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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 10:42:55 GMT 1
As a remainer who doesn’t want another referendum I wonder what it is leavers want? Because as last nights vote showed us, it’s clearly not just brexit. It is Brexit. 52% voted Brexit. Most level headed remainers want to see democracy implemented, so the 52% is effectively higher. It's a shame only around 20% of MPs believe in Brexit, the rest are trying to derail it. They're there to support their constituents, but they're failing. Rees Mogg voted against it. He is possibly the most senior brexitteer. He doesn’t think it’s brexit, but you do? Is it or isn’t it brexit?
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Post by martinshrew on Jan 16, 2019 11:00:08 GMT 1
It is Brexit. 52% voted Brexit. Most level headed remainers want to see democracy implemented, so the 52% is effectively higher. It's a shame only around 20% of MPs believe in Brexit, the rest are trying to derail it. They're there to support their constituents, but they're failing. Rees Mogg voted against it. He is possibly the most senior brexitteer. He doesn’t think it’s brexit, but you do? Is it or isn’t it brexit? I'm personally clinging onto the possibility of no deal. I think that would apply to the likes of Rees-Mogg and Boris Johnson, they've voted down the deal in hope of no deal and a clean break from the establishment.
The best news tonight will be JC's vote of no confidence getting rejected. JC, the anti-semite and his merry gang are the biggest threat to this country currently.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 11:13:53 GMT 1
The best news tonight will be JC's vote of no confidence getting rejected. JC, the anti-semite and his merry gang are the biggest threat to this country currently. [/div]
[/quote] Oh come on now you can do better than that. Your clearly diversionary response in no way makes up for the s**t non answer you gave to my question. So to recap. You say Mays deal was brexit. Rees Mogg says it’s not. So is it brexit or not? If you can’t think of a proper answer that doesnt make you look a bit daft, just do a “Stutty” and give us a rot laugh instead!!
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Post by martinshrew on Jan 16, 2019 11:28:06 GMT 1
The best news tonight will be JC's vote of no confidence getting rejected. JC, the anti-semite and his merry gang are the biggest threat to this country currently. Carry on clinging on Matron. JC's no confidence vote will be voted down tonight, that will be the end of him. Hopefully, we'll now plough forward with a no deal Brexit, leave on the 29th March and start to fix the issues we're facing at home.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 11:47:40 GMT 1
Carry on clinging on Matron. JC's no confidence vote will be voted down tonight, that will be the end of him. Hopefully, we'll now plough forward with a no deal Brexit, leave on the 29th March and start to fix the issues we're facing at home. Of course it will. I think even he knows that! But, and I hate to embarrass you like this, TMs brexit deal, was it brexit or not? I mean, brexit means brexit doesn’t it? You think TMs deal was brexit (you said so)but your wet dream Jacob Rees Mogg says not. If you can’t explain in words try drawing a picture?!
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Post by aghabullogueshrew on Jan 16, 2019 12:02:34 GMT 1
Ahhhhhhhhh! That is what I feel like doing now! Did anyone ever see an opinion poll prior to the original referendum in 2016! The vast majority said that remain would win by be between 2 to 4%. So what happened! People didn't change their minds, they lied to the pollsters! Why, because they didn't want to be as anti foreigner. Result, a lot of remain voters stayed at home because of the polls and we end up with this mess!
Here's a crazy idea, call a second referendum and ban all pre vote polls. Let's see what the result is then!
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Post by venceremos on Jan 16, 2019 12:42:36 GMT 1
I am still waiting to hear a sane reason why the UK should leave the EU. This is not a 'wind up' question. Is there any sound economic reason to leave? Haven't two world wars showed us that we must have a union of some kind? Do (some) Brexiteers really dislike 'foreigners' so much? Positive answers encouraged. It should be a question of principle, not money. An un-elected bureaucrat dictating how other countries should be punished for not towing the line (Poland, Austria) is very wrong. Add to that the desire for their own army and you have the end of democracy. Economically the Germans were right to vote for Hitler and the Italians for Mussolini. They give you the money and you give them the power to do what they want. Unelected bureaucrats don't dictate to governments. The EU isn't structured in that way, it's just a myth peddled by Europhobes. The EU army point is a nonsense too. It would require unanimity so, as EU members, the UK could block it. Russia is exercising its nationalist and military muscles and Trump wants to reduce US support for NATO so it's understandable that some EU countries on the mainland might want to strengthen their defences. But we can prevent it anyway. It's a red herring. End of democracy? Nah, that's your real "project fear" right there.
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Post by venceremos on Jan 16, 2019 12:43:45 GMT 1
As a remainer who doesn’t want another referendum I wonder what it is leavers want? Because as last nights vote showed us, it’s clearly not just brexit. It is Brexit. 52% voted Brexit. Most level headed remainers want to see democracy implemented, so the 52% is effectively higher. It's a shame only around 20% of MPs believe in Brexit, the rest are trying to derail it. They're there to support their constituents, but they're failing. And this is based on what polling evidence? The wishful thinking poll with a sample of one?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 13:18:59 GMT 1
Hyperbole, nothing has died.
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Post by zenfootball2 on Jan 16, 2019 13:49:24 GMT 1
this has been so divisive for the country, it has shown how utterly devoid our country is of any statesman / stateswomen . we are the laughing stock of Europe and who in the world can take us seriously. the running of this country has been parked for two years wilst overblown egos throw there collective dummies out of there prams.who knows how much money has been wasted ,so two years and we are at gridlock.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 13:57:17 GMT 1
The best news tonight will be JC's vote of no confidence getting rejected. JC, the anti-semite and his merry gang are the biggest threat to this country currently. [/div]
[/quote] Oh come on now you can do better than that. Your clearly diversionary response in no way makes up for the s**t non answer you gave to my question. So to recap. You say Mays deal was brexit. Rees Mogg says it’s not. So is it brexit or not? If you can’t think of a proper answer that doesnt make you look a bit daft, just do a “Stutty” and give us a rot laugh instead!![/quote] It was a version of BREXIT in a negotiated way, which unfortunately had us tied to the EU until they decide we can leave, which is not really leaving the EU. So you can call it May's version of BREXIT, however it was not the exit from the EU that i voted leave for, which is probably why it got rejected.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 14:11:37 GMT 1
It was a version of BREXIT in a negotiated way, which unfortunately had us tied to the EU until they decide we can leave, which is not really leaving the EU. So you can call it May's version of BREXIT, however it was not the exit from the EU that i voted leave for, which is probably why it got rejected.[/quote] ay up heres comes the cavalry! how are you Mr Downward? Im not entirely sure MPs were thinking of you when they voted but i could be wrong. To clarify, martinshrew said TMs brexit deal WAS brexit. Rees Mogg says it isn't. You say its a VERSION of brexit. But i thought brexit means brexit? Can you help martin out and clarify what brexit is?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 14:27:58 GMT 1
ay up heres comes the cavalry! how are you Mr Downward? Im not entirely sure MPs were thinking of you when they voted but i could be wrong. To clarify, martinshrew said TMs brexit deal WAS brexit. Rees Mogg says it isn't. You say its a VERSION of brexit. But i thought brexit means brexit? Can you help martin out and clarify what brexit is? [/quote] BREXIT is not what May suggested, its a very watered down version. Mrs May has that wonderful soundbite of BREXIT means BREXIT, and also no deal is better than a bad deal, which she also conveniently forgotten, I know my version of BREXIT is far more than what she as a remainer wants. :-) there is some clarity amongst this muddy pit we are now in.... its not the peoples fault, its the MP's such as Soubry.... who think they know better than the population.... but that is life... and i am superb, should be in a position to go live in Spain, just in time.... :-)
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 16, 2019 14:35:10 GMT 1
Isn't there already a 30 page thread for this? Can't they be merged? FFS! Pah!! We're rank amateurs. Just having a nose around the Stoke forum this morning (as you do ) and their Brexit thread is over the 500 page mark!!
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Post by shrewsace on Jan 16, 2019 14:42:41 GMT 1
Rees Mogg voted against it. He is possibly the most senior brexitteer. He doesn’t think it’s brexit, but you do? Is it or isn’t it brexit? I'm personally clinging onto the possibility of no deal. I think that would apply to the likes of Rees-Mogg and Boris Johnson, they've voted down the deal in hope of no deal and a clean break from the establishment. They certainly don't come any more anti-establishment than those two...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 21:20:46 GMT 1
Good stuff from Frankwell.
As pointed out by someone on here a while back, democracy is a process not an event.
There were approx. 33,500,000 votes cast in 2016, which represents roughly 50% of the UK's population.
In short the interests of that 50% need to be looked after, especially the young people ineligible to vote and those, who for various reasons, couldn't register.
The fact that our Parliament has control suggests our democracy is alive and kicking.
Having said that, it's time to be more progressive in our electoral system.
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Post by venceremos on Jan 17, 2019 13:06:13 GMT 1
On 12 December, 117 Tory MPs voted that they had no confidence in Theresa May as the leader of their party.
On 16 January, the day after she lost her flagship policy and suffered the most humiliating parliamentary defeat of any Prime Minister in our history, all of those 117 MPs voted that they had confidence in Theresa May as the leader of the country.
So she's not fit to lead her party but she's the right person to lead the country?
Party before country, every time. I suggest the OP might want to start with these 117 hypocrites (Rees Mogg and his dim-witted ERG gang) if he believes our democracy is dying.
As an aside, how stupid of the ERG to time their challenge to May when they did. If they'd waited until now they could have caught her at her weakest, right after her deal was crushed. But the fools had blown their chance and can't do anything until the end of the year, the f***wits.
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Post by ssshrew on Jan 17, 2019 13:36:47 GMT 1
But turkeys don’t vote for Christmas!!! No confidence as a party leader is so easy as it’s just between themselves. No confidence as PM means getting off their backsides, putting their actions where their mouths are and facing the electorate. A plague on all of them for me I’m afraid.
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Post by neilsalop on Jan 17, 2019 14:15:40 GMT 1
I hardly think that 10 available votes is a "huge say". Indeed, the DUP will almost certainly vote against the goverment because of the Irish issue so again I feel it's still irrelevant and can't se them having any impact on the vote. OK the money given to them was obsecene but I still honestly believe it's not going to affect the outcome of this vote except for the government to get an even bigger bloody nose. The general election was indeed a complete folly but TM saw it as more than that but it backfired big time. Just on your last sentence - what happened in 2010 with a coalition government? The Tory's fell 20 seats short of a majority and used the Lib-Dems to "prop them up". It's not new Funny how those 10 votes are keeping the Tories in power. Those 10 against last night would have ended the Tory reign of terror against the poor and vulnerable in the UK, but no, they instead vote to prop up a dead horse of a government. I'd call that quite a substantial say, wouldn't you?
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Post by venceremos on Jan 17, 2019 16:42:29 GMT 1
But turkeys don’t vote for Christmas!!! No confidence as a party leader is so easy as it’s just between themselves. No confidence as PM means getting off their backsides, putting their actions where their mouths are and facing the electorate. A plague on all of them for me I’m afraid. What's laughable is those MPs and members of the public insisting that May is the best person for the job. How do they arrive at that conclusion, given that she's had the job for 2.5 years and failed spectacularly at it? How can that be true when over a third of her own MPs wanted her out? How does anyone know she's the best person for the job - she's the only bloody person that's had it!? It's like having a manager for 2.5 losing seasons and insisting they're still the best person for the job! Even the most stubborn supporter would be thinking perhaps it was time for someone else to have a go. May chose to take on brexit herself. She chose to exclude the other parties. Labour's Caroline Flint, a bigger May supporter than many in the Tory party, received short shrift from her when she offered positive suggestions before Tuesday's dismal failure. Even now, May fails to recognise the scale of her own failure by insisting on taking her rejected red lines into talks with other parties. She's not the mark II iron lady, she's a battered old dustbin blocking the back alley. Parliament and the country's stuck and the worthless May is at least as much the obstacle as anything else. What a bunch of weaklings in the Tory party that they haven't anybody willing and able to step up - if they had, she'd be told to resign and replaced by the weekend.
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Post by martinshrew on Jan 17, 2019 17:11:47 GMT 1
They're only trying to make it difficult for the UK as they're petrified that Eurosceptic parties are on the rise. They need to make this look like a disater, and look like it's not worth it.
The EU are running scared. I cannot wait to leave, hopefully via a no deal for a full break off.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 19:51:44 GMT 1
The country is in a precarious position so what does that cockwomble Corbyn want.... take No Deal off the table... yes what a stunning piece that will be... Right Mr Junker... we have to leave in 71 days... and we take our bargining card away... just ready to be arse raped by the EU.... bell end...
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Post by Valerioch on Jan 17, 2019 20:18:27 GMT 1
I left the UK over 20 years ago but I am amazed at what is still going on! Firstly, the original referendum was like the last US election, i.e. " I'm going to vote exit, but I'm telling everyone that I'm voting remain as I don't want to come across as racist". So what happens, all the remain voters stay home because the the "polls" say they are going to win! Who voted exit then! Old people who, for someone stupid reason, believe that Britain still has an empire and ain't European! And people who thought all the Eastern Europeans would be kicked out of the UK if they voted exit! Don't blame the workers, blame the management! If you have a vacancy and you know you can get an Eastern European to do it for minimum wage, what would you do! So, what is the result of this mess. The British Empire will not suddenly rise from the ashes and the Eastern Europeans won't be sent packing. What a waste of time and, more importantly, money! What an ignorant view of why people voted Leave. And a view which patronises and divides us all even more
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Post by Valerioch on Jan 17, 2019 20:24:22 GMT 1
And they’re suggesting another referendum? Quite clearly by the last one the larger half of the UK have dung for brains! Just someone with the qualifications and who can make an educated assessment of the state of things say ‘all of this mess for things, you know what? Leaving the EU is stupid and we won’t be doing it!’ Or better yet, negotiate a deal and THEN offer up a referendum. I’m not much of a politics follower but no good at all can and will come of this. I feel like this country is on the brink of something truly awful. More than half of us have clearly lost our minds for starters or are just living 1833. Corbyn clearly won’t win this vote so it’s yet another waste of time! Teresa May unfortunately clearly won’t budge. She seems more bothered about how she looks than anything else. More b******s I don’t have dung for brains, nor have I lost my mind You lost. Get over it
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Post by Valerioch on Jan 17, 2019 20:26:59 GMT 1
Ahhhhhhhhh! That is what I feel like doing now! Did anyone ever see an opinion poll prior to the original referendum in 2016! The vast majority said that remain would win by be between 2 to 4%. So what happened! People didn't change their minds, they lied to the pollsters! Why, because they didn't want to be as anti foreigner. Result, a lot of remain voters stayed at home because of the polls and we end up with this mess! Here's a crazy idea, call a second referendum and ban all pre vote polls. Let's see what the result is then! Who can blame leavers for lying to pollsters, given all the abuse and slander we face, just because of the way we voted.
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Post by keithb123 on Jan 18, 2019 11:33:35 GMT 1
I hardly think that 10 available votes is a "huge say". Indeed, the DUP will almost certainly vote against the goverment because of the Irish issue so again I feel it's still irrelevant and can't se them having any impact on the vote. OK the money given to them was obsecene but I still honestly believe it's not going to affect the outcome of this vote except for the government to get an even bigger bloody nose. The general election was indeed a complete folly but TM saw it as more than that but it backfired big time. Just on your last sentence - what happened in 2010 with a coalition government? The Tory's fell 20 seats short of a majority and used the Lib-Dems to "prop them up". It's not new Funny how those 10 votes are keeping the Tories in power. Those 10 against last night would have ended the Tory reign of terror against the poor and vulnerable in the UK, but no, they instead vote to prop up a dead horse of a government. I'd call that quite a substantial say, wouldn't you? OK.. so the Government won by 19 votes - minus 10 DUP votes, they still won by 9 but don't let the facts get in the way.
By the way 3 Labour MPs also voted in favour of the Government!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2019 11:41:35 GMT 1
Funny how those 10 votes are keeping the Tories in power. Those 10 against last night would have ended the Tory reign of terror against the poor and vulnerable in the UK, but no, they instead vote to prop up a dead horse of a government. I'd call that quite a substantial say, wouldn't you? OK.. so the Government won by 19 votes - minus 10 DUP votes, they still won by 9 but don't let the facts get in the way.
By the way 3 Labour MPs also voted in favour of the Government!
They didn't, they abstained. They are former Labour MPs including the one that is facing a prison sentence.
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Post by keithb123 on Jan 18, 2019 11:43:00 GMT 1
I left the UK over 20 years ago but I am amazed at what is still going on! Firstly, the original referendum was like the last US election, i.e. " I'm going to vote exit, but I'm telling everyone that I'm voting remain as I don't want to come across as racist". So what happens, all the remain voters stay home because the the "polls" say they are going to win! Who voted exit then! Old people who, for someone stupid reason, believe that Britain still has an empire and ain't European! And people who thought all the Eastern Europeans would be kicked out of the UK if they voted exit! Don't blame the workers, blame the management! If you have a vacancy and you know you can get an Eastern European to do it for minimum wage, what would you do! So, what is the result of this mess. The British Empire will not suddenly rise from the ashes and the Eastern Europeans won't be sent packing. What a waste of time and, more importantly, money! What an ignorant view of why people voted Leave. And a view which patronises and divides us all even more Absolutely, what a strange thing to say. Do you not realise that there are 195 (recognised) countries on the planet so potentially we could trade with reduced tarifs or no tarifs at all. I hardly call that being racist.
To be fair I am sick of people using the race card because people voted to leave a corrupt undemocratic cartel. At the end of the day I am British, not European, does that make me a racist for voting leave? Think you need to try harder. As for your other point about "old people" believing EU workers would be kicked out!! Really? I work for a multi-national and some of my best friends and colleagues are from the EU and other parts of the world.
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Post by LetchworthShrew on Jan 18, 2019 11:44:18 GMT 1
Funny how those 10 votes are keeping the Tories in power. Those 10 against last night would have ended the Tory reign of terror against the poor and vulnerable in the UK, but no, they instead vote to prop up a dead horse of a government. I'd call that quite a substantial say, wouldn't you? OK.. so the Government won by 19 votes - minus 10 DUP votes, they still won by 9 but don't let the facts get in the way.
By the way 3 Labour MPs also voted in favour of the Government!
That's supposing the 10 DUP hadn't voted at all. If they had voted against then the Govt would have lost by 1.
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Post by thesensationaljt on Jan 18, 2019 12:09:15 GMT 1
If you leavers want to raise your spirits, watch last nights rally in London on utube. My hero, Kate Hoey, gave a brilliant speech. She raised the topic of Anna Soubry being called a Nazi. Kate said she had been accused of being a Nazi on 20 occasions just recently. Sir Rocco Forte and me wouldn't invite each other round for tea, he isn't a great speaker, but his facts were interesting. (When he praised Thatcher you should have seen the withering look my hero Kate gave him!). The Roccofellah stated that a much larger proportion of our trade comes from outside the EU, so why aren't there large hold-ups at the border? I was amazed by Ian Duncan Smiff. His account of a trip to Germany to represent the Prime Minister was absolute class, very funny.
Certainly lifted the spirits of those of us who would rather spend £39 billion on public services in Britain than spend it on drunken EU officials.
Power to the people.
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