the hard work and fitness he demands, that is a recipe for at least giving us a fighting chance of pulling away from the bottom.
As we currently stand, we look so disorganised and unprofessional it beggars belief. We are sleepwalking into relegation. Some maybe happy with that, I certainly am not?!
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Post by venceremos on Feb 4, 2019 12:55:40 GMT 1
Have you any idea of the budget constraints that Hurst was working under in the championship?? Genuine question, as I am not privy to those, yet an awful lot of ITFC fans think that it is Marcus Evans holding the club back? Lambert hasn’t exactly done anything since he arrived. McCarthy always seemed to have them punching above their weight. Hurst assembled last seasons squad through his knowledge of the lower leagues and talented youngsters. That philosophy was unlikely to work at a higher level and so it proved. But he has a knowledge of this level. He is proven at this level. The same can’t be said of the current set up. One thing you know you will get with Hurst and Doig is organisation, added to the hard work and fitness he demands, that is a recipe for at least giving us a fighting chance of pulling away from the bottom. As we currently stand, we look so disorganised and unprofessional it beggars belief. We are sleepwalking into relegation. Some maybe happy with that, I certainly am not?! Chemistry has nothing to do with budgets though. He didn't exactly have a star-spangled squad here, and not much money to improve it, but something gelled. Lots of managers are proven at this level but the experienced ones are also likely to have failed at this level too. Organisation, hard work and fitness aren't always enough. Most teams have that. The assumption that the chemistry would happen again is odd. Maybe it would but it's just as likely to happen with another manager as with Hurst. He's not the special one and it's time we stopped thinking he is and looked forward.
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Post by martinshrew on Feb 4, 2019 13:04:37 GMT 1
Have you any idea of the budget constraints that Hurst was working under in the championship?? Genuine question, as I am not privy to those, yet an awful lot of ITFC fans think that it is Marcus Evans holding the club back? Lambert hasn’t exactly done anything since he arrived. McCarthy always seemed to have them punching above their weight. Hurst assembled last seasons squad through his knowledge of the lower leagues and talented youngsters. That philosophy was unlikely to work at a higher level and so it proved. But he has a knowledge of this level. He is proven at this level. The same can’t be said of the current set up. One thing you know you will get with Hurst and Doig is organisation, added to the hard work and fitness he demands, that is a recipe for at least giving us a fighting chance of pulling away from the bottom. As we currently stand, we look so disorganised and unprofessional it beggars belief. We are sleepwalking into relegation. Some maybe happy with that, I certainly am not?! The club would like you to think otherwise, but they actually burnt their bridges with Hurst & Doig and they're not interested in a return to the club. Mr Caldwell whilst he has done some great things for the club, regularly doesn't tell the truth.
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Post by blueboy62 on Feb 4, 2019 13:25:43 GMT 1
Hurst's reputation a hit after 'failing'at Ipswich but is now recovering as Lambert also fails to turn things around. Our current squad is much better than the one Hurst over in October 2016. We've all seen some really good performances as well as some rubbish. It is the inconsistency that baffles me. Belief and confidence are at rock bottom due to results and I suspect, the lack of a consistent plan.
For me, Hurst would sort this out very quickly. There's 48pts to play for and we need almost half of them. Bristol Rovers on Saturday is critical. Another Luton performance will remove any hope for us under Rickets unfortunately.
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Post by venceremos on Feb 4, 2019 13:47:05 GMT 1
Hurst's reputation a hit after 'failing'at Ipswich but is now recovering as Lambert also fails to turn things around. Our current squad is much better than the one Hurst over in October 2016. We've all seen some really good performances as well as some rubbish. It is the inconsistency that baffles me. Belief and confidence are at rock bottom due to results and I suspect, the lack of a consistent plan. For me, Hurst would sort this out very quickly. There's 48pts to play for and we need almost half of them. Bristol Rovers on Saturday is critical. Another Luton performance will remove any hope for us under Rickets unfortunately. The idea that the inability of one manager to salvage the problems left by the previous manager somehow restores the reputation of the previous manager is bizarre. Has Askey's reputation recovered now that Ricketts is struggling?
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jacksdad
Midland League Division Two
Posts: 246
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Post by jacksdad on Feb 4, 2019 14:07:37 GMT 1
Afternoon All, new member to the board. I've enjoyed reading all the banter and commentary....looks like I've joined at a great time when everyone's in buoyant form..
Fully understand the general frustration with SR particularly after recent performances at home in the league however, for what it's worth I think he's got to given more time to work with the squad and hopefully bed in the January loanees. Second half at Stoke demonstrated he can change systems to influence and change what's happening on the pitch. I agree that he needs a more experienced no.2 who he can bounce ideas off and help/advise him though....
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Post by blueboy62 on Feb 4, 2019 14:09:56 GMT 1
Port Vale think so.
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jacksdad
Midland League Division Two
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Post by jacksdad on Feb 4, 2019 14:11:44 GMT 1
Afternoon All, new member to the board. I've enjoyed reading all the banter and commentary....looks like I've joined at a great time when everyone's in buoyant form.. Fully understand the general frustration with SR particularly after recent performances at home in the league however, for what it's worth I think he's got to given more time to work with the squad and hopefully bed in the January loanees. Second half at Stoke demonstrated he can change systems to influence and change what's happening on the pitch. I agree that he needs a more experienced no.2 who he can bounce ideas off and help/advise him though....
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Post by horse01 on Feb 4, 2019 14:12:16 GMT 1
Have you any idea of the budget constraints that Hurst was working under in the championship?? Genuine question, as I am not privy to those, yet an awful lot of ITFC fans think that it is Marcus Evans holding the club back? Lambert hasn’t exactly done anything since he arrived. McCarthy always seemed to have them punching above their weight. Hurst assembled last seasons squad through his knowledge of the lower leagues and talented youngsters. That philosophy was unlikely to work at a higher level and so it proved. But he has a knowledge of this level. He is proven at this level. The same can’t be said of the current set up. One thing you know you will get with Hurst and Doig is organisation, added to the hard work and fitness he demands, that is a recipe for at least giving us a fighting chance of pulling away from the bottom. As we currently stand, we look so disorganised and unprofessional it beggars belief. We are sleepwalking into relegation. Some maybe happy with that, I certainly am not?! Chemistry has nothing to do with budgets though. He didn't exactly have a star-spangled squad here, and not much money to improve it, but something gelled. Lots of managers are proven at this level but the experienced ones are also likely to have failed at this level too. Organisation, hard work and fitness aren't always enough. Most teams have that. The assumption that the chemistry would happen again is odd. Maybe it would but it's just as likely to happen with another manager as with Hurst. He's not the special one and it's time we stopped thinking he is and looked forward. So that was your opinion last year was it? When we were flying high? It was just down to something gelling? Have you not considered that he may have had a very good scouting network in place? That he identified the type of player that was required for each position, and went out and got them. I’m sorry but I can’t buy into this theory that he was just lucky that something clicked. He pretty much had two decent options for every position on the pitch. That wasn’t down to luck. How would you explain the drop in performance levels from the likes of Beckles, Sadler and Bolton this season? They have been playing in the same positions that they played in last season. Organisation, hard work and fitness should be a prerequisite. Unfortunately, we currently show signs of lacking all three. Chemistry, as you put it, would follow if all bought into the Manager’s footballing philosophy. At the moment, I’m not convinced that the Manager buys into the Managers philosophy?
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Post by tvor on Feb 4, 2019 14:18:13 GMT 1
I think he's got to given more time to work with the squad and hopefully bed in the January loanees. Second half at Stoke demonstrated he can change systems to influence and change what's happening on the pitch. Welcome. I don't think many people think he won't, or shouldn't be given time. The question is for how long, for example if nothing has improved after a further ten games will the board just allow us to drift aimlessly into League 2 without a fight or try to make a change in attempt to arrest it, with Danny Coyne again for the last six or seven games for example. Interesting point about Stoke. The question is whether what he did at Stoke was something of a fluke. Ricketts has shown an irritating Mellon like tendency to change formations multiple times in a game, I think he used four formations at Bradford for example. In my opinion he needs to do the opposite, decide on a formation and stick with it for a few games. Yes maybe make one change in a game here and there if necessary but not the number of changes we have been seeing.
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jacksdad
Midland League Division Two
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Post by jacksdad on Feb 4, 2019 15:21:26 GMT 1
Thanks.
That's a really tough call, if he's given 10 games our season may be over by the end of that period however, equally I think he's got to be given a fair crack of the whip. Again I think it comes back to supporting him with a more experienced no. 2 until the end of the season. If we did change manager the new incumbent would have very little time to turn things around so frying pans and fire spring to mind particularly given recent managerial appointments! I didn't go to Bradford but I'd agree with you about deciding on a formation and sticking or at least tweaking it during a game as opposed to multiple changes..
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Post by venceremos on Feb 4, 2019 16:12:42 GMT 1
Chemistry has nothing to do with budgets though. He didn't exactly have a star-spangled squad here, and not much money to improve it, but something gelled. Lots of managers are proven at this level but the experienced ones are also likely to have failed at this level too. Organisation, hard work and fitness aren't always enough. Most teams have that. The assumption that the chemistry would happen again is odd. Maybe it would but it's just as likely to happen with another manager as with Hurst. He's not the special one and it's time we stopped thinking he is and looked forward. So that was your opinion last year was it? When we were flying high? It was just down to something gelling? Have you not considered that he may have had a very good scouting network in place? That he identified the type of player that was required for each position, and went out and got them. I’m sorry but I can’t buy into this theory that he was just lucky that something clicked. He pretty much had two decent options for every position on the pitch. That wasn’t down to luck. How would you explain the drop in performance levels from the likes of Beckles, Sadler and Bolton this season? They have been playing in the same positions that they played in last season. Organisation, hard work and fitness should be a prerequisite. Unfortunately, we currently show signs of lacking all three. Chemistry, as you put it, would follow if all bought into the Manager’s footballing philosophy. At the moment, I’m not convinced that the Manager buys into the Managers philosophy? My opinion last year was that we were of a similar standard to most of the teams we played but that we had a little extra something that got us the points more often than not.. This season, until recently, I've thought the reverse - that we were of a similar standard to the teams we faced but just fell short in most games. It's got much worse lately but that's a different matter, we're talking about Hurst, not Ricketts. I'm not selling a theory that Hurst was lucky so you don't need to apologise for not buying it. I'm saying he did a good job. He selected his squad, the characters were right, the spirit seemed genuinely strong and it made a huge difference. Does that mean he can do it again, with a different set of characters? Not necessarily, as evidenced by the fact that he made such a godawful hash of the Ipswich opportunity. That's all I'm saying. Is that hard to understand?
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Post by Mortgagehound on Feb 4, 2019 16:14:58 GMT 1
Mr Hurst had an excellent time at Shrewsbury and nearly got us to the promised land, but gave up on getting us across the line as soon as Ipswich and his agent texted him.
He treated the club and its supporters with utter contempt.
There is no way I would accept this two faced t##t back in my club.
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Post by venceremos on Feb 4, 2019 16:21:00 GMT 1
I think he's got to given more time to work with the squad and hopefully bed in the January loanees. Second half at Stoke demonstrated he can change systems to influence and change what's happening on the pitch. Welcome. I don't think many people think he won't, or shouldn't be given time. The question is for how long, for example if nothing has improved after a further ten games will the board just allow us to drift aimlessly into League 2 without a fight or try to make a change in attempt to arrest it, with Danny Coyne again for the last six or seven games for example. Interesting point about Stoke. The question is whether what he did at Stoke was something of a fluke. Ricketts has shown an irritating Mellon like tendency to change formations multiple times in a game, I think he used four formations at Bradford for example. In my opinion he needs to do the opposite, decide on a formation and stick with it for a few games. Yes maybe make one change in a game here and there if necessary but not the number of changes we have been seeing. I agree with you generally, although I think any decision on Ricketts can't be left for another 10 games. If he were to be replaced, I think any replacement would need 10-12 games to try to turn it around. I'm not saying Ricketts should go but, if it's to happen at all, the worst thing would be to leave it until it's too late for anyone to have a chance of rescuing us. To be fair to Ricketts, it can't be right that, when he makes a change that works (as at Stoke) it's a fluke and when he makes one that doesn't he's a bad manager. That's not to say I think he's getting it right at all - I think we need to be much more solid, with a back 3 and no midfield diamond. I wish he'd stick with something and give it chance to work, while there's still just about enough time left. Askey was the same - try something, looks promising, then, first time there's a problem, ditch it. In our position, I suspect we need to simplify everything, play some back to basics football, make ourselves hard to beat - and stick with it.
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Post by martinshrew on Feb 4, 2019 16:25:16 GMT 1
Welcome. I don't think many people think he won't, or shouldn't be given time. The question is for how long, for example if nothing has improved after a further ten games will the board just allow us to drift aimlessly into League 2 without a fight or try to make a change in attempt to arrest it, with Danny Coyne again for the last six or seven games for example. Interesting point about Stoke. The question is whether what he did at Stoke was something of a fluke. Ricketts has shown an irritating Mellon like tendency to change formations multiple times in a game, I think he used four formations at Bradford for example. In my opinion he needs to do the opposite, decide on a formation and stick with it for a few games. Yes maybe make one change in a game here and there if necessary but not the number of changes we have been seeing. I agree with you generally, although I think any decision on Ricketts can't be left for another 10 games. If he were to be replaced, I think any replacement would need 10-12 games to try to turn it around. I'm not saying Ricketts should go but, if it's to happen at all, the worst thing would be to leave it until it's too late for anyone to have a chance of rescuing us. To be fair to Ricketts, it can't be right that, when he makes a change that works (as at Stoke) it's a fluke and when he makes one that doesn't he's a bad manager. That's not to say I think he's getting it right at all - I think we need to be much more solid, with a back 3 and no midfield diamond. I wish he'd stick with something and give it chance to work, while there's still just about enough time left. Askey was the same - try something, looks promising, then, first time there's a problem, ditch it. In our position, I suspect we need to simplify everything, play some back to basics football, make ourselves hard to beat - and stick with it. We either need to go 4-4-2 and be hard to beat, or go with the 3-5-2 that has served us well in periods and be expansive and try to beat teams. The diamond, or any other variation doesn't really work as proven throughout the season.
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Post by venceremos on Feb 4, 2019 16:42:10 GMT 1
I agree with you generally, although I think any decision on Ricketts can't be left for another 10 games. If he were to be replaced, I think any replacement would need 10-12 games to try to turn it around. I'm not saying Ricketts should go but, if it's to happen at all, the worst thing would be to leave it until it's too late for anyone to have a chance of rescuing us. To be fair to Ricketts, it can't be right that, when he makes a change that works (as at Stoke) it's a fluke and when he makes one that doesn't he's a bad manager. That's not to say I think he's getting it right at all - I think we need to be much more solid, with a back 3 and no midfield diamond. I wish he'd stick with something and give it chance to work, while there's still just about enough time left. Askey was the same - try something, looks promising, then, first time there's a problem, ditch it. In our position, I suspect we need to simplify everything, play some back to basics football, make ourselves hard to beat - and stick with it. We either need to go 4-4-2 and be hard to beat, or go with the 3-5-2 that has served us well in periods and be expansive and try to beat teams. The diamond, or any other variation doesn't really work as proven throughout the season. Agreed, except I don't think we've got the players for 4-4-2, although that may be because I don't really like it generally. Whalley, for sure, but Gilliead doesn't convince me he's anything other than an occasional contributor and I don't like the idea of shunting someone on to the wing who isn't really a winger. I'd say 4-3-3 was an option, given that Okenabirhie and Campbell could play either side of Payne or whoever. But our defending has been so poor that a back four feels too risky for us, unless we put two holding midfielders in front of it, like last season.
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Post by tvor on Feb 4, 2019 16:47:16 GMT 1
T o be fair to Ricketts, it can't be right that, when he makes a change that works (as at Stoke) it's a fluke and when he makes one that doesn't he's a bad manager. That's not to say I think he's getting it right at all - I think we need to be much more solid, with a back 3 and no midfield diamond. I wish he'd stick with something and give it chance to work, while there's still just about enough time left. Askey was the same - try something, looks promising, then, first time there's a problem, ditch it. In our position, I suspect we need to simplify everything, play some back to basics football, make ourselves hard to beat - and stick with it. My point is that he does is far too much. Given the number of times he does it, just on the law of averages, it would probably have a beneficial effect somewhere along the line. His approach just seems far too scatter gun and reactive rather than having much of a plan.
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Post by tvor on Feb 4, 2019 16:51:33 GMT 1
The diamond, or any other variation doesn't really work as proven throughout the season. Coyne/Ramsey played the diamond during their temporary time in charge.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2019 17:09:27 GMT 1
Nigel Pearson is the solution to our blue and amber problems.
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Post by venceremos on Feb 4, 2019 17:09:54 GMT 1
T o be fair to Ricketts, it can't be right that, when he makes a change that works (as at Stoke) it's a fluke and when he makes one that doesn't he's a bad manager. That's not to say I think he's getting it right at all - I think we need to be much more solid, with a back 3 and no midfield diamond. I wish he'd stick with something and give it chance to work, while there's still just about enough time left. Askey was the same - try something, looks promising, then, first time there's a problem, ditch it. In our position, I suspect we need to simplify everything, play some back to basics football, make ourselves hard to beat - and stick with it. My point is that he does is far too much. Given the number of times he does it, just on the law of averages, it would probably have a beneficial effect somewhere along the line. His approach just seems far too scatter gun and reactive rather than having much of a plan. Planning's all well and good but sometimes you have to be reactive. Unless he had a plan for being 2-0 down at half time at Stoke, he had to react to what had happened in the first half and what could be done to improve things. I don't believe his choice was a lucky dip. I agreed with you that the changes have been too frequent, but it's his planned changes before games that I object to more than the reactive ones during them. Sometimes, credit is due though.
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Post by horse01 on Feb 4, 2019 17:10:31 GMT 1
So that was your opinion last year was it? When we were flying high? It was just down to something gelling? Have you not considered that he may have had a very good scouting network in place? That he identified the type of player that was required for each position, and went out and got them. I’m sorry but I can’t buy into this theory that he was just lucky that something clicked. He pretty much had two decent options for every position on the pitch. That wasn’t down to luck. How would you explain the drop in performance levels from the likes of Beckles, Sadler and Bolton this season? They have been playing in the same positions that they played in last season. Organisation, hard work and fitness should be a prerequisite. Unfortunately, we currently show signs of lacking all three. Chemistry, as you put it, would follow if all bought into the Manager’s footballing philosophy. At the moment, I’m not convinced that the Manager buys into the Managers philosophy? My opinion last year was that we were of a similar standard to most of the teams we played but that we had a little extra something that got us the points more often than not.. This season, until recently, I've thought the reverse - that we were of a similar standard to the teams we faced but just fell short in most games. It's got much worse lately but that's a different matter, we're talking about Hurst, not Ricketts. I'm not selling a theory that Hurst was lucky so you don't need to apologise for not buying it. I'm saying he did a good job. He selected his squad, the characters were right, the spirit seemed genuinely strong and it made a huge difference. Does that mean he can do it again, with a different set of characters? Not necessarily, as evidenced by the fact that he made such a godawful hash of the Ipswich opportunity. That's all I'm saying. Is that hard to understand? Clearly
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2019 17:14:43 GMT 1
Was that little something extra = Jon Nolan
You only have to look at Bolton and Beckles - they are shot to pieces (they are good players) - Sadler is going the same way. Wasn't it Hurst that changed Sadler to a Centre Back as well.
Hurst could work with what he got.
Unsure on whether Askey could - certainly not 'Hursts' squad - though I think Ricketts has used up more of his Nine Lives that Askey did.
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Post by TheFoz on Feb 4, 2019 17:18:45 GMT 1
Thanks. That's a really tough call, if he's given 10 games our season may be over by the end of that period however, equally I think he's got to be given a fair crack of the whip. Again I think it comes back to supporting him with a more experienced no. 2 until the end of the season. If we did change manager the new incumbent would have very little time to turn things around so frying pans and fire spring to mind particularly given recent managerial appointments! I didn't go to Bradford but I'd agree with you about deciding on a formation and sticking or at least tweaking it during a game as opposed to multiple changes.. Completely agree. Get an experienced assistant in and back to basics. 4-4-2 or 4-5-1, play with a bit of width, we should do better. Whalley and Campbell could terrorise defences but Ricketts seems very reluctant to play wingers.
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Post by llanymynechshrew on Feb 4, 2019 17:33:54 GMT 1
I think he's got to given more time to work with the squad and hopefully bed in the January loanees. Second half at Stoke demonstrated he can change systems to influence and change what's happening on the pitch. Welcome. I don't think many people think he won't, or shouldn't be given time. The question is for how long, for example if nothing has improved after a further ten games will the board just allow us to drift aimlessly into League 2 without a fight or try to make a change in attempt to arrest it, with Danny Coyne again for the last six or seven games for example. Interesting point about Stoke. The question is whether what he did at Stoke was something of a fluke. Ricketts has shown an irritating Mellon like tendency to change formations multiple times in a game, I think he used four formations at Bradford for example. In my opinion he needs to do the opposite, decide on a formation and stick with it for a few games. Yes maybe make one change in a game here and there if necessary but not the number of changes we have been seeing. He used formations in that game i have never seen before
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2019 17:43:43 GMT 1
Any chance of some diagrammatic examples of the formations used away at Bradford.
Can I take a guess.
1. The Custers (Steve Arnold) last stand at Little Bighorn (Valley Parade). 2. The Retreat of Dunkirk (James Bolton). 3. The One Man Army Tactic (Okenabirhie) 4. The Statue Pose (Luke Waterfall).
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Post by camdenshrew on Feb 4, 2019 17:55:31 GMT 1
5. The Headless Chicken (Sam Smith).
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Post by Mortgagehound on Feb 4, 2019 18:35:21 GMT 1
Not forgetting the Douglas Bader routine with balls projected at high altitude for everyone to run after in despair
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