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Post by neilsalop on Jul 1, 2019 19:27:04 GMT 1
With the spending being promised by both candidates it looks like we are about to find out that the Tories can bankrupt the country when it suits them. Doubt it will work though, both are pledging to take us out of Europe without knowing how much that will cost the country as jobs and high earners disappear to Europe. When the manufacturing and high earners go, the things they spend on go too, so we could be starting the domino effect to disaster. The Tory party, meanwhile, continues to cling on to "we must complete Brexit", totally ignoring all those who voted LibDem or Green in the European elections because the ERG has all the influence within the Tory party. This really can't go on, how do we stop the runaway train? And you’re totally ignoring all those who voted Brexit Party, UKIP or Conservative, in the recent European Elections You’re also ignoring the 2016 referendum result, and 2017 general election result Are you insinuating that every Conservative voter is pro-Brexit? I know that not all Labour voters are anti, there are probably some lifelong LibDems that are pro. A potentially meaningless election ( if we leave in October all the MEPs elected in May will out of a job) does not count for much apart from a barometer on peoples thoughts about Europe.
In case you haven't noticed there are plenty of other things going on in the country that should concern us; austerity is still causing major hardships, public sector wages are still stagnant at best, the regime of sanctions and PIP assessments is actually killing people, our veterans are still sleeping on the streets, Grenfell residents are still living in s**tty hotels and hostels, people of the Windrush generation are still getting deported, we're still aiding and abetting the brutal Saudi war against the people of the Yemen, we're still handing out fracking licences like confetti while climate change threatens our whole existance and the only thing that concerns you is a flawed referendum that happened 3 years ago and shows no signs of being resolved to the satisfaction of large swathes of the population.
Do you actually ever consider that 48% didn't want to leave at all and that there are many that voted leave who were under the impression that we would be aiming for a similar to Norway and certainly don't want to crash out with no deal?
No? Thought not.
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Post by Valerioch on Jul 1, 2019 20:55:36 GMT 1
And you’re totally ignoring all those who voted Brexit Party, UKIP or Conservative, in the recent European Elections You’re also ignoring the 2016 referendum result, and 2017 general election result Are you insinuating that every Conservative voter is pro-Brexit? I know that not all Labour voters are anti, there are probably some lifelong LibDems that are pro. A potentially meaningless election ( if we leave in October all the MEPs elected in May will out of a job) does not count for much apart from a barometer on peoples thoughts about Europe.
In case you haven't noticed there are plenty of other things going on in the country that should concern us; austerity is still causing major hardships, public sector wages are still stagnant at best, the regime of sanctions and PIP assessments is actually killing people, our veterans are still sleeping on the streets, Grenfell residents are still living in s**tty hotels and hostels, people of the Windrush generation are still getting deported, we're still aiding and abetting the brutal Saudi war against the people of the Yemen, we're still handing out fracking licences like confetti while climate change threatens our whole existance and the only thing that concerns you is a flawed referendum that happened 3 years ago and shows no signs of being resolved to the satisfaction of large swathes of the population.
Do you actually ever consider that 48% didn't want to leave at all and that there are many that voted leave who were under the impression that we would be aiming for a similar to Norway and certainly don't want to crash out with no deal?
No? Thought not.
Hmm you’ve gone off on your agenda again... I responded to a post citing Remain votes in the recent European Election, by citing Leave votes. Nothing more, nothing less
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Post by staffordshrew on Jul 1, 2019 21:18:51 GMT 1
With the spending being promised by both candidates it looks like we are about to find out that the Tories can bankrupt the country when it suits them. Doubt it will work though, both are pledging to take us out of Europe without knowing how much that will cost the country as jobs and high earners disappear to Europe. When the manufacturing and high earners go, the things they spend on go too, so we could be starting the domino effect to disaster. The Tory party, meanwhile, continues to cling on to "we must complete Brexit", totally ignoring all those who voted LibDem or Green in the European elections because the ERG has all the influence within the Tory party. This really can't go on, how do we stop the runaway train? And you’re totally ignoring all those who voted Brexit Party, UKIP or Conservative, in the recent European Elections You’re also ignoring the 2016 referendum result, and 2017 general election result Yawn, that's all been gone through. All that's required is a confirmatory referendum to ensure the choice made is what the electorate want now. Based on the facts.
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Post by neilsalop on Jul 1, 2019 21:26:43 GMT 1
Are you insinuating that every Conservative voter is pro-Brexit? I know that not all Labour voters are anti, there are probably some lifelong LibDems that are pro. A potentially meaningless election ( if we leave in October all the MEPs elected in May will out of a job) does not count for much apart from a barometer on peoples thoughts about Europe.
In case you haven't noticed there are plenty of other things going on in the country that should concern us; austerity is still causing major hardships, public sector wages are still stagnant at best, the regime of sanctions and PIP assessments is actually killing people, our veterans are still sleeping on the streets, Grenfell residents are still living in s**tty hotels and hostels, people of the Windrush generation are still getting deported, we're still aiding and abetting the brutal Saudi war against the people of the Yemen, we're still handing out fracking licences like confetti while climate change threatens our whole existance and the only thing that concerns you is a flawed referendum that happened 3 years ago and shows no signs of being resolved to the satisfaction of large swathes of the population.
Do you actually ever consider that 48% didn't want to leave at all and that there are many that voted leave who were under the impression that we would be aiming for a similar to Norway and certainly don't want to crash out with no deal?
No? Thought not.
Hmm you’ve gone off on your agenda again... I responded to a post citing Remain votes in the recent European Election, by citing Leave votes. Nothing more, nothing less I asked you if every Conservative voter was pro-Brexit. If you're going count them as such I'm going to pull you up on it, as I have met quite a few Tories that don't support it, but won't vote for any other party. I'll grant you that every Brexit PLC or UKIP voter wants out of Europe, but I'll disagree that every Tory does.
I'll admit that I did go off on a tangent, but if Brexit and no-deal is your one and only concern you're missing the bigger picture.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jul 1, 2019 21:42:47 GMT 1
Hmm you’ve gone off on your agenda again... I responded to a post citing Remain votes in the recent European Election, by citing Leave votes. Nothing more, nothing less I asked you if every Conservative voter was pro-Brexit. If you're going count them as such I'm going to pull you up on it, as I have met quite a few Tories that don't support it, but won't vote for any other party. I'll grant you that every Brexit PLC or UKIP voter wants out of Europe, but I'll disagree that every Tory does.
I'll admit that I did go off on a tangent, but if Brexit and no-deal is your one and only concern you're missing the bigger picture.
I know he's suspended or whatever, but you can start with Tory grandee Heseltine, then there is Ken Clarke. There are some pro Europe lifelong Tory voters. but they keep it quiet. You have to worry about a party so intent on killing itself that it is contemplating putting the idiot Johnson in charge. And worry even more that they are taking the country down with the party.
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Post by Valerioch on Jul 1, 2019 22:35:31 GMT 1
And you’re totally ignoring all those who voted Brexit Party, UKIP or Conservative, in the recent European Elections You’re also ignoring the 2016 referendum result, and 2017 general election result Yawn, that's all been gone through. All that's required is a confirmatory referendum to ensure the choice made is what the electorate want now. Based on the facts. Yawn, that’s all been gone through. There are no more “facts” available now, that weren’t bandied around in 2016. You can’t have facts on a post EU UK, when it hasn’t happened yet
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2019 23:02:00 GMT 1
Valerioch.
In the past you made this statement.
"Cuts to services - Labour were running a huge budget deficit. Do you spend more money every month than you earn? No me neither, as it causes a thing called debt. Atleast this government is attempting to live within our means.
Little school funds - see above. Despite what Corbyn and Co believe, there isn’t a magic money tree we can use"
Based on the recent increased borrowing and state aid plans put forward by the two candidates do you retract?
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Post by Valerioch on Jul 2, 2019 6:58:51 GMT 1
Valerioch. In the past you made this statement. "Cuts to services - Labour were running a huge budget deficit. Do you spend more money every month than you earn? No me neither, as it causes a thing called debt. Atleast this government is attempting to live within our means. Little school funds - see above. Despite what Corbyn and Co believe, there isn’t a magic money tree we can use" Based on the recent increased borrowing and state aid plans put forward by the two candidates do you retract? No I don’t retract These 2 are vying for votes. I wouldn’t trust what they say as far as I can throw them A Corbyn led Labour Party would be a disaster for the economy
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Post by LetchworthShrew on Jul 2, 2019 7:09:20 GMT 1
The chancellor Philip Hammond has told both candidates to "stop and think" about their spending promises. Philip Hammond said they needed to "be honest" as the policies "greatly exceed" the Treasury's coffers "I think they need to be very careful about setting out these ambitions and being clear about the consequences of them."
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Post by LetchworthShrew on Jul 2, 2019 7:19:13 GMT 1
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Post by neilsalop on Jul 2, 2019 7:46:24 GMT 1
Valerioch. In the past you made this statement. "Cuts to services - Labour were running a huge budget deficit. Do you spend more money every month than you earn? No me neither, as it causes a thing called debt. Atleast this government is attempting to live within our means. Little school funds - see above. Despite what Corbyn and Co believe, there isn’t a magic money tree we can use" Based on the recent increased borrowing and state aid plans put forward by the two candidates do you retract? No I don’t retract These 2 are vying for votes. I wouldn’t trust what they say as far as I can throw them A Corbyn led Labour Party would be a disaster for the economy You say you don't trust Hunt or Johnson in your first statement and in your second you turn your attack on Corbyn for no other reason than to show that he would be (in your opinion) worse than two people who you admit are bloody liars.
Would you care to elaborate on why a Labour govt. would or could be worse for the economy than the last nine years of Tory led austerity. I'm no economist and I'm sure it's not quite as simple as this, but surely putting more money into the hands of more people, who then go on to spend it in their local economy has got to be better than giving billions in tax cuts to corporations and the type of people that stick their money in Panama or the Cayman Islands and is never spent in the economy.
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Post by davycrockett on Jul 2, 2019 8:39:03 GMT 1
Valerioch. In the past you made this statement. "Cuts to services - Labour were running a huge budget deficit. Do you spend more money every month than you earn? No me neither, as it causes a thing called debt. Atleast this government is attempting to live within our means. Little school funds - see above. Despite what Corbyn and Co believe, there isn’t a magic money tree we can use" Based on the recent increased borrowing and state aid plans put forward by the two candidates do you retract? No I don’t retract These 2 are vying for votes. I wouldn’t trust what they say as far as I can throw them A Corbyn led Labour Party would be a disaster for the economy And the conservative government under Cameron followed by May has been a great success I suppose? The country’s on its knees, divided and completely without direction with the clock ticking and all the conservatives can come up with including yourself is to turn on Corbyn.... Now the conservative plan is to spend spend spend to win votes and even the conservative electorate don’t believe either candidate, they’re so used to politicians lying it’s almost acceptable to them as long as it keeps ‘the evenly one’ out.....
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Post by martinshrew on Jul 2, 2019 10:02:21 GMT 1
And you’re totally ignoring all those who voted Brexit Party, UKIP or Conservative, in the recent European Elections You’re also ignoring the 2016 referendum result, and 2017 general election result Yawn, that's all been gone through. All that's required is a confirmatory referendum to ensure the choice made is what the electorate want now. Based on the facts. Absolutely, you're quite right, on the 31st October: 1) Leave with the proposed deal. 2) Leave without a deal.
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Post by percy on Jul 2, 2019 10:44:46 GMT 1
Yawn, that's all been gone through. All that's required is a confirmatory referendum to ensure the choice made is what the electorate want now. Based on the facts. Absolutely, you're quite right, on the 31st October: 1) Leave with the proposed deal. 2) Leave without a deal. Yawn - it is not democratic to refuse people the right to change their mind.
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Post by venceremos on Jul 2, 2019 12:22:31 GMT 1
Valerioch. In the past you made this statement. "Cuts to services - Labour were running a huge budget deficit. Do you spend more money every month than you earn? No me neither, as it causes a thing called debt. Atleast this government is attempting to live within our means. Little school funds - see above. Despite what Corbyn and Co believe, there isn’t a magic money tree we can use" Based on the recent increased borrowing and state aid plans put forward by the two candidates do you retract? No I don’t retract These 2 are vying for votes. I wouldn’t trust what they say as far as I can throw them A Corbyn led Labour Party would be a disaster for the economy Valerioch is a true, loyal Tory - party (liars and all) before country. Every time.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jul 2, 2019 12:34:56 GMT 1
"A Corbyn led Labour Party would be a disaster for the economy" Do Tory devotees chant that every night for an hour or so before bed? It seems that any excess and incompetence from their own side is tolerable because "A Corbyn led Labour Party would be a disaster for the economy", despite there being no substance to back up the story.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jul 2, 2019 12:37:23 GMT 1
Yawn, that's all been gone through. All that's required is a confirmatory referendum to ensure the choice made is what the electorate want now. Based on the facts. Absolutely, you're quite right, on the 31st October: 1) Leave with the proposed deal. 2) Leave without a deal. Lovely, a referendum that automatically excludes half the voters.
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Post by venceremos on Jul 2, 2019 13:08:29 GMT 1
Yawn, that's all been gone through. All that's required is a confirmatory referendum to ensure the choice made is what the electorate want now. Based on the facts. Yawn, that’s all been gone through. There are no more “facts” available now, that weren’t bandied around in 2016. You can’t have facts on a post EU UK, when it hasn’t happened yetWell there are more facts actually, because it's now three years later and things move on. We thought there would be a negotiated agreement for our leaving, for example, not that the government would embrace the possibility of a no deal exit that, in 2016, was only being touted by the most extreme brexiteers. We also didn't know then that our precious blue passports wouldn't be printed in Gateshead (factory closing) but in Eastern Europe. I know you brexiteers have difficulty making any mental shift out of 2016 but the rest of us are living in 2019 now. Funny though, you go on to say categorically that there are no facts to be had about something yet to happen. Then later, you also say: "A Corbyn led Labour Party would be a disaster for the economy"
That's something that hasn't yet happened, so your logic says it can't be a fact. But never mind that inconsistency, never mind that you're indulging in the sort of "project fear" scaremongering that remainers were accused of. You'd back either of the untrustworthy (as you describe them) candidates to be PM, even though they both claim to be ready to crash the country into an "economically catastrophic" (the words of Damian Green - a Johnson supporter) no deal brexit. Party before country, every time.
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Post by salop27 on Jul 2, 2019 13:38:38 GMT 1
There wasn't a Conservative government till 2015. Dont bother listening to what Hunt says as he has zero chance of winning. Evil Tories and their austerity measures has now turned into irresponsible spending Tories 😂😂😂
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Post by martinshrew on Jul 2, 2019 13:54:23 GMT 1
Absolutely, you're quite right, on the 31st October: 1) Leave with the proposed deal. 2) Leave without a deal. Lovely, a referendum that automatically excludes half the voters. We had the referendum in 2016 that included all voters, the vote was to leave. This referendum would be to decide how we leave, with or without a deal. Can't see your problem, unless of course you're against democracy?
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Post by staffordshrew on Jul 2, 2019 14:00:17 GMT 1
1. There wasn't a Conservative government till 2015. 2.Dont bother listening to what Hunt says as he has zero chance of winning. 3. Evil Tories and their austerity measures has now turned into irresponsible spending Tories 😂😂😂 1. Those were good times 2. Determined to inflict Boris, the useless Tory toff, on us. 3. That's what the Tories themselves are telling us. What was the point of austerity? They are telling us now we would be best to spend money on infrastructure to stimulate the economy.
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Post by percy on Jul 2, 2019 16:34:48 GMT 1
Lovely, a referendum that automatically excludes half the voters. We had the referendum in 2016 that included all voters, the vote was to leave. This referendum would be to decide how we leave, with or without a deal. Can't see your problem, unless of course you're against democracy? No it did not include all the current voters - many have died since and many have come of age; we now have a different electorate. How can it be democratic to refuse to let anyone change their mind based on the facts that exist now ? To say that no leavers have changed their mind is a) wrong and b) myopic beyond belief. If you test drive a car that is a pile of s**t do you stubbornly stick to buying it even though you can see it doesn't work ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2019 17:01:48 GMT 1
It is actually worthwhile re-quoting this by David Davis (and still on his website). This from our failed Brexit Secretary who struggled to get up off his backside to negotiate properly (allegedly)
"If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy".
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Post by staffordshrew on Jul 2, 2019 17:35:36 GMT 1
The number of people who have reached voting age and the number of people who have passed away since 2016 makes acting upon that result to leave now pretty shaky.
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Post by percy on Jul 2, 2019 18:13:48 GMT 1
The number of people who have reached voting age and the number of people who have passed away since 2016 makes acting upon that result to leave now pretty shaky. Roughly 10,000 people die per week (over 90% of whom are of voting age) and 11,000 are born - so in three years you could extrapolate to see the electorate change by around 3 million people.
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Post by neilsalop on Jul 2, 2019 19:55:24 GMT 1
1. There wasn't a Conservative government till 2015. 2.Dont bother listening to what Hunt says as he has zero chance of winning. 3. Evil Tories and their austerity measures has now turned into irresponsible spending Tories 😂😂😂 1. Those were good times 2. Determined to inflict Boris, the useless Tory toff, on us. 3. That's what the Tories themselves are telling us. What was the point of austerity? They are telling us now we would be best to spend money on infrastructure to stimulate the economy. Apparantly there is a £26biilion (or thereabouts) war chest that the Tories have been holding back to give tax cuts in the event of an election becoming imminent. Unfortunately a no-deal Brexit would eat that up in the first year, leaving them with no money to bribe the electorate with. If we do end up with no-deal I would imagine that there would be an election within a couple of months to cash in on Brexit feel good factor for the 52%. Obviously Farage and his company / party would be irrelevent by then anyway, so the Tories will be confident of getting back in before the whole country realised that it was all going to s**t.
No doubt when it does go horribly wrong, they'll blame Labours not allowing Mays deal to go through for all the problems.
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shrewinspain
Midland League Division Two
Grumpy old retired git
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Post by shrewinspain on Jul 2, 2019 21:12:37 GMT 1
The number of people who have reached voting age and the number of people who have passed away since 2016 makes acting upon that result to leave now pretty shaky. Roughly 10,000 people die per week (over 90% of whom are of voting age) and 11,000 are born - so in three years you could extrapolate to see the electorate change by around 3 million people. In the 2016 referendum Male 18-24 were 61% remain and Female 18-24 were 80% remain. For the over 65s it was Male 62% leave and Female 66% leave. If you assume that all those died were 65+, if you assume that the new 18-24 year olds voted the same way as that age group did before, and if you assume that nobody changes their mind; then you would have a net increase of 1.5m votes for remain and the result would be reversed. The assumptions are not 100% accurate obviously, but they are very likely directionally correct. I also imagine that a lot of those 2016 Leave voters would vote remain if Leave was on "no deal" terms. It is clear why the no deal nutters do not want a second referendum.
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Post by percy on Jul 2, 2019 21:41:58 GMT 1
Roughly 10,000 people die per week (over 90% of whom are of voting age) and 11,000 are born - so in three years you could extrapolate to see the electorate change by around 3 million people. In the 2016 referendum Male 18-24 were 61% remain and Female 18-24 were 80% remain. For the over 65s it was Male 62% leave and Female 66% leave. If you assume that all those died were 65+, if you assume that the new 18-24 year olds voted the same way as that age group did before, and if you assume that nobody changes their mind; then you would have a net increase of 1.5m votes for remain and the result would be reversed. The assumptions are not 100% accurate obviously, but they are very likely directionally correct. I also imagine that a lot of those 2016 Leave voters would vote remain if Leave was on "no deal" terms. It is clear why the no deal nutters do not want a second referendum. Surely one of our Brexit loving democracy posters will find a flaw with this - probably that only remain voters have died, or that there was a ground swell of support for leave from the 15-17 age group in 2016, or that lots of remain voters have seen the light now that the Tories have shown what a success we will be on our own.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2019 21:45:36 GMT 1
In the 2016 referendum Male 18-24 were 61% remain and Female 18-24 were 80% remain. For the over 65s it was Male 62% leave and Female 66% leave. If you assume that all those died were 65+, if you assume that the new 18-24 year olds voted the same way as that age group did before, and if you assume that nobody changes their mind; then you would have a net increase of 1.5m votes for remain and the result would be reversed. The assumptions are not 100% accurate obviously, but they are very likely directionally correct. I also imagine that a lot of those 2016 Leave voters would vote remain if Leave was on "no deal" terms. It is clear why the no deal nutters do not want a second referendum. Surely one of our Brexit loving democracy posters will find a flaw with this - probably that only remain voters have died, or that there was a ground swell of support for leave from the 15-17 age group in 2016, or that lots of remain voters have seen the light now that the Tories have shown what a success we will be on our own. Or that those now of age to vote are looking forward to the NHS getting an extra £350m per week when we leave the EU.
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Drew
Midland League Division One
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Post by Drew on Jul 2, 2019 21:54:53 GMT 1
Isn't it strange how the only people who always claim people have 'changed their mind' are 2016 remain voters who most definitely haven't changed their mind themsevles. Funny that.
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