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Post by staffordshrew on Jun 27, 2019 19:58:00 GMT 1
Not just entrenched views either, Hunt voted remain, but wouldn't have stood a chance of leadership if he hadn't ditched his principles.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jun 27, 2019 20:01:38 GMT 1
There's no holes in the leavers stories 🤣🤣🤣 Oh no, i don't wish to abuse, but it's just too tempting: There's no holes in the leavers stories 🤣🤣🤣, only ar**holes.
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Post by salop27 on Jun 27, 2019 20:32:28 GMT 1
There's no holes in the leavers stories 🤣🤣🤣 Oh no, i don't wish to abuse, but it's just too tempting: There's no holes in the leavers stories 🤣🤣🤣, only ar**holes. It does of course take one to know one.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2019 8:12:04 GMT 1
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Post by salop27 on Jun 28, 2019 9:36:25 GMT 1
If a satisfactory deal is reached the report says. Until we reach midnight on the 31st of October there is every chance a satisfactory deal will be struck. If parliament decide to block any no deal option then the chances go down as the EU will not be bothered to try to renegotiate as they know we won't be leaving on that date.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jun 28, 2019 9:52:58 GMT 1
If a satisfactory deal is reached the report says. Until we reach midnight on the 31st of October there is every chance a satisfactory deal will be struck. If parliament decide to block any no deal option then the chances go down as the EU will not be bothered to try to renegotiate as they know we won't be leaving on that date. If our negotiators were serious about "no deal" and wanted to have a chance of getting parliament on side, they would have plans for it, this might have included stating that without a will to start to renegotiate by, say, end of July, we assume "no deal". But our leaders are too busy deciding who's going to be in charge. All we have done so far is stood on the bridge and threatened that if nothing happens by October 31st we will jump.
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Post by percy on Jun 28, 2019 10:18:00 GMT 1
If a satisfactory deal is reached the report says. Until we reach midnight on the 31st of October there is every chance a satisfactory deal will be struck. If parliament decide to block any no deal option then the chances go down as the EU will not be bothered to try to renegotiate as they know we won't be leaving on that date. Problem is that Farage has now whipped the masses into wanting a 'no deal' Brexit with anything less showing signs of capitulation to the EU. So what was seen by everyone as something to avoid not so long ago is now the first choice of many of the Tory faithful. The Tory MPs need the Tory faithful to keep their jobs so they are becoming increasingly gung-ho; now also followed by Labour MPs from areas where Farage is seen as an anti-establishment and anti-foreigner God where the electorate think that no deal is the only Brexit to go for. I am increasingly thinking that the only way forward is no deal and for these idiots to have it proved to them what a mess it will be - the country will be ****ed for a couple of generations, but it seems the only way that they will believe. I'll be living elsewhere (as will most people with an option) - so the Leavers can then blame me for making Brexit a catastrophe.
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Post by neilsalop on Jun 28, 2019 14:28:48 GMT 1
If a satisfactory deal is reached the report says. Until we reach midnight on the 31st of October there is every chance a satisfactory deal will be struck. If parliament decide to block any no deal option then the chances go down as the EU will not be bothered to try to renegotiate as they know we won't be leaving on that date. I'll be living elsewhere (as will most people with an option) - so the Leavers can then blame me for making Brexit a catastrophe. All very well if you're in a position to relocate out of the country, you are and I wish you well, however most of us are going to have live with Brexit and the aftermath. What hurts the leavers also hurts most remainers and all the 'I told you so's' arent going to make a difference.
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Post by percy on Jun 28, 2019 14:58:33 GMT 1
I'll be living elsewhere (as will most people with an option) - so the Leavers can then blame me for making Brexit a catastrophe. All very well if you're in a position to relocate out of the country, you are and I wish you well, however most of us are going to have live with Brexit and the aftermath. What hurts the leavers also hurts most remainers and all the 'I told you so's' arent going to make a difference. 100% agree - and as one who will abandon the UK; I will be depriving my children and possibly grand-children of having a true homeland by not growing up in the UK, so it is not exactly on a whim or with glee that I say that I will be off. Any normal person who is thinking that a 'no deal' will be fine for them really has no clue what they are talking about. As an economist with 30 years experience and benefiting from detailed independent analysis on the subject I know that we can not see forward with absolute clarity; but believe me when I say I that the chances of the UK being better off leaving with no deal compared to staying in the EU is 0. There is NO credible source ANYWHERE who would offer you a different view. Yet I sit and listen to the musings of politicians and people down the pub who think that they somehow can see a different reality. They are able to dust any facts off as being unpatriotic or part of project fear as if it is some form of EU conspiracy. The situation is genuinely crazy as the Leavers are fighting for a concept that will bring no benefit to them in their every day life at all. WHY ?
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Post by staffordshrew on Jun 28, 2019 15:11:31 GMT 1
WHY?
Farage.
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Post by tvor on Jun 28, 2019 15:15:46 GMT 1
Because blaming the EU for the problems in this country is the easy thing to do and an easy thing to sell. In reality the problems are entirely due to the Tory government's ideological austerity policies, their shameful lack of investment and policies which favour the rich over the poor. Leaving the EU isn't going to change that.
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Post by neilsalop on Jun 28, 2019 18:51:33 GMT 1
Because blaming the EU for the problems in this country is the easy thing to do and an easy thing to sell. In reality the problems are entirely due to the Tory government's ideological austerity policies, their shameful lack of investment and policies which favour the rich over the poor. Leaving the EU isn't going to change that. Now far be it from me to defend the Tories in any way, shape or form, but I think the neo-liberal, pro-corporate New Labour years had a fair amount to do with general discontent than was running through the country, so it is bit harsh to just blame the Tories. People saw the banks being bailed out by Brown as the forerunner for the Tory austerity agenda and wanted to 'stick it to the man' and Farage scaring the moderate wing (if there ever was such a thing) of the Tory party in to a panic (ably assisted by the Murdoch and Barclay Bros press) gave them the ideal opportunity.
I used to be vehemently anti-EU, but the thought of being stuck on an island run by the Tories without the stabilising influence of Europe terrified me, unfortunately not enough other people realised what leaving meant.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 28, 2019 19:14:12 GMT 1
If this hasn't yet become longest thread in B&A history then its nailed on to get there eventuality with the repetitiveness on offer. Is it a record? If not, how long do we have to go? Anyone? Pilch?
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Post by salop27 on Jun 28, 2019 19:59:49 GMT 1
Because blaming the EU for the problems in this country is the easy thing to do and an easy thing to sell. In reality the problems are entirely due to the Tory government's ideological austerity policies, their shameful lack of investment and policies which favour the rich over the poor. Leaving the EU isn't going to change that. Some people have short memories. In 2010, when a Conservative/Lib Dem coalition control the countries finances were dire. Good luck, there's no money the note said in the treasury. The UKs financial rating was being lowered on a regular basis. All inherited from a labour government who once again had spent more then the country could afford. Do you fail to see the irony? You say the EU aren't to blame but its an easy sell yet you blame everything on the Conservatives yet that's an easy sell from labour. They favour the rich over the poor, same old labour rubbish when the tories are now the party doing more for the working class.
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Post by tvor on Jun 28, 2019 21:52:13 GMT 1
Because blaming the EU for the problems in this country is the easy thing to do and an easy thing to sell. In reality the problems are entirely due to the Tory government's ideological austerity policies, their shameful lack of investment and policies which favour the rich over the poor. Leaving the EU isn't going to change that. Some people have short memories. In 2010, when a Conservative/Lib Dem coalition control the countries finances were dire. Good luck, there's no money the note said in the treasury. The UKs financial rating was being lowered on a regular basis. All inherited from a labour government who once again had spent more then the country could afford. Do you fail to see the irony? You say the EU aren't to blame but its an easy sell yet you blame everything on the Conservatives yet that's an easy sell from labour. They favour the rich over the poor, same old labour rubbish when the tories are now the party doing more for the working class. I have a good memory, I can remember the global financial crisis at that time which has been opportunistically used since as a stick to beat the Labour government of the time with. I can remember Cameron in opposition largely being supportive of Labour financial policy until relatively close to the financial crisis but then being very quick to make political capital out of it when it suited him. The Tories wouldn't have handled that situation any better and probably much worse. As for the Tories doing more for the working class that is utterly laughable. The Tory, and Tory coalition, record with regard to the effect of their policies on working people, disabled people and other worse off groups since 2010 is appalling. Conversely those policies have seen the rich get even better off.
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Post by venceremos on Jun 28, 2019 22:39:05 GMT 1
Because blaming the EU for the problems in this country is the easy thing to do and an easy thing to sell. In reality the problems are entirely due to the Tory government's ideological austerity policies, their shameful lack of investment and policies which favour the rich over the poor. Leaving the EU isn't going to change that. Some people have short memories. In 2010, when a Conservative/Lib Dem coalition control the countries finances were dire. Good luck, there's no money the note said in the treasury. The UKs financial rating was being lowered on a regular basis. All inherited from a labour government who once again had spent more then the country could afford. Do you fail to see the irony? You say the EU aren't to blame but its an easy sell yet you blame everything on the Conservatives yet that's an easy sell from labour. They favour the rich over the poor, same old labour rubbish when the tories are now the party doing more for the working class. Governments weren't to blame. It wasn't a government that made Bear Stearns collapse, or Northern Rock, or that saw many other financial institutions teetering on the brink of meltdown. It was a failure of unfettered capitalism (aka greed) within the banking and financial sectors. There's been a shameful airbrushing of history around this and the Tories have been more culpable than most in shifting the blame from the real culprits.
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Post by stfcfan87 on Jun 28, 2019 22:48:34 GMT 1
If a satisfactory deal is reached the report says. Until we reach midnight on the 31st of October there is every chance a satisfactory deal will be struck. If parliament decide to block any no deal option then the chances go down as the EU will not be bothered to try to renegotiate as they know we won't be leaving on that date. By the time the tories have decided who their next leader is, there's going to be something like 20 days left in parliament for a direction to be decided upon, negotiated with parliament and negotiated with the EU. That doesn't seem remotely realistic
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Post by staffordshrew on Jun 28, 2019 23:34:36 GMT 1
Because blaming the EU for the problems in this country is the easy thing to do and an easy thing to sell. In reality the problems are entirely due to the Tory government's ideological austerity policies, their shameful lack of investment and policies which favour the rich over the poor. Leaving the EU isn't going to change that. Some people have short memories. In 2010, when a Conservative/Lib Dem coalition control the countries finances were dire. Good luck, there's no money the note said in the treasury. The UKs financial rating was being lowered on a regular basis. All inherited from a labour government who once again had spent more then the country could afford. Do you fail to see the irony? You say the EU aren't to blame but its an easy sell yet you blame everything on the Conservatives yet that's an easy sell from labour. They favour the rich over the poor, same old labour rubbish when the tories are now the party doing more for the working class. It's been mentioned by one contributor that he doesn't want to contemplate the tories running this Island without a stabilisong influence from Europe. I bet you will be glad that the next Labour government won't be able to do just what it wants because of the stabilising influence of Europe, oh, hang on, there won't be any................
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Post by salop27 on Jun 29, 2019 0:01:30 GMT 1
In my reply I don't mention the financial crash being labour's fault. The fact they'd lost control of public spending sometime before meant they were in a terrible position to cope with the following recession.
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Post by percy on Jun 29, 2019 19:30:04 GMT 1
Bizarre story on Corbyn being too frail to be PM - looks like the Tories out to defend the inevitable no confidence vote by trying to show weaknesses in Corbyn rather than strengths in their new leader.
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Post by neilsalop on Jul 1, 2019 7:09:27 GMT 1
Because blaming the EU for the problems in this country is the easy thing to do and an easy thing to sell. In reality the problems are entirely due to the Tory government's ideological austerity policies, their shameful lack of investment and policies which favour the rich over the poor. Leaving the EU isn't going to change that. Some people have short memories. In 2010, when a Conservative/Lib Dem coalition control the countries finances were dire. Good luck, there's no money the note said in the treasury. The UKs financial rating was being lowered on a regular basis. All inherited from a labour government who once again had spent more then the country could afford. Do you fail to see the irony? You say the EU aren't to blame but its an easy sell yet you blame everything on the Conservatives yet that's an easy sell from labour. They favour the rich over the poor, same old labour rubbish when the tories are now the party doing more for the working class. Do you have proof of this, are you making it up or have you been spoon fed it by the Tory press?
I ask because a simple Google search shows the following for the main credit reference agencies:
Fitch - AAA until May 2013. AA+ through to July 2016 when it dropped to AA.
S & P - AAA all the way through until June 2016, although it had been at AAA with negative rating since 2012.
Moodys - AAA until Feb 2013 when it dropped to Aa1 through to Sept. 2017 when there was a further reduction to Aa2.
Now I might have slept through it, but I'm pretty sure that there wasn't a Labour govt. at these times.
If you're going spread lies and bulls**t on a public forum you had better make sure that they are not provable as lies.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2019 8:16:05 GMT 1
Wow. 2019 and with Boris Johnson making unfettered, uncosted spending pledges, salop27 trots out the line that austerity was a financial necessity and not a choice of political and social engineering.
Staggering levels of subversion and outright nonsense on display.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2019 10:21:45 GMT 1
The UKs financial rating was being lowered on a regular basis. Do you have proof of this, are you making it up or have you been spoon fed it by the Tory press? I wouldn't worry too much Neil, im sure Stutty will have spotted this glaring bit of bull s**t and be furiously researching to find a caveat to add!
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Post by neilsalop on Jul 1, 2019 11:37:04 GMT 1
Do you have proof of this, are you making it up or have you been spoon fed it by the Tory press? I wouldn't worry too much Neil, im sure Stutty will have spotted this glaring bit of bull s**t and be furiously researching to find a caveat to add! Oh I have no doubt about that. Funny how even throughout the financial crisis and the bank bailouts we kept a AAA rating, yet somehow it will all be Labours fault that we lost under the Tories.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jul 1, 2019 11:43:24 GMT 1
With the spending being promised by both candidates it looks like we are about to find out that the Tories can bankrupt the country when it suits them.
Doubt it will work though, both are pledging to take us out of Europe without knowing how much that will cost the country as jobs and high earners disappear to Europe. When the manufacturing and high earners go, the things they spend on go too, so we could be starting the domino effect to disaster.
The Tory party, meanwhile, continues to cling on to "we must complete Brexit", totally ignoring all those who voted LibDem or Green in the European elections because the ERG has all the influence within the Tory party.
This really can't go on, how do we stop the runaway train?
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Post by salop27 on Jul 1, 2019 12:09:11 GMT 1
With the spending being promised by both candidates it looks like we are about to find out that the Tories can bankrupt the country when it suits them. Doubt it will work though, both are pledging to take us out of Europe without knowing how much that will cost the country as jobs and high earners disappear to Europe. When the manufacturing and high earners go, the things they spend on go too, so we could be starting the domino effect to disaster. The Tory party, meanwhile, continues to cling on to "we must complete Brexit", totally ignoring all those who voted LibDem or Green in the European elections because the ERG has all the influence within the Tory party. This really can't go on, how do we stop the runaway train? New Conservative policy is being dictated by the general public. Anyone who doesn't like it should move to somewhere like China, I understand they're not big on democracy there so should suit👍
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2019 13:32:37 GMT 1
With the spending being promised by both candidates it looks like we are about to find out that the Tories can bankrupt the country when it suits them. Doubt it will work though, both are pledging to take us out of Europe without knowing how much that will cost the country as jobs and high earners disappear to Europe. When the manufacturing and high earners go, the things they spend on go too, so we could be starting the domino effect to disaster. The Tory party, meanwhile, continues to cling on to "we must complete Brexit", totally ignoring all those who voted LibDem or Green in the European elections because the ERG has all the influence within the Tory party. This really can't go on, how do we stop the runaway train? New Conservative policy is being dictated by the general public. I'm looking forward to Boris listening to public opinion and nationalising the railways and public utilities then.
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Post by camdenshrew on Jul 1, 2019 13:44:38 GMT 1
With the spending being promised by both candidates it looks like we are about to find out that the Tories can bankrupt the country when it suits them. Doubt it will work though, both are pledging to take us out of Europe without knowing how much that will cost the country as jobs and high earners disappear to Europe. When the manufacturing and high earners go, the things they spend on go too, so we could be starting the domino effect to disaster. The Tory party, meanwhile, continues to cling on to "we must complete Brexit", totally ignoring all those who voted LibDem or Green in the European elections because the ERG has all the influence within the Tory party. This really can't go on, how do we stop the runaway train? New Conservative policy is being dictated by the general public. Anyone who doesn't like it should move to somewhere like China, I understand they're not big on democracy there so should suit👍 Is this a parody account? The Conservative "policy" which is being espoused at the moment by Johnson and Hunt is merely to appeal to the small amount of totally unrepresentative Tory members who theyneed to elect them. They are uncosted and totally unrealistic.
Hunt and Johnson are lying to them like they lie to the rest of us.
To say those who oppose them should disappear to China really is jumping the shark.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 1, 2019 14:47:25 GMT 1
Do you have proof of this, are you making it up or have you been spoon fed it by the Tory press? I wouldn't worry too much Neil, im sure Stutty will have spotted this glaring bit of bull s**t and be furiously researching to find a caveat to add! Awwww bless.
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Post by Valerioch on Jul 1, 2019 17:22:34 GMT 1
With the spending being promised by both candidates it looks like we are about to find out that the Tories can bankrupt the country when it suits them. Doubt it will work though, both are pledging to take us out of Europe without knowing how much that will cost the country as jobs and high earners disappear to Europe. When the manufacturing and high earners go, the things they spend on go too, so we could be starting the domino effect to disaster. The Tory party, meanwhile, continues to cling on to "we must complete Brexit", totally ignoring all those who voted LibDem or Green in the European elections because the ERG has all the influence within the Tory party. This really can't go on, how do we stop the runaway train? And you’re totally ignoring all those who voted Brexit Party, UKIP or Conservative, in the recent European Elections You’re also ignoring the 2016 referendum result, and 2017 general election result
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